What has changed? Andy & Ryan debate on

[LeTallecWiz]

@Herr Onceared

Ive genuinely see NOTHING different from every other game.

@Ryan

What the fuck do you look at during football games, the crowd?

Honestly if you couldn't see anything different about how we played yesterday to the previous 3 years then you're fucking clueless. And you didn't have to be a fucking walking talking tactics board to notice anything tactically different about us yesterday, you just needed eyes and opposable thumbs.

Even if you'd only seen the first 3 minutes of the game that should have been enough for you.

@Herr Onceared

Interesting you should say that, because for the first 3 minutes, in fact for the first 15 minutes I thought there was a very clear and distinct differnce in our play, and then we reverted to type.
The clumsy passes, the lack of overlaps, the lazy throughballs, the crap end product, the sloppy mistakes at the back, the lack of decisiveness. I thought we were poor for 70 minutes of the game in an offensive way. Fair play we drew and stopped them scoring but lets face it they SHOULD have had three but for poor finiahing and a couple of wondersaves from Ming.
We played the same, made the same mistakes and it almost ended up with the same result.

I didnt really expect a massive difference, its ONE game, but what surprises me is how many seem to have seen one.
Your probably right, its probably just me being cynical.

You can respond here @Ryan

 

[manwithnoname]

I posted this elsewhere, but seems as if this might be a better place for it:

Not sure I like all these references to Klopp moulding and shaping cast-offs and unknowns. We're Liverpool, not Battersea Dogs Home. FSG surely know by now that, good as Klopp is, he needs lots of money to make Liverpool Champions, and not simply hope that he can recreate his glorious - if obviously unsustainable - two or three year stint at Dortmund.

Because he won't. Not without money.

The Spurs game encapsulated that perfectly; a short 20 minute burst of excellence and energy, followed by 70 minutes when the energy levels dropped, and Spurs' superior players took hold of the game.

Dembele was, by a clear margin, the best midfielder on the pitch, Delle Ali not far behind, and Eriksen was the most dangerous and creative attacking player.
We need Benteke, Henderson and Sturridge back, and about 4 new players.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

come on lads, don't troll this thread please.

I would really like to hear Ryan's views on this please. (and hopefully see the return of his super-duper tactical chalk board)

 

[Mors]

The play without the ball, for the entirety of the game, was different. Our pressing, our running, how players not near the action were responding, our positioning - everything. When we were on the ball is when we started to look like Rodgers mob. But we didn't have any threat at all from midfield upwards so it's not surprising, I expect that to change for the next game or next weekend.

 

[Skullflower]

We've got fuck all goal threat and that's not gonna change

 

[manwithnoname]

The play without the ball, for the entirety of the game, was different. Our pressing, our running, how players not near the action were responding, our positioning - everything. When we were on the ball is when we started to look like Rodgers mob. But we didn't have any threat at all from midfield upwards so it's not surprising, I expect that to change for the next game or next weekend.

How? They're the same players, and a lack of genuine quality and goal threat isn't going to be fixed by Klopp. Lallana, Lucas and Can may well run around a lot more, but they're not suddenly going to turn into Steven Gerrard or Xabi Alonso.


The system and work rate are hugely important factors, but they can only add so much. We need better players. Much better players.

 

[Mystic]

Skullflowers avatar is a little on the NSFW side isn't it?

 

[mom]

Is it a parody of Ryan's?

 

[Lippy]

Skullflowers avatar is a little on the NSFW side isn't it?

Aye. Have had to switch avatars off myself. He'll do anything for a little bit of attention though. He's needy

 

[Red Astaire]

I posted this elsewhere, but seems as if this might be a better place for it:

Not sure I like all these references to Klopp moulding and shaping cast-offs and unknowns. We're Liverpool, not Battersea Dogs Home. FSG surely know by now that, good as Klopp is, he needs lots of money to make Liverpool Champions, and not simply hope that he can recreate his glorious - if obviously unsustainable - two or three year stint at Dortmund.

Because he won't. Not without money.

The Spurs game encapsulated that perfectly; a short 20 minute burst of excellence and energy, followed by 70 minutes when the energy levels dropped, and Spurs' superior players took hold of the game.

Dembele was, by a clear margin, the best midfielder on the pitch, Delle Ali not far behind, and Eriksen was the most dangerous and creative attacking player.
We need Benteke, Henderson and Sturridge back, and about 4 new players.

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. Yes of course we need our injured players back. Benteke and Sturridge are back this week and Firmino the week after I think. The quality in the squad is there and surely they can be moulded to play in a certain way. Klopp seems the perfect person to do that. I guess we could do with strengthening in a few areas but it's not as drastic as some people make out. Give Klopp a chance to work with a fairly fully fit squad and let's see what happens. I'm sure he'll have it figured out by January what he needs etc.

By the way I'm with @Ryan on this one. It was so clear that we played better than we've done in months even without 4-5 first team players and practically no attack. 0-0 away to a good Spurs team was a bloody good result.

 

[manwithnoname]

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. Yes of course we need our injured players back. Benteke and Sturridge are back this week and Firmino the week after I think. The quality in the squad is there and surely they can be moulded to play in a certain way. Klopp seems the perfect person to do that. I guess we could do with strengthening in a few areas but it's not as drastic as some people make out. Give Klopp a chance to work with a fairly fully fit squad and let's see what happens. I'm sure he'll have it figured out by January what he needs etc.

By the way I'm with @Ryan on this one. It was so clear that we played better than we've done in months even without 4-5 first team players and practically no attack. 0-0 away to a good Spurs team was a bloody good result.

I think the first half against Arsenal was equally good, although arguably we kept up the intensity longer in that game, and created more chances.
I do like a bit of blood and thunder intensity in football, though.

But anyway, I wasn't dissatisfied. Just realistic. We have too many ordinary players and apart from Coutinho (and Lallana at a push), not one player on the pitch who was a goal threat (and let's face it, Coutinho and Lallana are hardly goal machines.)

I have no idea how much use Firmino is going to be when he finally gets fit, as he's done nothing so far.

 

[Mors]

How? They're the same players, and a lack of genuine quality and goal threat isn't going to be fixed by Klopp. Lallana, Lucas and Can may well run around a lot more, but they're not suddenly going to turn into Steven Gerrard or Xabi Alonso.


The system and work rate are hugely important factors, but they can only add so much. We need better players. Much better players.

We've got plenty of quality players

 

[mark1975]

There was a clear intention to set up with alot more focus on structure and to defend cohesively. Our defensive line was better and we pushed and dropped as a team. That was a big notable difference. The pressing was reminiscent of the way we played two seasons ago, so that bodes well.

What I will point out though is a few crucial issues that I think Oncy was eluding to. The idea of pressing in numbers isn't that different to what we were doing with the right players at our disposal. So what needs to be asked is why these players weren't doing it before? It's no new fad to see a team taken over by a new manager to go all out, busting a gut to impress. So when assessing our re-found ability to close down the space and work hard, you have to ask why some of these players have had to get to this stage to do so. Players like Can were nowhere near as industrious over the last few months. Now with a new influence, or (cynically) a new manager about to wield a fucking big axe, suddenly players look like they give a fuck about the shirt again.

Tactically we were still caught wide open at times, so despite the clean sheet, it wasn't that different to (say) the Arsenal performance, on another day with a striker a bit sharper and more confident than Kane, we could have conceded a couple. That said, we were short on numbers and a few players really impressed, particularly Origi who could just as easily have looked out of his depth against two really good defenders. It was also pleasing to see a few players in their more favoured roles with a return to protecting the full backs a bit more.

So all in all, it's pretty difficult to see where the genuine new regime starts and the players going the extra yard to impress, ends. But it was encouraging nonetheless.

 

[manwithnoname]

We've got plenty of quality players

How many is plenty? It's not enough on current evidence. The ever-rising tide of Rodgers hatred has seemingly apportioned blame for everything on his management, tactics and coaching.

As if, by magic, the introduction of a better manager in Klopp will make Adam Lallana play like Reus, Lucas turn into Paul Pogba and Joe Allen play like Luka Modric.


Not going to happen.

 

[Modo]

Night and day

 

[Tinto]

There was a relish to tackle that has been missing for ages. Rodgers identified the problem against Man U last season but was unable to get the players to do it. We've been out passed by the likes of Norwich and Bournemouth this season with none of our players really doing enough to stop it.

Norwich and Bournemouth passed it with more fluency than Spurs managed on Saturday. We weren't great on the ball as well. For me that was down to both teams working hard to disrupt the other.

 

[King Binny]

from 45:15

 

[Tinto]

What I will point out though is a few crucial issues that I think Oncy was eluding to. The idea of pressing in numbers isn't that different to what we were doing with the right players at our disposal. So what needs to be asked is why these players weren't doing it before? It's no new fad to see a team taken over by a new manager to go all out, busting a gut to impress. So when assessing our re-found ability to close down the space and work hard, you have to ask why some of these players have had to get to this stage to do so. Players like Can were nowhere near as industrious over the last few months. Now with a new influence, or (cynically) a new manager about to wield a fucking big axe, suddenly players look like they give a fuck about the shirt again.

When a manager loses the players, they stop working as hard. It happened to Ged and it happened to Rafa. The players never really busted a gut for Hodgson though for them to stop.

This is when you know the manager's time is up.

 

[Mors]

How many is plenty? It's not enough on current evidence. The ever-rising tide of Rodgers hatred has seemingly apportioned blame for everything on his management, tactics and coaching.

As if, by magic, the introduction of a better manager in Klopp will make Adam Lallana play like Reus, Lucas turn into Paul Pogba and Joe Allen play like Luka Modric.


Not going to happen.

Seeing as you've set your stall out on Rodgers, here's some players that are either quality for us, or, were quality for the team we bought them from (so therefore are quality):

Mignolet
Clyne
Sakho
Can
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Sturridge
Benteke
Ings

 

[Red Astaire]

You could arguably add Lovren to that list. He looked a completely (shit) player under Rodgers but was outstanding for Southampton.

 

[manwithnoname]

Seeing as you've set your stall out on Rodgers, here's some players that are either quality for us, or, were quality for the team we bought them from (so therefore are quality):

Mignolet
Clyne
Sakho
Can
Milner
Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Sturridge
Benteke
Ings

Mignolet, Lallana, Can, Sakho and Firmino all have very large question marks against them. Firmino because he's done nothing here yet, and the others...actually it's the same with them, really. They're OK as squad players, but you'd be hard pushed to see them in any of the Top 4's first team.

I think Clyne, Benteke, Ings, Sturridge and Milner are all good players, and definite quality, but some of the other on that list.....hmmmm.

 

[manwithnoname]

You could arguably add Lovren to that list. He looked a completely (shit) player under Rodgers but was outstanding for Southampton.

For one season.

 

[Red Astaire]

I think the main point @Mors is making (and one I agree with) Is that they have shown they can be quality.

I think its ridiculous to put a question mark over Firmino. For one thing he's only played a handful of games for us mostly as a sub. He finished the 2013-14 Bundesliga season tied as the fourth highest scorer with 16 goals and was named the league's breakthrough player of the year! How on earth can you doubt the lad has quality?

 

[Tinto]

It's very difficult to make a real judgement on our defenders though because Rodgers is a poor defensive coach. He just never seemed particularly interested in that aspect of the game.

The only time we have looked alright there during his tenure is when we had Carra back for half a season. When we signed Lovren, Rodgers talked a lot about what a leader and organiser he was. It was like he expected Lovren to sort it out for him.

 

[Red Astaire]

It's very difficult to make a real judgement on our defenders though because Rodgers is a poor defensive coach. .

He certainly was - Good point. Shame to see some of our fans judging certain players based on how we played in the last two seasons. I for one am prepared to give them a chance under a much superior manager.

 

[mark1975]

It's very difficult to make a real judgement on our defenders though because Rodgers is a poor defensive coach. He just never seemed particularly interested in that aspect of the game.

The only time we have looked alright there during his tenure is when we had Carra back for half a season. When we signed Lovren, Rodgers talked a lot about what a leader and organiser he was. It was like he expected Lovren to sort it out for him.

It's piss easy to judge a defender who goes about 12 games making a colossal, unforced fuck-up in every game, which is pretty much what Lovren did. It's too easy to blame the system. There are two experienced defenders in Toure and Carragher who were probably the slowest defenders you could put into his expansive system, yet both have easily outperformed Lovren.

 

[Red Astaire]

It's piss easy to judge a defender who goes about 12 games making a colossal, unforced fuck-up in every game, which is pretty much what Lovren did. It's too easy to blame the system. There are two experienced defenders in Toure and Carragher who were probably the slowest defenders you could put into his expansive system, yet both have easily outperformed Lovren.

I guess time will tell how he and other people with 'question marks' over them do under Klopp. Without basing it on too much I'm sure a few of them will surprise us.

 

[manwithnoname]

I think the main point @Mors is making (and one I agree with) Is that they have shown they can be quality.

I think its ridiculous to put a question mark over Firmino. For one thing he's only played a handful of games for us mostly as a sub. He finished the 2013-14 Bundesliga season tied as the fourth highest scorer with 16 goals and was named the league's breakthrough player of the year! How on earth can you doubt the lad has quality?

I think it's probably more fair than ridiculous to put a question mark over Firmino, since he's played about 3 games and done nothing.
Hence the ?

Unless you think it's more accurate to say "he's brilliant and a hugely successful signing"

 

[Red Astaire]

Don't be absurd! You said it - he's actually played 6 games (most of them subbed) in a new league in a new country. Blimey! It's not rocket science lad. He's a starter for Brazil FFS. He's hardly going to be shit is he.....

 

[Tinto]

It's piss easy to judge a defender who goes about 12 games making a colossal, unforced fuck-up in every game, which is pretty much what Lovren did. It's too easy to blame the system. There are two experienced defenders in Toure and Carragher who were probably the slowest defenders you could put into his expansive system, yet both have easily outperformed Lovren.

Lovren went from being one of the best defenders in the league to being a joke. He must have been doing something right though for us to splash £20m on him, right?

I'm not saying Klopp will turn Lovren around but he has played better than he has shown here especially in a system that suits him. At the start of last season, I don't think we had a settled back four for weeks. It was almost changing with every game. How is any defensive unit suppose to build up any kind of understanding?