What has changed? Andy & Ryan debate on

[manwithnoname]

Don't be absurd! You said it - he's actually played 6 games (most of them subbed) in a new league in a new country. Blimey! It's not rocket science lad. He's a starter for Brazil FFS. He's hardly going to be shit is he.....

So was Kleberson.

 

[Oncy]

I posted this elsewhere, but seems as if this might be a better place for it:

Not sure I like all these references to Klopp moulding and shaping cast-offs and unknowns. We're Liverpool, not Battersea Dogs Home. FSG surely know by now that, good as Klopp is, he needs lots of money to make Liverpool Champions, and not simply hope that he can recreate his glorious - if obviously unsustainable - two or three year stint at Dortmund.

Because he won't. Not without money.

The Spurs game encapsulated that perfectly; a short 20 minute burst of excellence and energy, followed by 70 minutes when the energy levels dropped, and Spurs' superior players took hold of the game.

Dembele was, by a clear margin, the best midfielder on the pitch, Delle Ali not far behind, and Eriksen was the most dangerous and creative attacking player.
We need Benteke, Henderson and Sturridge back, and about 4 new players.

Yeah im just about there. He isnt going to make any of these players suddenly become world class, he can coach systems and over time that will bare some fruit, but as for now its the same mediocre players learning a new system and perhaps new levels of intensity (although I very much doubt Brendan didnt want them to hunt the ball down and work hard).
I agree also with your point regarding the Arsenal game. This game was similar to that, if anything in that game we maintained the performance levels a little better.

Whilst the fact we ran more KM is inarguable what that changed in relation to performance or result is negligible.

Im chuffed we have Klopp. Im unconvinced the fix wont be a long one.
That said Arsenal, United, Spurs, Everton Stoke away all out of the way before Christmas with City and Chelsea not far behind SHOULD put us in good shape to start a run after Chrismas when changes to style and hopefully personel take effect.

 

[Red Astaire]

So was Kleberson.

I can't really recall how bad he was for Utd but I do remember he was struck down by two pretty nasty injuries. He hardly played for them I thought.

 

[Hansern]

Don't be absurd! You said it - he's actually played 6 games (most of them subbed) in a new league in a new country. Blimey! It's not rocket science lad. He's a starter for Brazil FFS. He's hardly going to be shit is he.....

Klopp rates Firmino very highly. He'll get the best out of him, and hopefully we'll see some good performances from him as soon as possible.
The lad is boss though. Really boss.

 

[manwithnoname]

I can't really recall how bad he was for Utd but I do remember he was struck down by two pretty nasty injuries. He hardly played for them I thought.

He was irretrievably shit. But the list of players who "should have been ace and were irretrievably shit" for their new club is very, very long. All teams have had them, United have endured quite a few: Kleberson, Anderson, Veron (for two clubs in the Premiership), Forlan, Djemba-Djemba.

There's been loads of "should have been ace and were irretrievably shit" around the Premiership: Shevchenko, Torres (Chelsea), Quaresma, Robinho, Reyes.

And we've had more than our own fair share: Aquilani, Morientes, Babel, Carroll, Markovic, Cisse, Keane....arguably not many of them actually came with a fantastic pedigree, but you get my drift.

 

[Red Astaire]

I get your point but disagree about Markovic. An underwhelming 1st season but he has potential. Again I guess we'll see.

 

[mark1975]

Lovren went from being one of the best defenders in the league to being a joke. He must have been doing something right though for us to splash £20m on him, right?

I'm not saying Klopp will turn Lovren around but he has played better than he has shown here especially in a system that suits him. At the start of last season, I don't think we had a settled back four for weeks. It was almost changing with every game. How is any defensive unit suppose to build up any kind of understanding?

I had some concerns when he arrived, because he had gathered a similar reputation in France for being poor and more than capable of regular mistakes. Coming in on the back of only one good season in the Premiership, for £20m, smacked of being a gamble. Time will tell and it's VERY rare I write players off this early, I just don't see it with him at all though. Everything about him just seems wrong.

 

[mark1975]

The point stands anyway, regardless of whether we find out that a few players are more upto the task than we first thought, we need players. We need a backbone. Keeper, Centre Back, Midfielder. And if our injuries continue up front, a striker too, at this rate.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Yeah im just about there. He isnt going to make any of these players suddenly become world class, he can coach systems and over time that will bare some fruit, but as for now its the same mediocre players learning a new system and perhaps new levels of intensity (although I very much doubt Brendan didnt want them to hunt the ball down and work hard).
I agree also with your point regarding the Arsenal game. This game was similar to that, if anything in that game we maintained the performance levels a little better.

Whilst the fact we ran more KM is inarguable what that changed in relation to performance or result is negligible.

Im chuffed we have Klopp. Im unconvinced the fix wont be a long one.
That said Arsenal, United, Spurs, Everton Stoke away all out of the way before Christmas with City and Chelsea not far behind SHOULD put us in good shape to start a run after Chrismas when changes to style and hopefully personel take effect.

 

[Modo]

Had it been any other premiership team outside the top 4 we probably would have won.
Spurs were just as up for it as we were.

 

[Hansern]

Interesting to hear Carra and Nevilles views on the game. They noticed a big difference just in the first game and after 3 days of training.
For those who cant see anything at all that has changed with Klopp I recommend watching it.

 

[mark1975]

Interesting to hear Carra and Nevilles views on the game. They noticed a big difference just in the first game and after 3 days of training.
For those who cant see anything at all that has changed with Klopp I recommend watching it.

It's difficult to establish what's down to three days training (with many players not even back with the squad that long) and what's down to a change in attitude just because of a new manager that needs to be impressed. I don't think that's an unfair observation or that it's *that* wide of the mark. People are getting a bit carried away, it was an improvement but was it really that different to game against Arsenal? We nearly scored, they had a few efforts that on another day would have gone in and seen us on the end of a less favourable result. The work rate was as applaudable in both games, but it wasn't the finished product, we lacked a cutting edge and we rode our luck too.

Like I said, it's encouraging, but there's a long way to go yet. This squad has already shown itself to have a brittle mentality. Without a cutting edge there's only so long we can go with sheer grit trying to get us results.

 

[Hansern]

 

[ctlovesred]

It's difficult to establish what's down to three days training (with many players not even back with the squad that long) and what's down to a change in attitude just because of a new manager that needs to be impressed. I don't think that's an unfair observation or that it's *that* wide of the mark. People are getting a bit carried away, it was an improvement but was it really that different to game against Arsenal? We nearly scored, they had a few efforts that on another day would have gone in and seen us on the end of a less favourable result. The work rate was as applaudable in both games, but it wasn't the finished product, we lacked a cutting edge and we rode our luck too.

Like I said, it's encouraging, but there's a long way to go yet. This squad has already shown itself to have a brittle mentality. Without a cutting edge there's only so long we can go with sheer grit trying to get us results.

True, but our attack lacked: Henderson, Benteke, Ings, Firmino and Sturridge. It was essentially Coutinho + Origi against their back 5. Never going to expect much with that crew. A solid draw with the emphasis on defending as a unit and pressuring all over the pitch = success in my book.

 

[tony]

I very much liked the fact the full backs were actually in their own half when Spurs were on the ball.

 

[moron]

I am glad Wiz has started this thread of debate - and OnceyFuck did respond to Ryan with what many of us were actually thinking. My take on it is this:-

1) What we did in the first 15-20 minutes of the game is something we did relentlessly in that season with Suarez.

2) After those 20 minutes we turned to bollox like we have done for nearly all of this season, and most of last season. By bollox - I am referring to those mis-placed passes, clueless in the final third.

3) We looked better when Ibe came on up front - he had the ability to take on their defense somewhat but it was really too late in the game.

Overall - I found most of our front attacking players frustrating to watch in that game, and I need to ask why the fuck are they starting to run around like that now and do fuck all last season, and most of this season with Rodgers ?

 

[Red Astaire]

I had some concerns when he arrived, because he had gathered a similar reputation in France for being poor and more than capable of regular mistakes. Coming in on the back of only one good season in the Premiership, for £20m, smacked of being a gamble. Time will tell and it's VERY rare I write players off this early, I just don't see it with him at all though. Everything about him just seems wrong.

Give him a chance under Klopp mate - Then see what he can do. If he's still shite then point proven but neither of us want that right? We really want him to be boss. Well I do anyway. 20Mill spunked up the wall is no fun for anyone.... 😉

 

[Oncy]

I am glad Wiz has started this thread of debate - and OnceyFuck did respond to Ryan with what many of us were actually thinking. My take on it is this:-

1) What we did in the first 15-20 minutes of the game is something we did relentlessly in that season with Suarez.

2) After those 20 minutes we turned to bollox like we have done for nearly all of this season, and most of last season. By bollox - I am referring to those mis-placed passes, clueless in the final third.

3) We looked better when Ibe came on up front - he had the ability to take on their defense somewhat but it was really too late in the game.

Overall - I found most of our front attacking players frustrating to watch in that game, and I need to ask why the fuck are they starting to run around like that now and do fuck all last season, and most of this season with Rodgers ?

Onceyfuck?
Are you either
A)A child
B)A handicapper
C)A cunt
D)All of the above (like Harvey)

 

[moron]

Onceyfuck?
Are you either
A)A child
B)A handicapper
C)A cunt
D)All of the above (like Harvey)[/QUOTE

For you I am D]

 

[Red Astaire]

Onceyfuck?


I was going to bring him up on that - WTF? Stupidest thing in this thread - And there has been a few!

 

[juniormember]

For people saying there was only a huge difference for 20 minutes..
How do you explain not only the total distance covered but the ridiculous 600 odd sprints from our team?
We went with Klopp's plan throughout the game.
We were just shit at attacking.

 

[Hansern]

hand·i·cap·per

(hăn′dē-kăp′ər)
n. Sports & Games
1. One who assigns handicaps.
2. One who predicts the winners in a horserace, especially one who publishes such predictions as a guide for bettors.


Mors, if you're b). Could you please post loads in the betting forum.

 

[cloggypop]

Harsh on Mors that.

 

[moron]

For people saying there was only a huge difference for 20 minutes..
How do you explain not only the total distance covered but the ridiculous 600 odd sprints from our team?
We went with Klopp's plan throughout the game.
We were just shit at attacking.

Yep simple - most of the sprinting done im the first 20 mins.

 

[Mamma Mia]

Yep simple - most of the sprinting done im the first 20 mins.

Simple, indeed.

 

[Best Believe It]

Unless Ryan posts on the next page, the thread needs to be renamed. Oncey is doing his fair share.

 

[manwithnoname]

I had some concerns when he arrived, because he had gathered a similar reputation in France for being poor and more than capable of regular mistakes. Coming in on the back of only one good season in the Premiership, for £20m, smacked of being a gamble. Time will tell and it's VERY rare I write players off this early, I just don't see it with him at all though. Everything about him just seems wrong.

I remember watching his debut, slightly delirious with sunstroke in a bar in Cyprus. Think we won 1-0 thanks to Sturridge. I quite enjoyed his exuberance as he galloped around the pitch like a drunk horse, chasing the ball around, and paying little attention to where he should actually position himself as a CB. But I put it down to nerves and excitement.

Then I realised that it was actually his normal playing style.

 

[mark1975]

I remember watching his debut, slightly delirious with sunstroke in a bar in Cyprus. Think we won 1-0 thanks to Sturridge. I quite enjoyed his exuberance as he galloped around the pitch like a drunk horse, chasing the ball around, and paying little attention to where he should actually position himself as a CB. But I put it down to nerves and excitement.

Then I realised that it was actually his normal playing style.

Yeah, similarly in the Dortmund friendly, he bossed it against Jurgen Klopp and his half fit team and I thought he was the dogs bollocks. Then he got made to look like a chump against his old club and the rest is history repeating itself.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I'm dying to hear what Ryan's thoughts were on Klopp's tactics before he went off on a strop.

 

[juniormember]

Yep simple - most of the sprinting done im the first 20 mins.

Riiight.