what has this season taught you?

[Dreambeliever]

Lallana has started 25 matches, Henderson's started 42.

I'm loathe to get into a stat-debate as it serves very little purpose, but it's worthwhile ensuring we're comparing apples to apples Dreamy. Up until the end of February, Lallana had the best minute-per-goal and minute-per-assist ratio of anyone at the club. He was in the top 15 in the league for it too if memory serves me correctly. So, contrary to your judgement, he does "score and create goals" when he plays. Since then he's been injured and out of the side.

His minutes per goal ratio even now is still better than Henderson's, not that it matters to me but you brought him into this debate in some inglorious attempt at making a point, so I thought I'd set you straight.

I can't help with what you "expected" though unfortunately.

Where to begin.

Lallana was bought to score and create goals. Comparing his sh*te stats in this department to the rest of our teams sh*te stats hardly proves he's been a success. It just proves he's been less sh*te than other players (bar, Coutinho, Sterling & Henderson)

He was our big summer signing. With that came expectation that he would score and create a lot of goals. The fact he had already done it at Southampton lead most people to expect him to hit the ground running. Injuries at the start of the season aside he simply hasn't produced anything near enough for his transfer to be seen as a success.

I compared him to Henderson to show you that even though Henderson is seen as hard running, energetic box to box midfielder (yes they do still exist) Lallana still doesn't exactly blow him out of the water. Lallana's goal and assist return should blow Henderson's away. Even taking the extra games away, Henderson smashes Lallana on the assists stat and is comparable on the goal stat. Now considering Lallana was never a high scoring midfielder to begin with you would at least expect him to have a high assist rate. He doesn't and when that's what you are bought for and don't deliver of course people will be disappointed.

Swansea at home aside I struggle to think of games where Lallana was the stand out player in our team. Again at 26m you would expect him to be the stand out more often that not in 30 odd games.

You had a right go at Coutinho for not producing important goals in big games, well where is the finger pointing at Lallana? He's produced f&ck all in the big games when we needed him most.

He's a very capable footballer, we can all see that, but this season has been a big disappointment and he is definitely one of the reasons why along with some other poorer transfers this season has been sh&te.

 

[Dreambeliever]

I quite like Lallana. I also liked Benayoun. I thought we would be getting a significantly better player than him for the price we paid. Hopefully he will turn into one next season. Still loving those Cruyff turns though.

I loved Yossi, inexpensive, always played well and could score when played in the right position. I remember arcing on about wanting him played in the hole. Then one week he was and scored a hat trick. Good old rafa though saw that as a good time to rotate (rest) him and didn't play him there again.

 

[Rosco]

Screenshot for future embarrassment.

I look forward to it.

I was the only person on here who thought giving a 5 year £120k deal to a 28 year old Reina was a bad idea.

I haven't seen any screenshots of that come back to haunt me

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Some interesting tales of crockery:

Joe Cole - never played lower division football (season on loan to Lille shouldn't count, should it?)

Kieron Dyer - 1 month out on loan to Ipswich in the Championship at age 32; played another 1.5 seasons in the PL before going back down

Jermaine Jenas - 3 months out on loan to Forest in the Championship at age 30; signed by QPR and played remaining season in the PL; relegated and stayed with QPR for a season

Ledley King - never

Jonathan Woodgate - went down to play in the Championship at age 32

Abou Diaby - turns 29 this May; still at Arsenal, somehow, and may even get a new contract (yes, weird)

Michael Essien - never

Harry Kewell - went to the Turkish League at age 30

Patrick Berger - went on loan to Stoke in the Championship at 32 or 33

Daniel Agger - went to the Danish league at age 30

Darren Fletcher - still in the league at age 31

Tomas Rosicky - alive and well at age 34

 

[Rosco]

That just shows you don't understand why I think he'll be in the lower divisions (again) for the final third of his career.

It's not because of injuries. It's because the Premiership requires a level of athleticism that at his peak he barely has. Once he hits the downslope - and it may have just started - there's only one way he goes.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

That just shows you don't understand why I think he'll be in the lower divisions (again) for the final third of his career.

It's not because of injuries. It's because the Premiership requires a level of athleticism that at his peak he barely has. Once he hits the downslope - and it may have just started - there's only one way he goes.

Well, I'd assumed that you were suggesting injuries from the "barely physically up to playing top level football regularly" part. Okay, fair enough. I suppose your judgment here is probably along the same lines as Ferguson's assessment that Henderson would have problems in his career due to his running style / posture. I guess we'll see how both of these pan out.

 

[Rosco]

I don't understand the Henderson issue to be honest. He'll be a top level footballer into his thirties.

When I say athleticism - pace, power, agility, durability etc etc are all included. And I believe that to play wide or as an attacking midfielder effectively in the Premiership requires pace and agility. Lallana doesn't have any pace, so agility is what he relies on to beat players - and I believe the studies that show agility typically peaks at 25. When he loses that agility I'm not sure his technical ability will be enough to keep him being an effective player at this level.

Add into that, I feel at the end of his career he'll be seen as a perfectly decent player. I always believe those average level footballers have about a three year window at their peak. Lallana has probably had at least two of those if not three

Lallana could extend his top level career by learning to play deeper, but I'd still guess he'll be a Championship player when he's 30


(I fully expect people to argue against the above by picking the world's best players as examples of players that don't fit thay criteria, as if Lallana is a good comparison for them in any way)

 

[jexykrodic]

What a dystopian forum it's developed into when we're debating age/agility ratio for a new player and his unstoppable slide into the lower leagues.

I'm always up for giving a second chance but perhaps my optimism is misplaced.

 

[Rosco]

What a dystopian forum it's developed into when we're debating age/agility ratio for a new player and his unstoppable slide into the lower leagues.

I'm always up for giving a second chance but perhaps my optimism is misplaced.

We'll see.

Maybe he'll turn out to be as good as Suarez - or maybe even a little bit better given he cost a little bit more

 

[Ryan]

Where to begin.

Lallana was bought to score and create goals. Comparing his sh*te stats in this department to the rest of our teams sh*te stats hardly proves he's been a success. It just proves he's been less sh*te than other players (bar, Coutinho, Sterling & Henderson)

He was our big summer signing. With that came expectation that he would score and create a lot of goals. The fact he had already done it at Southampton lead most people to expect him to hit the ground running. Injuries at the start of the season aside he simply hasn't produced anything near enough for his transfer to be seen as a success.

I compared him to Henderson to show you that even though Henderson is seen as hard running, energetic box to box midfielder (yes they do still exist) Lallana still doesn't exactly blow him out of the water. Lallana's goal and assist return should blow Henderson's away. Even taking the extra games away, Henderson smashes Lallana on the assists stat and is comparable on the goal stat. Now considering Lallana was never a high scoring midfielder to begin with you would at least expect him to have a high assist rate. He doesn't and when that's what you are bought for and don't deliver of course people will be disappointed.

Swansea at home aside I struggle to think of games where Lallana was the stand out player in our team. Again at 26m you would expect him to be the stand out more often that not in 30 odd games.

You had a right go at Coutinho for not producing important goals in big games, well where is the finger pointing at Lallana? He's produced f&ck all in the big games when we needed him most.

He's a very capable footballer, we can all see that, but this season has been a big disappointment and he is definitely one of the reasons why along with some other poorer transfers this season has been sh&te.

You started out brandishing stats, which I made a mockery of.

And now we've got a fucking editorial based largely on your 'thoughts'.

We've been here before dreamy.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Lallana has only started 25 games and scored 5 goals, that's a 1m per game, and 5m per goal and about the same per assist. That's not including his wages.

He was bought to score and create, and he hasn't done it anywhere near often enough this season. At his age you don't get time to adapt and settle in, you need instant impact.

It's not been a total disaster, but it's been very disappointing. In hindsight, the money could have been better spent elsewhere.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I don't understand the Henderson issue to be honest. He'll be a top level footballer into his thirties.

When I say athleticism - pace, power, agility, durability etc etc are all included. And I believe that to play wide or as an attacking midfielder effectively in the Premiership requires pace and agility. Lallana doesn't have any pace, so agility is what he relies on to beat players - and I believe the studies that show agility typically peaks at 25. When he loses that agility I'm not sure his technical ability will be enough to keep him being an effective player at this level.

Interesting. What are recent classic examples of players like that, i.e. doing what you said would happen to Lallana?

 

[Rosco]

I have him in the at the bottom of the category of average to good English attacking midfielders / wingers:

So the comparisons are players like:

Stewart Downing - age 30 now, had his career year four years ago. Above average technically, pace and agility absent now.

Aaron Lennon - age 27, not what he was in his early twenties because the pace is waning and his technical ability has always been lacking. (2 caps for England in the last four years)


Adam Johnson - arguably his peak began when he was at City and carried through to Sunderland - now 27, I don't watch him enough to say whether he's got enough technical ability to survive - but suffice to say I wouldn't recommend signing him for any Premiership club

Ashley Young - peaked at Villa in his early to mid twenties. He's always been a good set piece taker so he'd put up stats but he's not the danger he once was.

I feel like I have to say I'm not saying he's the same type of player as those - but I think his career trajectory will be the same albeit that he has both a lower ceiling and a lower floor than those players. Mainly because of his limited athletic ability, he's a nice technical footballer but not many attacking players succeed in the Premiership without some agility, acceleration, pace etc

 

[cloggypop]

Age doesn't really come into it with Adam Johnson.

 

[Halmeister]

http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/so-lallana.51780/#post-1152937

A Lallana thread from July. Some of the posts in there (not mine, of course) are cringe/shudder worthy.

Sorry if this comes across a bit Modo and "I told you so." I actually kind of agree with Rosco's point, though I still think he'll be in the Prem at 30, but not at a top club and not playing at a top level.

 

[Rosco]

Adrian Durham thinks he'll be better than Gerrard, so with such intellectual heavyweights against me I could be way off the mark

 

[Halmeister]

Adrian Durham thinks he'll be better than Gerrard, so with such intellectual heavyweights against me I could be way off the mark

What? Like better than Gerrard has been over his career or the Gerrard now?

 

[Rosco]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-s-one-underrated-players-Premier-League.html

 

[Frogfish]

So the comparisons are players like:

Stewart Downing - age 30 now, had his career year four years ago. Above average technically, pace and agility absent now.

Aaron Lennon - age 27, not what he was in his early twenties because the pace is waning and his technical ability has always been lacking. (2 caps for England in the last four years)

Adam Johnson - arguably his peak began when he was at City and carried through to Sunderland - now 27, I don't watch him enough to say whether he's got enough technical ability to survive - but suffice to say I wouldn't recommend signing him for any Premiership club

Ashley Young - peaked at Villa in his early to mid twenties. He's always been a good set piece taker so he'd put up stats but he's not the danger he once was.

All wingers. Lallana is not a winger.

Start again.

 

[Rosco]

Ha, I put my last paragraph in especially for you.


I don't need to try again. I've outlined exactly where I think this will go and why. If you want to tell me why the opposite is the case and give me the players you think he profiles like I'm all ears

 

[Hansern]

Both Young and Downing have had a very good season despite being 30.
Downing with his best season in 4 years. 5 goals and 8 assists.
Young is playing his best football since his first season when he joined Utd 3 years ago.

I think you'll find there are other variabels to this than age and agility.

 

[cloggypop]

Is it wages?

 

[Dreambeliever]

You started out brandishing stats, which I made a mockery of.

And now we've got a fucking editorial based largely on your 'thoughts'.

We've been here before dreamy.

How exactly did you make a mockery of them?

Having the best goals per min ratio when you have scored 5 fucking goals is hardly impressive.

As you said yourself Lallana 'makes things happen every time he plays'

He's played over 30 times and make something happen 9 times.

Hendo in 49 games has made something happen in 21 games.

That's worse than 1 in 3 games for Lallana and almost 1 in 2 games for Hendo.

That is assuming when you say 'makes something happen' you are referring to scoring or creating a goal because I'm pretty sure you don't mean beating a man on the halfway line....

So in fact you have only made a mockery of yourself.

 

[Leo]

How exactly did you make a mockery of them?

Having the best goals per min ratio when you have scored 5 fucking goals is hardly impressive.

As you said yourself Lallana 'makes things happen every time he plays'

He's played over 30 times and make something happen 9 times.

Hendo in 53 games has made something happen in 21 games.

That's worse than 1 in 3 games for Lallana and almost 1 in 2 games for Hendo.

That is assuming when you say 'makes something happen' you are referring to scoring or creating a goal because I'm pretty sure you don't mean beating a man on the halfway line....

So in fact you have only made a mockery of yourself.

I'd do the math on that Henderson bit there again lad.

 

[Dreambeliever]

I'd do the math on that Henderson bit there again lad.

Had him in at 53 games as the stats I was looking at included 4 games for England. The rest is accurate.

8 goals + 13 assists = 21

49 appearances

21/49 X 100/1 = 43%~ which is almost 1 in 2

 

[Ryan]

Had him in at 53 games as the stats I was looking at included 4 games for England. The rest is accurate.

8 goals + 13 assists = 21

49 appearances

21/49 X 100/1 = 43%~ which is almost 1 in 2

Would you look at this eye-rape of a post.

Dreamy, what are you doing?

 

[MomoWASright]

Adam Lallana admits he hasn’t lived up to his £24million price tag – but the Liverpoolmidfielder is determined to finish the season with a flourish by lifting the FA Cup.
The England international faces a battle to be fit for Sunday’s semi-final with Aston Villa at Wembley as he continues his recovery from a groin injury.
It’s the latest setback to hamper Lallana during his first campaign with the Reds. He missed pre-season with knee ligament damage and has struggled to reproduce the form which secured him his dream move to Anfield from Southampton. He has scored just five goals in 35 appearances.
“It’s not gone great,” Lallana said.

“It started off with injury and I’ve had another over the last few weeks with a few more in between.
“It’s been quite frustrating if I’m being honest and I haven’t been out on the pitch as much as I’d have liked.
“Getting injured and missing pre-season I feel played a big part in my recurring injuries. It’s a very important part for a footballer to get the basis of the fitness in.

“But I want to be fully fit for the run-in, we’ve still got an outside chance of making the top four, and that’s something I want to be a part of. And obviously the last game of the season is the FA Cup final.
“I’m looking to come back in next season, get a good basis in with my fitness and kick on from there.“
Liverpool’s campaign has been full of ups and downs. Brendan Rodgers’ side transformed their fortunes after enduring a miserable opening few months of the season.
Switching to a 3-4-2-1 formation kick-started their revival but in the past two wins over Blackburn and Newcastle the manager has reverted to 4-3-3.
“We knew it wasn’t going to be easy with the amount of new recruits that came in. But I think we have proved to everyone and ourselves that we are a good team,” Lallana told the theFA.com
“We’ve put in some great performances over the second half of the season and we’ll be looking to build on that over the next couple of years. It would be the icing on the cake to win on Sunday and get to the final.
“It’s been exciting playing in the new formation, but I feel we can utilise a number of different formations which is always handy to have. The last couple of games we have reverted back to the old system, but it gives us the opportunity to change and switch back if that’s what the manager wants to do.”
Tim Sherwood has improved Villa since his appointment in February and Lallana says the Midlanders command respect. However, he insists that if Liverpool perform how they can then they will march on to the final.
“They’ve picked up and had a great result at Tottenham last week. That shows they are definitely in good form,” he said,
“(Christian) Benteke is finding the net again so we have to keep our eye on him, but we’ll be concentrating on ourselves and playing well. We have enough in our team to win.
“We said at the beginning of the season our aim was to get to the final of a competition and win some silverware. We are still in that position at the moment. Liverpool is known for winning lots of silverware and I think it’s important that we continue that this year.”

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/adam-lallana-havent-lived-up-9062083
[/qoute]

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Lallana is wrong! 😉

 

[cloggypop]

Lallana should have told the Echo about his goals per minute ratio.

 

[Rosco]

There's nothing worse than the player himself coming and out and saying that you lot defending him are wrong.