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WWIII Return of the Ruskie

We'll have to agree to differ then. If the West goes on the offensive - and make no mistake, that's what even a "no fly zone" by itself would amount to, because it'd have to be enforced and that would involve armed exchanges - Putin will be backed into that corner far more quickly and irrevocably. The result would be to unite even a reluctant Russian public behind him and a general European war, whether conventional or otherwise. Neither Ukraine nor anyone else would benefit from that.
 
Only NATO Can Save Putin
The odds of a palace coup against Putin are already low; the odds of such a move while Russia is at war with NATO are even lower.
By Tom Nichols
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Getty; The Atlantic
MARCH 17, 2022
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About the author: Tom Nichols is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and the author of its newsletter Peacefield.
Sign up for Tom’s newsletter, Peacefield, here.
Russian President Vladimir Putin is in trouble. Despite his limited gains on the ground in Ukraine, he is facing strategic defeat in a war that no one (including me) would have expected him to lose. The vaunted Russian army has turned out to be a hollow force whose major skill sets seem to be bullying its own conscripts and killing foreign civilians. The Russian air force has underperformed even the lowest expectations; perhaps Russian pilots should have spent more time getting training and logging flying hours instead of doing fancy maneuvers at foreign air shows. At home, Putin distrusts his own security services and is apparently purging some of his top spies. The Russian people are going into the streets, prompting the regime to arrest thousands. The Russian economy is in a deep freeze and is likely to stay there for years.
Only one military force in the world can save Putin from utter humiliation now: NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. NATO intervention in Russia’s war on Ukraine could halt that country’s barbarous attacks. But it would mean war between Putin’s regime and the West, and this war would be such a gift to Putin that we should expect that he will soon do everything he can to provoke it.
The U.S. and Europe should resist such provocations.
First and foremost, NATO intervention would help Putin by allowing him to rally his nation and impose even harsher measures to suffocate dissent. Millions of Russians clearly want nothing to do with this fratricidal war, which is one reason Putin has been desperate to keep them from hearing anything about it other than weird Soviet-era cant about neo-Nazis and weapons of mass destruction. If NATO were to become involved, however, Putin’s regime would gladly play footage of Russian men being blasted to pieces by U.S., British, and other allied jets. (Americans who think that a “no-fly zone” would not require attacking land targets, perhaps even in Russia, are deluding themselves.) And even if the Germans were not participants, Russia would almost certainly fabricate videos of German jets attacking Russian military units to play on the obvious and reflexive nationalistic anger that many Russians will feel at such images.
Brian Klaas: Vladimir Putin has fallen into the dictator trap
Putin knows that the term NATO can still produce a visceral response in Russia. NATO is a traditional enemy—and one many Russians have blamed for their troubles in the past. NATO jets streaking over Ukrainian skies will silence at least some of the protests, and give Putin’s supporters a bigger cudgel when they widen the fascist beatdown of the last Russians who refuse to accept the war.
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Inside the Kremlin, meanwhile, Putin could likewise use NATO’s intervention to move against any possible dissent or hesitation. As Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addressed the U.S. Congress yesterday morning, Putin was in Moscow raging away on Russian television against those rich Russians residing abroad “who cannot live without foie gras” and who have now become “traitors and bastards” because they are “mentally” against Russia.
Many of those rich Russians living abroad are the childrenand mistresses—of Putin’s inner circle. The Kremlin boss was thus firing a warning shot over the heads of his own sycophants as well as the oligarchs whose pursuit of wealth he has enabled: I expect your loyalty, and I know where you and your families live. A war with NATO would make such threats seem patriotic rather than paranoid. The odds of a palace coup against Putin are already low; the odds of such a move while Russia is at war with NATO are even lower.
Putin could also use NATO’s participation in the war to override objections in the Kremlin or the Russian defense ministry regarding the use of nuclear weapons. Russian elites who might quail at the idea of deploying nuclear bombs against innocent Ukrainians will be harder pressed to explain their opposition to using such weapons against the NATO air bases from which jets are flying into combat, killing Russian soldiers and turning Russia’s mighty tanks into flaming wrecks.
Although some observers may believe that Putin would fold before he approaches the nuclear threshold, and others worry that even the smallest NATO action will inevitably spark World War III, such arguments at both extremes ignore the role of chance and risk. A nuclear crisis is not an orderly duel or a game with rules, but rather a maelstrom of poor information, conflicting signals, and highly charged emotions. To make matters worse, Putin has always been a poor strategist, a risk-taker who foolishly sets in motion—as he has done in Ukraine—forces he cannot control.
In any case, even if Putin is too deluded to think about such risks, the rest of us must consider the dangers of ordering the largest military coalition in human history into battle against a disorganized and battered army led by incompetent officers and commanded by an isolated and delusional president. Putting so many military assets in play, with combat breaking out all over Europe, could spark a catastrophe that neither we nor Putin intended. The danger is not that the Russian war on Ukraine becomes a replay of 1939, in which a coalition must stop a mad dictator at all costs, but that a Russia-NATO war becomes a nuclear version of 1914, in which all the combatants would find themselves moving from a crisis none of them expected into a cataclysm none of them wanted.
Anne Applebaum: America needs a better plan to fight autocracy
So what can the U.S. do? We can keep providing the Ukrainians with the weapons they need to defend themselves. We can keep strangling the Russian economy so that Putin cannot fund his war machine. We can continue beefing up NATO forces and defenses. We can make better investments in U.S. and allied defenses. Perhaps we can even open NATO membership to other nations, including Finland and Sweden, now that Putin himself has made a case for an expanded alliance that is more ironclad and convincing than even NATO’s most ardent advocates could have made decades ago.
Putin is losing, and he knows it. Rather than finding a way out of his own mess, he is unwinding nearly 30 years of Russian diplomatic, economic, political, and even military development. Worse, his loss is at the hands of the Ukrainians, whose army he thought would collapse under the first barrage of Russian artillery, whose government he thought would flee in terror, and whose people he thought would greet him as a liberator.
The Russia that will emerge from this war will be weaker and poorer than the Russia that opened fire on Ukrainian innocents, on brother and sister Slavs, last month—but only if we keep our heads and do not allow the conflict to engulf all of Europe. This is why the United States and NATO must resist Russian provocations, which already include war crimes and atrocities, and which soon could become even more extreme with “false flag” operations that might bring chemical weapons into play.
The body count is going to grow. But a NATO intervention would solve almost all of Putin’s problems, and create dangers we cannot predict.

Tom Nichols is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and the author of its newsletter Peacefield.

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We'll have to agree to differ then. If the West goes on the offensive - and make no mistake, that's what even a "no fly zone" by itself would amount to, because it'd have to be enforced and that would involve armed exchanges - Putin will be backed into that corner far more quickly and irrevocably. The result would be to unite even a reluctant Russian public behind him and a general European war, whether conventional or otherwise. Neither Ukraine nor anyone else would benefit from that.

I also get the feeling that Putin is looking for exactly that. He's basically said, leave us be or be prepared to feel the consequences. But the sums don't add up. His armies have struggled in the Ukraine, so he has no real military strength to call on if NATO do go in. Which goes back to the same root fears, either someone has his back if it all goes to shit, or he really is prepared to go all out.
 


You could not make this shit up. I'm really starting to think this whole thing could have ben averted if he had access to... I don't know, an Internet forum where he could bitch how white Christian men are always the victims and share his favourite conspiracy theories from Fox News. That's ALL there is to it.
 


You could not make this shit up. I'm really starting to think this whole thing could have ben averted if he had access to... I don't know, an Internet forum where he could bitch how white Christian men are always the victims and share his favourite conspiracy theories from Fox News. That's ALL there is to it.


Are we certain Dantes isn’t Putin?

Loves Trump, hates Biden, hates the woke west and would happily destroy the world!!!
 
Slightly surprised by Russia's announcement today that they will concentrate on the Dombas eastern region. This is effectively a "phased withdrawal". Or to put in bluntly a retreat. They already have a semblance of control in these regions. Fighting has gone there since well before 2014. The self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's republic.

If they pull out of Maruipol and Ukraine controls Kherson. Does it mean Odesa if off the Russian menu. Pulling out of these areas will be like a major defeat especially if they back off from Kiev. I'm not totally convinced this is the case but it can only be because their ground forces aren't up to the job.

If in the next 2/3 weeks their forces retreat all the way back to the Dombas region Putin will have gained next to nothing and in the process put his country back 50 years and the subsequent damage to the Russian economy will be severe. Will Putin be under pressure from the Politburo. I can't see him surviving.
 
I’d imagine a few Russian generals will be “re-assigned”, Putin will claim it’s a massive victory and he’ll start the process of consolidating and waiting for another opportunity to “go again” in a few years time.
 
Slightly surprised by Russia's announcement today that they will concentrate on the Dombas eastern region. This is effectively a "phased withdrawal". Or to put in bluntly a retreat. They already have a semblance of control in these regions. Fighting has gone there since well before 2014. The self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's republic.

If they pull out of Maruipol and Ukraine controls Kherson. Does it mean Odesa if off the Russian menu. Pulling out of these areas will be like a major defeat especially if they back off from Kiev. I'm not totally convinced this is the case but it can only be because their ground forces aren't up to the job.

If in the next 2/3 weeks their forces retreat all the way back to the Dombas region Putin will have gained next to nothing and in the process put his country back 50 years and the subsequent damage to the Russian economy will be severe. Will Putin be under pressure from the Politburo. I can't see him surviving.
Smoke and mirrors. If they were truly retreating, they wouldn't be bombing other cities.

Note the 'initial phase' being used.

It's to make it look like a success back home.
 
If they do retreat, the official line will be that they succeeded in getting rid of the Nazis and have decided to let their Ukrainian kin to have their land back.
 


You could not make this shit up. I'm really starting to think this whole thing could have ben averted if he had access to... I don't know, an Internet forum where he could bitch how white Christian men are always the victims and share his favourite conspiracy theories from Fox News. That's ALL there is to it.


This is exactly what they said they'd do thirty years ago. Try to dismantle the West by getting all the kids to stop studying physics and start arguing about gender etc. It's no surprise he's going on about it.
 
I think the big problem with Russia now is it's a broken country and a pariah, the sanctions etc will remain in place and they'll have to pay to rebuild what they broke in Ukraine, which while fair are the exact conditions that led to the rise of Hitler.
 
This is exactly what they said they'd do thirty years ago. Try to dismantle the West by getting all the kids to stop studying physics and start arguing about gender etc. It's no surprise he's going on about it.

Narrator: the kids stopped studying physics and argued about gender
 
Russia has various resources China and India want, and they're currently available on the cheap. That's all there is to it. China will get there first because they're currently miles ahead of India. If everything plays out like the last thousand years China will become the dominant player, outsource everything to India, who'll get their turn in a hundred years or so. Russia don't feature.
 
It was occupied by us and a few others and ended up splitting into two. Imagine occupying Russia.
It’s a modern occupation. Look at the state of their retail industry. The middle classes went all
in on western goods (and services) and they’re now fucked. Western companies are going to be wary of going back into Russia which will deprive the citizens of those luxuries they gobbled up pre-war.

I’ve described my point poorly and can’t be arsed fixing it. Just ignore me.
 
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Are we certain Dantes isn’t Putin?

Loves Trump, hates Biden, hates the woke west and would happily destroy the world!!!
Do you seriously believe that if Dantes had access to weaponary (Nuclear,/Chemical/Biologicial) that he wouldn't have tried them out by now?
 
The West will want Putin's arse on toast for War crimes..I mean I'd offer to nip over To Mossy and nick him but I've put me seeds in now and I've got the back fence to paint. Nevertheless the swine should face justice. More than likely his own people will topple him.

But what a mess Ukraine is in, bombed to bits, million scattered all over the place, although Johnson conned NATO on that front. The rebuild will take a decade..be 100's of years before Ukraine trust Russia again that's a given.
 
Recommend reading this thread - maybe the fears of a global wheat shortage as a result of this war are overblown:

 
Being suggested that Putin's aim is to split Ukraine with a North/South divide. or more like an East/West divide. As most of Eastern Ukraine speak Russia. And that this is what is behind the announcement that his forces will concentrate on the Dombas region. I suspect he could still pepper the rest of Ukraine with rocket attacks. Whilst trying to encroach further East along the Russian coast line on round to Odesa.

If this is his strategy along with offering peace talks or letting an intermediary, like Turkey do the bidding, it won't stop the sanctions, but It might prevent further sanctions.

The West knew Putin was never going to accept every last country bar none join NATO and the EU. This has been the main issue. Should the West have been more inclusive with Russia. With the EU widening their tentacles Russia was being isolated militarily through NATO and economically through the EU. Western strategist knew a showdown with Putin was coming. Putin wouldn't act with Trump in the WH because Putin couldn't be sure how Trump would react.

Putin doesn't hold all the cards, the mess his Army has made of the job has weakened his position. He must make it look like he has gained and defied the West and has reasserted Russia's might. But in truth it has exposed Russia's relatively weak military. NATO could easily overcome and defeat Russia on the conventional battlefield. Putin on the backfoot might be worse than when he thought he was winning.
 
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