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Watford - Post Match

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I thought Origi's performance last night was 'up there' with the likes of N'gog and whatnot we've had to endure in the past.

Absolutely stunned by his complete lack of development this year and by the looks of it, he even seem to have gone backwards.

Ryan summed him up quite well really, and my main worry for him is, that he's gone too far backwards at the moment to even be considered for next season. His luck that Sturridge has also looked a shadow of his former self but at least he looked improved in last nights cameo.

At the current rate however I wouldn't be surprised to see Origi, Sturrdige and Ings all being moved on in Summer (not sure if Ings can actually be sold to anyone as he's been injured for so long, but I doubt he's got a future with us).

I hope we are in the market for two new strikers/forwards to give Firmino and Mane competition for goals.

Whether Origi will eventually pan out I'd not like to say and if he's kept as our e.g. #3 or 4 striker then I'd have no complaints. What I will say is this :

'Fun fact' : Origi has a better goal-scoring record in the PL this season (6 & 3 assists) than any of United's young guns (Origi : goal every 215 mins); Rashford (5-2 @ 329 mins); Martial (4-5 @ 311 mins); Lingard (1-2 @ 1,231 mins). Origi and Martial have similar amounts of pitch-time (Rashford rather more, Lingard less).

Yes, nominally Origi has started at CF and those United players far less so, however Liverpool play a far more fluid system than United's more rigid one and so Origi has actually been all over the front line rather than leading it. Now I only bring these stats up because Origi has been lambasted in this (and I'm assuming the match) thread and yet he is only 20 yrs old (EDIT: 22 yrs old, time flies), similar to United's youngsters, who seem to be afforded far greater leeway than Origi and lauded by some on here. Origi's early season form (which coincided with the team playing well) now being seen as a 'blip' and his current relatively poor form (similar to the team's form funnily enough) is considered the 'norm'.
 
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when I come into this post match thread after seeing us grind out a massive away win in a potential banana skin fixture, with one of our players scoring a wonder goal, putting us firmly in the driving seat for the top 3 position we crave, only to see the thread has descended into 'if you once rated Origi you're a cretin' fest

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4 and a half of the 5 pages devoted to criticisms of Origi. After one of those Carlsberg weekends for us.

People fucking revel in negativity don't they? It reminds me of why I left Ireland; the morbid fascination with moaning, pessimism, funerals, negativity, and complaints. I really don't get it.
 
Its not strange at all.
You are as good as your worst team member. In all walks of life.

If we smash Watford 5-0 and everyone plays well you get positivity.
A sketchy performance and a scrappy 1-0 win and you get analysis.

And to be clear. There is a Can thread. A Lucas thread. Origi probably deserved a thread but the chat has remained in here.

I dont think its negative to look for the CLEAR areas that require improvement.
 
4 and a half of the 5 pages devoted to criticisms of Origi. After one of those Carlsberg weekends for us.

People fucking revel in negativity don't they? It reminds me of why I left Ireland; the morbid fascination with moaning, pessimism, funerals, negativity, and complaints. I really don't get it.

When you listen to Imagine by John Lennon, does it just sounds like some cunt moaning?
 
I missed this earlier.

It can be argued that every young has the potential to be world class. What percentage chance would you give Origi ?

I couldn't put a percentage chance on it.

By comparison to other players - he's at the age where Sturridge & Kane broke into and became regular first choice players - his record of games and goals isn't dissimilar to their records at his age.

He has a record of appearances and goals scored in the EPL very similar to Rashfirs, although he is a little older.

I'd say it will be tough for him - his big chance came last season when he was playing well and scoring regularly - but then got injured and hasn't been able to recover that form or consistency.

I don't know why that is - mental fortitude, lacking in confidence, bad luck - I'm not quite ready to give up on him, but his window of opportunity is rapidly closing.
 
Hadn't Kane had a 30 goal season when he was 22? Not having a go at Origi but I don't think a Kane comparison does him any favours.
 
Its not strange at all.
You are as good as your worst team member. In all walks of life.

If we smash Watford 5-0 and everyone plays well you get positivity.
A sketchy performance and a scrappy 1-0 win and you get analysis.

And to be clear. There is a Can thread. A Lucas thread. Origi probably deserved a thread but the chat has remained in here.

I dont think its negative to look for the CLEAR areas that require improvement.

I don't know if it is strange or not.

I mean, we are in the run in of a season were we are close to reach our main target. The analysis over a season that has gone from real hights to some blows has been quite accurate in one thing; Our thin squad hasn't handled the injuries we got over the season. The reasoning for the thin squad has been clear, we don't want a lot of players that will not be involved when we have no European football. Calculated gamble there.

This squad has been balanced with established and youngsters. Origi to use him has clearly not been established, but has played plenty as Sturridge, Ings, Mane, Coutinho and Lallana has been out for periods. He has har good games and bad games.

The last month we have been hanging in the ropes. Teams that was expected to easy finish above us has haunted us. We have replied by grinding out hard fought victories in tricky awaygames. It has hardly been created a post match thread, and when it has it has not been to "analyse" how we well deserved took the game while having another setback in Coutinhos injury, it has mainly been to mock yet another of our players. The game we lost over same periode there was a post match thread within seconds of final whistle and that thread didn't "analyse" much. It was a fucking meltdown of abuse everywhere.

So I don't know if it strange or people are just lunatics. If so, I am not sure those "analyzis" are worth much?
 
A better comparison for Origi at this stage of his career and development is perhaps Danny Welbeck from around 2010 to 2014. You see in the player some attributes you like which leads you to think that the player can and will go on to much better things once he's more experienced and polished his moves or learned some new tricks. Then a couple of seasons later, you're still talking about the same thing, and then he's moved on and you realize that perhaps you were watching him at his ceiling all the while.

Right now, it feels to me like that that's the trajectory that Origi's career seems more likely to take. Considering what we paid for him and his probable wages, that isn't a terrible thing given today's market, though I'd be rather disappointed if it did really go that way. In a sense, it's like watching Ibe all over again.

On the more hopeful side though, one player that Origi in his current form also reminds me of is Henderson in his first season and a half here. Back then, he'd show sporadic flashes of his ability, but he would also frustratingly and annoyingly defer too much to the senior players instead of stepping up his own game. A close shave with an early demise of his Liverpool career later, he improved quickly in the second half of his second season and finally broke through with a stellar season in 13/14.

I'm still holding out some hope for Origi that the Welbeck path isn't the one he has to tread, but he needs to get a jump on his development soon like Henderson finally realized. Starting with picking up on the things that Ryan has mentioned, as well as learning to get the jump early on the lone defender facing him rather than doing what Ibe used to do before we sold him - holding the ball for too long and waiting to beat two men instead of one. Otherwise, that same threat that Henderson once faced will hit Origi next, and maybe the Welbeck path will be the one he does indeed tread.
 
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I couldn't put a percentage chance on it.

By comparison to other players - he's at the age where Sturridge & Kane broke into and became regular first choice players - his record of games and goals isn't dissimilar to their records at his age.

He has a record of appearances and goals scored in the EPL very similar to Rashfirs, although he is a little older.

I'd say it will be tough for him - his big chance came last season when he was playing well and scoring regularly - but then got injured and hasn't been able to recover that form or consistency.

I don't know why that is - mental fortitude, lacking in confidence, bad luck - I'm not quite ready to give up on him, but his window of opportunity is rapidly closing.

@LarryHagman is correct on the Kane comparison. Kane is 23 now and is finishing his third season in a row with 20+ league goals.

Sturridge's situation was slightly different than Origi's but when given game time on loan at Bolton when he was aged 20 he scored 8 in 12 games.

Origi at age 22 has 73 games with Lille under his belt, 14 goals. 48 games with us, 11 goals.

Dolberg at age 19 has 14 goals in his first season (26 games so far). So the same amount of goals outside the premiership in 47 less games.

Nothing Origi has done thus far warrants any real hype. He's been okay but no more than that.

Does any of the above mean he can't be a good player ? No.

Does it provide a foundation for an opinion that he'll be world class ? Again, no.
 
A better comparison for Origi at this stage of his career and development is perhaps Danny Welbeck from around 2010 to 2014. You see in the player some attributes you like which leads you to think that the player can and will go on to much better things once he's more experienced and polished his moves or learned some new tricks. Then a couple of seasons later, you're still talking about the same thing, and then he's moved on and you realize that perhaps you were watching him at his ceiling all the while.

Right now, it feels to me like that that's the trajectory that Origi's career seems more likely to take. Considering what we paid for him and his probable wages, that isn't a terrible thing given today's market, though I'd be rather disappointed if it did really go that way. In a sense, it's like watching Ibe all over again.

On the more hopeful side though, one player that Origi in his current form also reminds me of is Henderson in his first season and a half here. Back then, he'd show sporadic flashes of his ability, but he would also frustratingly and annoyingly defer too much to the senior players instead of stepping up his own game. A close shave with an early demise of his Liverpool career later, he improved quickly in the second half of his second season and finally broke through with a stellar season in 13/14.

I'm still holding out some hope for Origi that the Welbeck path isn't the one he has to tread, but he needs to get a jump on his development soon like Henderson finally realized. Starting with picking up on the things that Ryan has mentioned, as well as learning to get the jump early on the lone defender facing him rather than doing what Ibe used to do before we sold him - holding the ball for too long and waiting to beat two men instead of one. Otherwise, that same threat that Henderson once faced will hit Origi next, and maybe the Welbeck path will be the one he does indeed tread.

Certainly better analyzing than 'Hahahahaha'. ;-) can be valid. I think he got more in him than Wellbeck. And be will probably have more chances with us than Wellbeck had. We have to remember that United at that time were normally in semis in CL, hence the competition and level was high.... si even if I never was overimpressed with Welbeck he probably faced to high level for natural progression. I think we have a player capable of taking a higher level in Origi. He needs time and to learn but this season has given him lots of valuable experience.
 
Its not strange at all.
You are as good as your worst team member. In all walks of life.

If we smash Watford 5-0 and everyone plays well you get positivity.
A sketchy performance and a scrappy 1-0 win and you get analysis.

And to be clear. There is a Can thread. A Lucas thread. Origi probably deserved a thread but the chat has remained in here.

I dont think its negative to look for the CLEAR areas that require improvement.

Was it a sketchy performance? Thought it was quite controlled and balanced. Watford only managed 2 shots on target.
Anyway, the first 5-6 posts in this thread is about the game. After that its nearly 5 pages about Origi.

We all enjoy, whats maybe our most important win scored by one of the best goals of the season, differently.
So for me the focus on one player is a bit strange.
 
If i'd laughably overhyped Origi i wouldn't want to talk about him either, to be fair.
 
If i'd laughably overhyped Origi i wouldn't want to talk about him either, to be fair.

I think you are into something there. Some people on this forum spouts so much laughable shit that it becomes painful to even remotely touch upon it so they prefer to focus on other pathetic shit instead.
 
4 and a half of the 5 pages devoted to criticisms of Origi. After one of those Carlsberg weekends for us.

People fucking revel in negativity don't they? It reminds me of why I left Ireland; the morbid fascination with moaning, pessimism, funerals, negativity, and complaints. I really don't get it.

I thought he was fairly isolated all game and was used pretty much to give us a breather. He works hard holding off defenders and keeping hold of the ball until we can push numbers forward. All of that stuff goes unnoticed, I think he'd prefer to play on the shoulder feeding off precise balls for him to run onto, but we barely play that way these days unless we're firing on all cylinders and Coutinho or the likes of Henderson have the space to play that sort of game, which is a rarity.

He's just turned 22, has a record of 20 in 75 appearances, so a goal in a bit less than every four games. Sure he's not had the improvement this season that we all hoped for, but he ended last season on a high and started this season barely getting a look in. That's down to Klopp to coax that kind of form from him again, but he's far from the terrible player people seem intent on labelling him (fucking muck/the new N'Gog).

Last season he looked unplayable at times and against superior opposition in Europe too. He needs some indulgence, not the sort of shite we've been reading on here this season because he hasn't tore it up.

If anything, our system shows that it's forwards have to be unselfish and 100% about workrate before anything else, that's why he still plays - if you're trying to build your confidence by scoring goals, it's a tough task to do both if you're not already an established goal scorer. Sure, I'd personally rather see him more confident and really let off the leash, but he's doing ok. Next season is the big season for him, but only an idiot would sell a lad with so much raw ability to work with.
 
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I thought he was fairly isolated all game and was used pretty much to give us a breather. He works hard holding off defenders and keeping hold of the ball until we can push numbers forward. All of that stuff goes unnoticed, I think he'd prefer to play on the shoulder feeding off precise balls for him to run onto, but we barely play that way these days unless we're firing on all cylinders and Coutinho or the likes of Henderson have the space to play that sort of game, which is a rarity.

He's just turned 22, has a record of 20 in 75 appearances, so a goal in a bit less than every four games. Sure he's not had the improvement this season that we all hoped for, but he ended last season on a high and started this season barely getting a look in. That's down to Klopp to coax that kind of form from him again, but he's far from the terrible player people seem intent on labelling him "fucking muck/the new N'Gog". Last season he looked unplayable at times and against superior opposition in Europe too. He needs some indulgence, not the sort of shite we've been reading on here this season because he hasn't tore it up.

If anything, our system shows that it's forwards have to be unselfish and 100% about workrate before anything else, that's why he still plays. Sure, I'd personally rather see him more confident and really let off the leash, but he's doing ok. Next season is the big season for him, only an idiot would sell a lad with so much raw ability to work with.
Top post.
 
@LarryHagman is correct on the Kane comparison. Kane is 23 now and is finishing his third season in a row with 20+ league goals.

Sturridge's situation was slightly different than Origi's but when given game time on loan at Bolton when he was aged 20 he scored 8 in 12 games.

Origi at age 22 has 73 games with Lille under his belt, 14 goals. 48 games with us, 11 goals.

Dolberg at age 19 has 14 goals in his first season (26 games so far). So the same amount of goals outside the premiership in 47 less games.

Nothing Origi has done thus far warrants any real hype. He's been okay but no more than that.

Does any of the above mean he can't be a good player ? No.

Does it provide a foundation for an opinion that he'll be world class ? Again, no.

Surely, though, the difference is that Dolberg, Sturridge, etc were given regular starting roles and game time.

The point is when Origi got his chance - he did score regularly and looked the part - but then his season was ended by injury.

He turned 22 only a few weeks ago - so, no, Larry is wrong - Kane turns 24 in a month or so - that means at a similar age, Kane was just completing his first season scoring 20+ goals.

Prior to that, Kane had play 11 games in the EPL & scored 3 goals - therefore Origi was ahead of Kane in terms of development than Kane was.

The difference - Origi hasn't pushed on since his breakthrough & injury at the end of last season - this was the season you'd expect him to start to establish himself as something approaching a regular.

Hasn't happened and he's been poor - but doesn't mean he's done.
 
I don't know if it is strange or not.

I mean, we are in the run in of a season were we are close to reach our main target. The analysis over a season that has gone from real hights to some blows has been quite accurate in one thing; Our thin squad hasn't handled the injuries we got over the season. The reasoning for the thin squad has been clear, we don't want a lot of players that will not be involved when we have no European football. Calculated gamble there.

This squad has been balanced with established and youngsters. Origi to use him has clearly not been established, but has played plenty as Sturridge, Ings, Mane, Coutinho and Lallana has been out for periods. He has har good games and bad games.

The last month we have been hanging in the ropes. Teams that was expected to easy finish above us has haunted us. We have replied by grinding out hard fought victories in tricky awaygames. It has hardly been created a post match thread, and when it has it has not been to "analyse" how we well deserved took the game while having another setback in Coutinhos injury, it has mainly been to mock yet another of our players. The game we lost over same periode there was a post match thread within seconds of final whistle and that thread didn't "analyse" much. It was a fucking meltdown of abuse everywhere.

So I don't know if it strange or people are just lunatics. If so, I am not sure those "analyzis" are worth much?
The posts about the game were in the match thread. The post match thread is FOR analysis.
Can got a thread as he was clearly the motm
Lucas got a thread because Lucas.
Ive seen multiple posts about Wijnaldum, Milner, Clyne and Ming.
The rest were bang average 6s or 7s hence the main discussion in this thread being about the player who served up a steaming turd. Again.

I cant see what else people are expected to analyse.
 
Well it's worth discussing that we dug out another result in a game we typically lose. We had the two best chances of the game through genuine moments of top drawer quality and were well set for finishing in the top four.

I agree about the analysis thing, but there are times when we just have to say, were stretched injury but we got the job done. We don't need a scapegoat/punchbag for every game.
 
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