Watford - Post Match

[Frogfish]

I think you're being a little over sensitive. He got pilloried in the match thread from all quarters.

The Echo ratings might interest you then (fans voting he got 5.5) :
Divock Origi 6

Improved on his Palace showing, although it was gradual. Struggled a little in the first half but was much better after the interval, drawing a decent stop from Gomes and holding possession much better.

 

[manwithnoname]

The Echo ratings might interest you then

Wrong again.

 

[Frogfish]

My viewpoint :

Mignolet : 8
Clyne : 6 (he continues to work his balls off and do well defensively while offering less than zero to the attack).
Matip : 7.5
Lovren : 7
Milner : 4
Lucas : 7
Wijnaldum : 5
Can : 9
Lallana : 8.5
Firmino : 6
Origi : 5

 

[Insignificance]

My viewpoint :

Mignolet : 8
Clyne : 6 (he continues to work his balls off and do well defensively while offering less than zero to the attack).
Matip : 7.5
Lovren : 7
Milner : 4
Lucas : 7
Wijnaldum : 5
Can : 9
Lallana : 8.5
Firmino : 6
Origi : 5

Agree

 

[tombrown]

They were all average (5-6 out of 10) except Origi (9) and Lucas (11)

 

[Gary25]

Origi isn't good enough to be leading the line for Liverpool. He shows flashes of his ability but just don't think he has what it takes to be a regular starter for us.

 

[Kay Age El]

I thought Origi's performance last night was 'up there' with the likes of N'gog and whatnot we've had to endure in the past.

Absolutely stunned by his complete lack of development this year and by the looks of it, he even seem to have gone backwards.

Ryan summed him up quite well really, and my main worry for him is, that he's gone too far backwards at the moment to even be considered for next season. His luck that Sturridge has also looked a shadow of his former self but at least he looked improved in last nights cameo.

At the current rate however I wouldn't be surprised to see Origi, Sturrdige and Ings all being moved on in Summer (not sure if Ings can actually be sold to anyone as he's been injured for so long, but I doubt he's got a future with us).

I hope we are in the market for two new strikers/forwards to give Firmino and Mane competition for goals.

 

[Hansern]

My viewpoint :

Mignolet : 8
Clyne : 6 (he continues to work his balls off and do well defensively while offering less than zero to the attack).
Matip : 7.5
Lovren : 7
Milner : 4
Lucas : 7
Wijnaldum : 5
Can : 9
Lallana : 8.5
Firmino : 6
Origi : 5

Spot on, and without name calling or dragging up past history. So it is possible I see.

 

[Hansern]

Origi was poor yesterday. Not that its easy being alone against 3 CBs but he ran with very little purpose in the first half. Thought he was a bit better in the second half.

He seem to lack that desire and fight for someone trying to break into the first team.
Has done very little after Mané got injured and its disapointing.
Big summer and next season ahead of him. Without any improvement he'll be off.

 

[kingjulian]

It's one thing to criticize or even dislike a player, but this kind of outright cold, seething contempt, repeated ad nauseam and goading other posters into joining either the pro or the anti camp, is really getting too much. I remember a few years back when almost half of this site called Lucas – a limited player for sure, but a model servant of this club – "the cunt" and the match and post-match threads were unbearable. I feel with the constant abuse, as opposed to factually based criticism, of certain players we are inching closer to that point once again.

I still call him the cunt...

 

[Rosco]

Origi was poor yesterday. Not that its easy being alone against 3 CBs but he ran with very little purpose in the first half. Thought he was a bit better in the second half.

He seem to lack that desire and fight for someone trying to break into the first team.
Has done very little after Mané got injured and its disapointing.
Big summer and next season ahead of him. Without any improvement he'll be off.

So is he not a world class talent any more ?

 

[superchimp]

Lallana was sensational, what a gifted footballer!

 

[The Nomad]

My viewpoint :

Mignolet : 8
Clyne : 6 (he continues to work his balls off and do well defensively while offering less than zero to the attack).
Matip : 7.5
Lovren : 7
Milner : 4
Lucas : 7
Wijnaldum : 5
Can : 9
Lallana : 8.5
Firmino : 6
Origi : 5

Pretty much in the right direction would only change:
Milner - 5
Can - 8
Lallana 7.5

As others have said, Origi was too one dimensional yesterday. Sturridge showed more movement in 10 minutes than Divock did the entire game. So frustrating that Sturridge is made from glass.

 

[Hansern]

So is he not a world class talent any more ?

Did I say he wasn't? He's clearly got the talent. I'm saying he's been disappointing when called upon after Mane got injured and he needs to step up.
That doesn't say anything about his potential or lack of potential. One doesn't exclude the other. But there should be questions asked about his hunger and desire to succeed if this continues. He's young and there isnt any point in selling him this summer or maybe next, but we'll have to see some progression from him.

Aren't you breaking the terms of the peace treaty?

 

[gkmacca]

It's all true about Milner but in one sense I feel a bit sorry for the guy - namely because he's become a kind of all-purpose get-out option for his teammates' lack of invention. Get the ball, have a look around, wait for an idea to pop into your head, it doesn't come, so pass the ball out wide to Milner and then run away. Clyne offers little but fear and indecision out on the right, so it's all played out to Milner on the left. The defenders do it, the midfield do it and the strikers do it. And too often they then offer no quick and good option for a one-two or a decisive pass, so Milner is left to signal the hopelessness of the situation by crossing towards the 6 foot 4 inch striker that we don't have lurking in the area. Yes, Milner, these days, looks tired and unimaginative, but boy aren't his teammates wearing him down by continually passing the buck!

 

[manwithnoname]

Pretty much in the right direction would only change:
Milner - 5
Can - 8
Lallana 7.5

As others have said, Origi was too one dimensional yesterday. Sturridge showed more movement in 10 minutes than Divock did the entire game. So frustrating that Sturridge is made from glass.

Sturridge showed clever movement and had a few glimpses of class, but there's never been any real doubt that he's a whole different class of finisher and quality compared to Origi

But injuries and his suitability for a Klopp team (workrate and whatever) to one side, what he still hasn't shown, and what I fear is gone forever, is the pace and electric acceleration of him at his prime

So sell

 

[Rosco]

Did I say he wasn't? He's clearly got the talent. I'm saying he's been disappointing when called upon after Mane got injured and he needs to step up.
That doesn't say anything about his potential or lack of potential. One doesn't exclude the other. But there should be questions asked about his hunger and desire to succeed if this continues. He's young and there isnt any point in selling him this summer or maybe next, but we'll have to see some progression from him.

Aren't you breaking the terms of the peace treaty?

Maybe you just have no idea how to judge potential ?

 

[manwithnoname]

Did I say he wasn't? He's clearly got the talent. I'm saying he's been disappointing when called upon after Mane got injured and he needs to step up.
That doesn't say anything about his potential or lack of potential. One doesn't exclude the other. But there should be questions asked about his hunger and desire to succeed if this continues. He's young and there isnt any point in selling him this summer or maybe next, but we'll have to see some progression from him.

Aren't you breaking the terms of the peace treaty?

I'm not sure I would question Origi's hunger or lack of desire. That would suggest he doesn't care or isn't trying.

Doesn't seem the type. I'd buy into a lack of confidence, and also a general lack of quality. Some players have a ceiling that no amount of patience and coaching can alter

 

[Hansern]

Maybe you just have no idea how to judge potential ?

Seeing as I'm not working as a scout or recommend any potential signings to any football clubs, that isn't something I'm very concerned about. Its just my opinion on a football forum, which doesnt really count for much or matter to anyone.

If Ross McNugget from Ireland don't agree with me or think my scouting skills are poor. Well, guess what. I couldn't care less and I doubt anyone else does either.

 

[Hansern]

I'm not sure I would question Origi's hunger or lack of desire. That would suggest he doesn't care or isn't trying.

Doesn't seem the type. I'd buy into a lack of confidence, and also a general lack of quality. Some players have a ceiling that no amount of patience and coaching can alter[/QUOhTE]

It might be a lack of confidence. But there were several situations yesterday were he just seem to give up.
Its all fair and well that sometimes it isnt working for you on the pitch, but work hard regardless.

I think the talent is there. He has showed that several times. That is a discussion that nobody will ever agree on, so its better just left alone.

 

[manwithnoname]

It's all true about Milner but in one sense I feel a bit sorry for the guy - namely because he's become a kind of all-purpose get-out option for his teammates' lack of invention. Get the ball, have a look around, wait for an idea to pop into your head, it doesn't come, so pass the ball out wide to Milner and then run away. Clyne offers little but fear and indecision out on the right, so it's all played out to Milner on the left. The defenders do it, the midfield do it and the strikers do it. And too often they then offer no quick and good option for a one-two or a decisive pass, so Milner is left to signal the hopelessness of the situation by crossing towards the 6 foot 4 inch striker that we don't have lurking in the area. Yes, Milner, these days, looks tired and unimaginative, but boy aren't his teammates wearing him down by continually passing the buck!

I think Clyne is a quality rightback but agree with the rest.

Milner is always available to receive the ball, but often doesn't have enough options.

He's not perfect but he's a very good player and some of the criticism is harsh

 

[manwithnoname]

Maybe. But I've never really bought into Liverpool players not trying/ not arsed or giving up, whoever they are

I'm probably being naive and generous in some cases, but anyway

 

[Rosco]

Seeing as I'm not working as a scout or recommend any potential signings to any football clubs, that isn't something I'm very concerned about. Its just my opinion on a football forum, which doesnt really count for much or matter to anyone.

If Ross McNugget from Ireland don't agree with me or think my scouting skills are poor. Well, guess what. I couldn't care less and I doubt anyone else does either.

Your name calling is actually better than your eye for talent.

 

[manwithnoname]

I said the same about Kewell, which really does fly in the face of almost universally agreed opinion.

 

[Oncy]

He was shit.
The bits of his game that you could point to as positives (being in the box, tap ins etc) he seems to have lost aswell.
So hahahahaha was well warranted.
If he bangs in a hattrick and plays like Suarez vs Southampton he will rightly get a 9.

I dont think a shit match rating is all that personal.

And im sure hes a lovely boy.

But why is Divock?
Why?

 

[Insignificance]

So is he not a world class talent any more ?

Thats a cheap shot mate.

There is a huge talent in there, and although he does it too seldom, he proves it from time to time. However going from talent to the finished article is not a given process.
n't excpec t him to be the one pulling this team through anyway.
Origi is strong, he is fast, he got a good trick up his sleeve and he scores some goals at the highest level. so to not give him the acknowledgement for the talent is just stupid. But is he the finished article and ready to lead Our line full time? No definately not. But the same can be said about Rashford for United without taking away his talent.

A couple of years back everyone had a wankfest over Andruzaj. The discussions for which national team he should represent wnet high, and I think there were 4-5 nations in the Picture. Now he watches his Club get relegated from the bench. Still you cannot question the talent. He just havent proved he develope the talent into the finished article.

Ideally Origi shouldn't lead our line. He should not neccessary be the first alternative either. But Things have worked wrong, and we have called upon him. In perids he has delivered the goods, but lately he has not been close. But I don't expected him to be the one pulling this team through anyway.

He is talented enough. Now it is up to him to make a class player out of that talent.

 

[Rosco]

Thats a cheap shot mate.

There is a huge talent in there, and although he does it too seldom, he proves it from time to time. However going from talent to the finished article is not a given process.
n't excpec t him to be the one pulling this team through anyway.
Origi is strong, he is fast, he got a good trick up his sleeve and he scores some goals at the highest level. so to not give him the acknowledgement for the talent is just stupid. But is he the finished article and ready to lead Our line full time? No definately not. But the same can be said about Rashford for United without taking away his talent.

A couple of years back everyone had a wankfest over Andruzaj. The discussions for which national team he should represent wnet high, and I think there were 4-5 nations in the Picture. Now he watches his Club get relegated from the bench. Still you cannot question the talent. He just havent proved he develope the talent into the finished article.

Ideally Origi shouldn't lead our line. He should not neccessary be the first alternative either. But Things have worked wrong, and we have called upon him. In perids he has delivered the goods, but lately he has not been close. But I don't expected him to be the one pulling this team through anyway.

He is talented enough. Now it is up to him to make a class player out of that talent.

See, i think your post is indicative of a few problems that football has. If you're evaluating a player it has to be done in specifics.

'Talent' is this vague concept with no basis in reality. Its a phrase trotted out when you can't point to a specific reason you think someone will succeed.

If a player doesn't make it, we should be looking back at what it was we missed when evaluating. Not engaging in this falacy where we convince ourselves a player is great talent(by ignoring the specifics), then when he fails we fall back on the lazy excuse like above.

If Janusjaz was talented he'd be playing for a decent club. Those who were lauding his 'talent' need to go back and look at why they mistook him for a good Premiership player.

 

[Hansern]

Your name calling is actually better than your eye for talent.

Okay, I'll add that to my CV.

 

[Hansern]

Maybe. But I've never really bought into Liverpool players not trying/ not arsed or giving up, whoever they are

I'm probably being naive and generous in some cases, but anyway

It was an observation from last nights game. I dont think he's not trying in general, it just felt like he gave up a bit to easy in a few situations. Could be a confidence thing as you said mind.

 

[doctor_mac]

Your name calling is actually better than your eye for talent.

Ross McNugget is a keeper.