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What happened next...

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[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36872.msg976609#msg976609 date=1257094235]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=36872.msg976601#msg976601 date=1257093947]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36872.msg976597#msg976597 date=1257093813]
I can't believe we didn't just say "no" when Xabi put in his transfer request!


[/quote]

You still haven't give us your ideas on what would have happened if we had said no Raf.
[/quote]

Like you i have no idea what the outcome would have been.

My point is though that when a player makes up his mind that he wants out, then he's more than likely going to get his own way. If you can't accept that then you're as bad as the posters that irritate you so much with their stubbornness sheiky


[/quote]

I think you're overcomplicating a simple game Raf.
 
We're in this mess the way most messes are caused; by digging ourselves into a hole over 5 years.

If trying to justify Rafa's actions makes you feel better, then I guess thats fine, Raf.
 
I don't think Rafa is a bad coach, in fact I think he's a talented coach but I don't think he's a top level manager.

The only time he's ever one a league anywhere was in a situation where he had little or no control over transfers, contracts and the youth/reserve set-up. He also inherited a very strong and experienced team, which I think had reached European Cup Finals (at least one anyway).

Similarly his bggest triumphs in Europe came from him doing an excellent job of coaching and drilling squads tha were for the most part assembled by someone else.

This is the first time Rafa has ever been a 'manager' in the sense that most of you understand it and the more authority and power he has, the worse I can see us doing. I don't think he's a great judge of a player, I don't think he can get the best out of players and I think his ego and inability to reconcile any differences he has with playing and coaching staff continues to be to the detriment of the club.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36872.msg976405#msg976405 date=1257084057]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36872.msg976404#msg976404 date=1257084013]
Yeah we should have let Agger go on a free.
[/quote]

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING.

[/quote]

It is pretty much because later on in the thread you bemoan the wages we've shelled out on Agger whilst he's been injured. We had three options: 1) award him a new contract, 2) sell him for less than half his worth or 3) let him go for free.

Personally, I'm glad we went for option 1. You used to be one of the posters I agreed with the most on this forum, but this anti-Rafa slant you've adopted is making you come out with some weird arguments.

You don't know what the doctors have said about Agger's injury. It might be that we're not far off having solved an underlying issue - who knows. What I do know however is that for a club as broke as ourselves, to start letting go of top class players for next to nothing is a really really stupid idea.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976619#msg976619 date=1257095072]
I don't think Rafa is a bad coach, in fact I think he's a talented coach but I don't think he's a top level manager.

The only time he's ever one a league anywhere was in a situation where he had little or no control over transfers, contracts and the youth/reserve set-up. He also inherited a very strong and experienced team, which I think had reached European Cup Finals (at least one anyway).

Similarly his bggest triumphs in Europe came from him doing an excellent job of coaching and drilling squads tha were for the most part assembled by someone else.

This is the first time Rafa has ever been a 'manager' in the sense that most of you understand it and the more authority and power he has, the worse I can see us doing. I don't think he's a great judge of a player, I don't think he can get the best out of players and I think his ego and inability to reconcile any differences he has with playing and coaching staff continues to be to the detriment of the club.


[/quote]

Good point. Paco was the link to the dressing room but he fell out with him. I'm sure Rafa has a lot of respect from his players, but I would question how much loyalty he commands
 
No surprise really when you consider he watches football 23 hours a day and has the largest collection of footballing data and videos in the KNOWN WORLD EVER.

I reckon Man Utd must have paid the Anfield burglar to slip into Rafa's house and steal the Nunez, Krompamp. Gonzalez, Josemi, Pellegrino, Babel, Degen, Insua, Voronin, Morientes, Pennant, Itandje, Lucas and Paletta files and videos. Or maybe Parry borrowed them when Rafa wasn't looking.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976619#msg976619 date=1257095072]
I don't think Rafa is a bad coach, in fact I think he's a talented coach but I don't think he's a top level manager.

The only time he's ever one a league anywhere was in a situation where he had little or no control over transfers, contracts and the youth/reserve set-up. He also inherited a very strong and experienced team, which I think had reached European Cup Finals (at least one anyway).

Similarly his bggest triumphs in Europe came from him doing an excellent job of coaching and drilling squads tha were for the most part assembled by someone else.

This is the first time Rafa has ever been a 'manager' in the sense that most of you understand it and the more authority and power he has, the worse I can see us doing. I don't think he's a great judge of a player, I don't think he can get the best out of players and I think his ego and inability to reconcile any differences he has with playing and coaching staff continues to be to the detriment of the club.


[/quote]

So, taking somebody's else Valencia side and winning the league twice with them, and turning Ged's team into European Champions isn't getting the best out of his players?

I can see where you get this from when you look at what happened with the like of Bellers, Keane and to a lesser extent Pennant but last year I thought Rafa extracted the maximum out of a very thin squad.
 
Yes, he's a very good coach, that's what I'm saying but when he falls out with a player or a member of staff there appears to be no way back. You could maybe work around that with a coach but the manager has to rise above that.

A manager also has to be able to manage risk and Rafa is about as good as a Lehmann Brothers executive at that.
 
perhaps it wouldn't have been so thin if he hadn't sold a 20plus million pound striker part way through the first season and not even thought of a replacement.

why did he sell him? i'lltell you why, because the control freak was having a fight with parry and was willing to let the premier league slip so he could win his personal war with the chief executive who had refused to sanction selling alonso for 12 million and buying barry for 18.

this is the same alonso that was our player of the season and we sold to madrid for 30 million this summer.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976638#msg976638 date=1257096769]
perhaps it wouldn't have been so thin if he hadn't sold a 20plus million pound striker part way through the first season and not even thought of a replacement.
[/quote]

He tried to sign Keirrison
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=36872.msg976641#msg976641 date=1257096867]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976638#msg976638 date=1257096769]
perhaps it wouldn't have been so thin if he hadn't sold a 20plus million pound striker part way through the first season and not even thought of a replacement.
[/quote]

He tried to sign Keirrison
[/quote]

i don't sell my house, pack up my things in a removal truck move out and then think where shall i go and live. do you?
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976642#msg976642 date=1257096963]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=36872.msg976641#msg976641 date=1257096867]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976638#msg976638 date=1257096769]
perhaps it wouldn't have been so thin if he hadn't sold a 20plus million pound striker part way through the first season and not even thought of a replacement.
[/quote]

He tried to sign Keirrison
[/quote]

i don't sell my house, pack up my things in a removal truck move out and then think where shall i go and live. do you?
[/quote]

Ha.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976635#msg976635 date=1257096616]
Yes, he's a very good coach, that's what I'm saying but when he falls out with a player or a member of staff there appears to be no way back. You could maybe work around that with a coach but the manager has to rise above that.

A manager also has to be able to manage risk and Rafa is about as good as a Lehmann Brothers executive at that.
[/quote]

I can't disagree with the first sentence but can only offer up that both Mourinho and Ferguson aren't exactly forgiving if you were to fall out with them.
 
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=36872.msg976644#msg976644 date=1257097022]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976635#msg976635 date=1257096616]
Yes, he's a very good coach, that's what I'm saying but when he falls out with a player or a member of staff there appears to be no way back. You could maybe work around that with a coach but the manager has to rise above that.

A manager also has to be able to manage risk and Rafa is about as good as a Lehmann Brothers executive at that.
[/quote]

I can't disagree with the first sentence but can only offer up that both Mourinho and Ferguson aren't exactly forgiving if you were to fall out with them.
[/quote]

I kinda do disagree with the first sentence. I don't think there is enough of a difference between a manager in Spain falling out with a player to the same happening here to make a point out of it.
 
ha ha ha

I feel like I've a good friend whose girlfriend is sucking cocks for a fiver in the gents toilets of my local, and when I tell him to kick her out he keeps saying things like "but she makes a great cup of tea and I love tea" and "well she wants a new pair of Ugs so I can understand why she needs the money, let's not judge her on this, she needs more time to give up random cock".
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976642#msg976642 date=1257096963]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=36872.msg976641#msg976641 date=1257096867]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976638#msg976638 date=1257096769]
perhaps it wouldn't have been so thin if he hadn't sold a 20plus million pound striker part way through the first season and not even thought of a replacement.
[/quote]

He tried to sign Keirrison
[/quote]

i don't sell my house, pack up my things in a removal truck move out and then think where shall i go and live. do you?
[/quote]

I agree, though you said he hadn't thought of a replacement. He had (though buggered it up clearly).
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36872.msg976647#msg976647 date=1257097207]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=36872.msg976644#msg976644 date=1257097022]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976635#msg976635 date=1257096616]
Yes, he's a very good coach, that's what I'm saying but when he falls out with a player or a member of staff there appears to be no way back. You could maybe work around that with a coach but the manager has to rise above that.
A manager also has to be able to manage risk and Rafa is about as good as a Lehmann Brothers executive at that.[/quote]
I can't disagree with the first sentence but can only offer up that both Mourinho and Ferguson aren't exactly forgiving if you were to fall out with them. [/quote]
I kinda do disagree with the first sentence. I don't think there is enough of a difference between a manager in Spain falling out with a player to the same happening here to make a point out of it.
[/quote]
In Spain, Rafa wouldn't have been allowed to flog Keane at a loss a few months later. Last week Guti and Pellegrini had a row, do you think Pellegrini will flog Guti in the winter?
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976651#msg976651 date=1257097614]
In Spain, Rafa wouldn't have been allowed to flog Keane at a loss a few months later. Last week Guti and Pellegrini had a row, do you think Pellegrini will flog Guti in the winter?
[/quote]

I doubt he will get the chance as he will be sacked
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=36872.msg976651#msg976651 date=1257097614]
In Spain, Rafa wouldn't have been allowed to flog Keane at a loss a few months later. Last week Guti and Pellegrini had a row, do you think Pellegrini will flog Guti in the winter?
[/quote]

No but Raul will sack Pellegrini.
 
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=36872.msg976499#msg976499 date=1257090257]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976497#msg976497 date=1257090135]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=36872.msg976494#msg976494 date=1257090018]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36872.msg976480#msg976480 date=1257089098]
i think rafa is a liar.

i don't think agger, aurelio and n'gog were all injured yesterday.

i am sure you will see them all mysteriously become fit for the european game - the tournament that rafa seems to continuously sacrifice league games for.
[/quote]

If you are having difficulties believing that Aurelio is injured then you are seriously deluded.
[/quote]

really?

as i said i do not believe all 3 of them were injured yesterday.

tell me why was yossi subbed if not for the champions league game?
[/quote]

Yossi was subbed early in the Lyon match too to save him for a league match.
[/quote]

As was Gerrard.
 
Simply put, Rafa bought Keane for 20m of something like that. Decided he didn't like him or couldn't work with him so he sold him back to Spurs at a significant loss.

I happen to think that as a manager he had a resoponsibility last season to keep working with Keane at least until we had an adequate replacement, he didn't. That sort of intransigence is probably not such a big deal in a first team coach but it's a massive problem if your manager is like that.

I was using the Guti example to show how in Spain, where Rafa started his career and was a successful coach with Valencia, you normally have a director of football, Valdano in the case of Real Madrid, who has significant control over the running of the football side of hings like contracts and transfers. It's the sort of thing that would prevent a manager like Rafa acting the way he did with Keane, or at least selling him when we clearly needed him.

Sorry if my example was a poor one. I hope I've clarified my point.
 
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