Watford - Post Match

[Ryan]

Do we still do these threads? If not, bundle this into the match thread thing.

Few thoughts:

• Great result. Average performance, but at this stage it's the result that counts. 3 of our rivals dropped points at the weekend, 2 of them to worse sides than Watford, so who gives a fuck how the 3 points go on the table.
• A better team performance. Interestingly I don't think we had any standout individuals, I thought we just structured ourselves better than we have. We didn't get caught on the counter, we didn't get exposed, played through. Sure they had a hurrah the last 10 mins, but that was to be expected. We were very organised, and despite the fact it was only 1 goal - we controlled the match. Very impressive tactically, and well organised. Clearly Klopp had worked on shape and tightening the distance between our first and last line when we didn't have the ball.
• Thought we weren't daring enough in the first 45. Against a 3-5-2 one way to expose teams is to switch the play quickly so you can get a one-on-one in a wide area against the wing-back. We didn't do that once. That's what you lose from not having Henderson or Can in the DM position - that ability to ping a ball 40 yards to feet quickly. Lucas gives you other attributes, but passed beyond 10-15 metres aren't one.
• So we ended up probing aimlessly. I didn't think Watford were overly physical, or snapping at us in space - so we could have been far more daring and adventurous, especially with midfield runners, and on the few occasions when we'd broken through the first midfield line. Wijnaldum and Milner in particular were too cautious, and played the safe option on far too many occasions.
• Origi was really poor again. He's up against 2 really mediocre centre backs there, and he did nothing. It's a small thing, but notice how everytime he receives it he has a defender up his arse? That's cos his movement is predictable and in straight lines. He doesn't angle anything, he doesn't feint and repeat-run, he runs forward and back. Easy to defend, easy to push away from goal. Everytime he gets it, he has his back to goal. That and he's on his heels. He never looks like he's about to pounce, he's continually looking like he's reacting. Contrast that to say Sturridge who always seems to be in space when he gets it. Sturridge runs less, but he runs smarter.
• What a fucking goal. Christ almighty.
• Milner is starting to get to me. He's like the fat mate of the bird you're trying to snare; fucking kills and blocks every attack you make. You work your way round, probe from different angles, get an in, and then old Milner with the "great personality" shunts backwards. I know he's reliable, the consummate pro, solid, etc - but we get nothing out of him going forward. He'll be replaced this summer.
• Another 6 days to prepare for another mid-table side with nothing to play for. If we fuck this up from here, we've only ourselves to blame. I think we only need 7 from our last 9 available points, and we can draw one of our next two. By the time we get to Middlesboro last game, they'll be relegated and thinking of filling in one of the Geordie Shore bits on holiday to Costa del Wherever.
• Oh, and Lallana is fucking brilliant.

 

[Insignificance]

We do them. Last week we had one 30 Seconds before the final whistle was blown, otherwise it has been a little slow. God figure.

Valid points there. Extremelly important three points, and I believe it was well earned. However, that we need such a goal to snatch them shows that the remianing games will be a big test.

At this stage of the season we really need some fresh legs. And we have none. So every point forward will be ugly and hard fought. I can't see us building any strong goal difference so just let us bring more points to the table than Man City.

Lallana was very good to have back. Only thing I missed from him from earlier in the season was his eagerness to release the ball after max 2-3 touches. It was back to twist, turn, turn back again, twist another and then roll the ball to the guy he should have passed it too in the beginning. His ability to release the ball on 1-2 touches was his biggest improvement in the start of the season, but I assume there were plenty of runs and movement to pass it too also at that time.

Milners legs look totally gone. If Klopp had any beliefe in Moreno he would have started him more often during this spring. As it is now you will not get anything from Milner. He has played far to much in a very demanding position. Pep Guardiola mentioned it after the Man United game that his full backs were too old to run up and Down, up and Down, and hence couldn't participate as much going forward as he wanted. Milner is not as old as them, but he has carried that position by himself for the entire season.

Wijnaldum looked shattered as well late on. Can and Lucas has played less and looked to be able to run through midfield much better. This is something we need to look at for next season. We need reliable back ups.

I agree that we didn't do enough first 45. It has become a bad habit over the last month. We need to adjust in interval to have the team playing without just rolling the ball between them.

Mignolet looked solid once again. He has been very good lately.

And Firmino had a strange game. Looked solid and one to reach, but he also looks like the amount of minutes accumulated wears him out. Solid at times and sloppy when it really matters.

And what a goal!!!!

 

[Frogfish]

Milner really has gone downhill recently. I am putting that down to fatigue because his mental acuity seems to be all over the place. His passing lacks sharpness and accuracy most of the time (bar two great passes yesterday - offset by giving the ball away numerous times with poor or dumb passes).

And as Ryan mentioned - and I did too in a reply to Macca just an hour ago in another thread - we are taking far fewer risks on the attack seeking out the safe option far too often when faced with attacking options or on a break when we'll often recycle backwards and of which Milner is currently one of the worst proponents for this.

 

[Insignificance]

Milner really has gone downhill recently. I am putting that down to fatigue because his mental acuity seems to be all over the place. His passing lacks sharpness and accuracy most of the time (bar two great passes yesterday - offset by giving the ball away numerous times with poor or dumb passes).

And as Ryan mentioned - and I did too in a reply to Macca just an hour ago in another thread - we are taking far fewer risks on the attack seeking out the safe option far too often when faced with attacking options or on a break when we'll often recycle backwards and of which Milner is currently one of the worst proponents for this.

But we kept a clean sheet and denied them a sniff, so the less risk you take forward, the more solid you are back.

 

[Frogfish]

But we kept a clean sheet and denied them a sniff, so the less risk you take forward, the more solid you are back.

However we only won due to a 'wonder-goal', which isn't going to happen again this season.

 

[Insignificance]

However we only won due to a 'wonder-goal', which isn't going to happen again this season.

Haha. I guess thats the only way we will win again this season so lets pray that you're wrong.

We should have scored more. One example is after Lallanas wondershot. The rebound there see a loose ball were the Watford defenders are jumping in to defend while Origi backs out. He should have thrown his head in there and won it. That would have been goal.

But goals define games. I guess we had seen a different approach if we didn't lead the game and we were the desperate ones. So it is hard to conclude one way or the other how 2nd half would look like without the tap-in from Can.

 

[Mystic]

It was a massive, vital win for us, we should still be aiming to win every game we have left as that third position is so vital, but it's going to be very difficult, our performances are really starting to peter out now, and the next few games are all about working hard and getting the luck to win games we control, like we did last night, we aren't going to take City for goal difference in this form, we just have to hope we can grind out the results and City slip up again.

I'm hoping that against Southampton, the reinclusion of Lallana in midfield will help reenergise the team, because as has been mentioned already, we look so flat right now, we badly need a lift.

Oh, and a note re Origi, he's looking absolutely gash right? At this present moment I'd be more for having Lallana replace him than Lucas, and that's saying a lot. I was absolutely done with Sturridge earlier in the season, but Origi's decline has made it impossible for him now to come back into the team, right?

 

[Hansern]

I'd be tempted to start Sturridge against Soton, but in all honesty we all know that he's more likely to start on the bench.

 

[Fabio]

Can we not play firmino in the middle and try origi wide?

Least he has pace he might cause a problem when only 1 on 1 with a full back.

 

[Insignificance]

I agree with Firmino central and Lallana out right. Phil should be ok again in the weekend.

 

[Hansern]

Can we not play firmino in the middle and try origi wide?

Least he has pace he might cause a problem when only 1 on 1 with a full back.

Ojo has been pretty good for the U-23s of late. Starting Firmino in the middle and Ojo out wide could be something.
Doubt Klopp will do that with these 3 games left mind.

 

[Fabio]

Ojo has been pretty good for the U-23s of late. Starting Firmino in the middle and Ojo out wide could be something.
Doubt Klopp will do that with these 3 games left mind.

Ojo should have been playing for us since mane got injured, but Ojo got injured for a bit as well. Now he's back it'd be nice to see. We play so much better with an actual winger

 

[keniget]

Can we not play firmino in the middle and try origi wide?

Least he has pace he might cause a problem when only 1 on 1 with a full back.

There were a couple times last night where he was in one on one type situations out wide and rather than play the ball forward to the man in space first time or really run at the defender, he checked back.

He's taking far too many touches at the moment and is nowhere near decisive enough.

I still have some faith in him (hey, I stuck with Babel for long enough) because he has got a lot going for him but he's been hugely disappointing this season and he needs to be thinking about what next season holds for him because surely we won't be indulging him like this again.

 

[keniget]

Also, agree regarding Milner.

He's looked fucked in the last several games and his performance level has generally been pretty average.

I guess it's hard when the alternative is Moreno and the time for taking risks with the selection has probably gone but perhaps at one point TAA on the right and Clyne on the left might have been worth a try?

 

[hmmmmm1]

At this stage of the season, it’s all about points rather than performances. Nice cameo from studge............I wondering if he can stay fit until Sunday!

 

[manwithnoname]

We're at that stage of the season when everyone says "it's only the result that counts" or "the important thing is three points", although that's my attitude at every stage of the season; I couldn't give a tin fuck how we play as long as we win.

Fortunate, because that was another drab and lethargic game of football, in which we lacked pace, invention and goal threat, but illuminated by a resplendent finish from Emre Can, and a rare clean sheet.

Mignolet (7) Well, his kicking was as usual hit and miss. Or rather "Ok and Shite", but he made three or four very safe claims under a high ball, and one splendid save. Left high and dry by the defence for the obligatory fuck up in the area, but saved by the crossbar

Clyne (6) He was busy as ever pounding up and down the right side, and he was always available for the pass. Not the most gifted when it comes to delivering a final ball, though, but solid as teak.

Matip (7) A few clumsy challenges, but overall defended well, and was most impressive when moving forward, passing the ball well and without fuss or drama.

Lovren (7) After his Palace horror show, this was far more like it, with a series of commanding headed clearances and minimal fuck-ups.

Milner (6) One or two good deliveries which deserved better, and got through a huge amount of work. Looked soooo tired though, which is understandable given how much football he's played this season; every time he took a knock, or even a throw-in, he seemed ready to collapse into bed.

Lucas (6) Improvement on the Palace game, he even had time to make some attacking contributions, not least the nice chip into the edge of the area for Can's masterpiece. Lost the ball stupidly once or twice, and that dive was farcical, and he also gave away the obligatory dangerous late free kick that they almost scored from, but a decent enough display overall.

Coutinho (n/a). Nice to have Lallana (7) as a replacement, he was busy and creative, worked hard to link play and also had one sumptuous effort hit the woodwork. poor touch cost him a goal later in the second half after a great ball from Can

Can (8) Wow. What a delightful, thumping and beautifully acrobatic finish. Had another smart effort in the first half, and was impressive indeed after a shaky start.

Wijnaldum (4) Hard to rate when Wijnaldum has one of those games the Newcastle fans warned us about, with his homage to Ralph Ellison the last thing we fucking needed. Hardly had a touch and never looked like he wanted one either.

Firmino (5) A few nice touches when involved in the midfield, but generally one-paced, ineffective and zero goal threat.

Origi (3) Hahahahahahahaha. Fuck off, Divot.

 

[Oncy]

Why is Divock?

 

[nealmac]

A lot of talking points, many of them positive, many of them not so positive. But I'm just going to mention 1 of the positives. Adam Lallana. What a fucking comeback match after his injury. And to be forced to step up to replace Coutinho so early on says a lot about him.

 

[Rosco]

Why is Divock?

I think only Jason can tackle that question

 

[rurikbird]

Origi (3) Hahahahahahahaha. Fuck off, Divot.

It's one thing to criticize or even dislike a player, but this kind of outright cold, seething contempt, repeated ad nauseam and goading other posters into joining either the pro or the anti camp, is really getting too much. I remember a few years back when almost half of this site called Lucas – a limited player for sure, but a model servant of this club – "the cunt" and the match and post-match threads were unbearable. I feel with the constant abuse, as opposed to factually based criticism, of certain players we are inching closer to that point once again.

 

[manwithnoname]

It's one thing to criticize or even dislike a player, but this kind of outright cold, seething contempt, repeated ad nauseam and goading other posters into joining either the pro or the anti camp, is really getting too much. I remember a few years back when almost half of this site called Lucas, of all people, "the cunt" and the match and post-match threads were unbearable. I feel with the constant abuse – as opposed to factually based criticism – of certain players we are inching closer to that point once again.

I think you're being a little over sensitive. He got pilloried in the match thread from all quarters.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Origi was shite in fairness, I don't think he has what it takes to make the next step forward.

No bottle, no tenancity, no winning mentality, poor touch, poor movement and rubbish finishing.

 

[rurikbird]

I think you're being a little over sensitive. He got pilloried in the match thread from all quarters.

I don't think so, Brendan. Actually one of the casualties of this atmosphere of negativity is the loss of ability to criticize a player in a measured way. As an analogy, if you call somebody the son of a whore and (maybe half-jokingly) say they should be put out of their misery, it's kind of forces everyone within earshot to either defend or attack the individual in question, the middle ground and neutrality disappears. Which is I guess the point of this exercise. I don't think it's a good thing.

 

[Grjt2]

I'm a bit of a Wijnaldum fan, but his performance yesterday was criminal. I think (like Milner) at the end of a tough season his legs are shot, but that doesn't excuse what appeared to be pretty transparent attempts to hide from passes and not take accountability for any key decisions whatsoever. Very very poor (and surely he cant be suffering from low confidence)

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't think so, Brendan. Actually one of the casualties of this atmosphere of negativity is the loss of ability to criticize a player in a measured way. As an analogy, if you call somebody the son of a whore and (maybe half-jokingly) say they should be put out of their misery, it's kind of forces everyone within earshot to either defend or attack the individual in question, the middle ground and neutrality disappears. Which is I guess the point of this exercise. I don't think it's a good thing.

You're right, it's perhaps "the loss of ability to criticise a player in a measured way" that led to some posters describing him as a "world class talent" as recently as December, and predicting he would score "15-20" goals and bizarrely mentioning me in any such neutral critique "Origi is clearly showing that he's got the potential to be this no nonsense twenty goal a season striker that Brendan craves so much, yet he absolutely despises him." and that anyone who wasn't excited by him had something wrong with them because he "makes finishing look expertly simple".

 

[manwithnoname]

I'm a bit of a Wijnaldum fan, but his performance yesterday was criminal. I think (like Milner) at the end of a tough season his legs are shot, but that doesn't excuse what appeared to be pretty transparent attempts to hide from passes and not take accountability for any key decisions whatsoever. Very very poor (and surely he cant be suffering from low confidence)

"Transparent attempts"

Heh heh

 

[Mystic]

Brendan, have you discovered the bold functionality today?

 

[Insignificance]

You're right, it's perhaps "the loss of ability to criticise a player in a measured way" that led to some posters describing him as a "world class talent" as recently as December, and predicting he would score "15-20" goals and bizarrely mentioning me in any such neutral critique "Origi is clearly showing that he's got the potential to be this no nonsense twenty goal a season striker that Brendan craves so much, yet he absolutely despises him." and that anyone who wasn't excited by him had something wrong with them because he "makes finishing look expertly simple".

Wow. You of all are going to use a post match thread to have a go at one of our players in a case to prove some bullshit rage against other posters.... didn't see that coming....

What happened to not giving a shit as long as 3 points were secured? Well, we won.

 

[manwithnoname]

Wow. You of all are going to use a post match thread to have a go at one of our players in a case to prove some bullshit rage against other posters.... didn't see that coming....

What happened to not giving a shit as long as 3 points were secured? Well, we won.

I was simply responding to a very strange post criticising my criticism, simply because I rated Origi as a (3) - which was generous - and instead of adding further insult with a forensic demolition job of his inept, palsied display, let him off lightly with a "hahahahahahaha"

I was being kind, but now look.

 

[Insignificance]

I was simply responding to a very strange post criticising my criticism, simply because I rated Origi as a (3) - which was generous - and instead of adding further insult with a forensic demolition job of his inept, palsied display, let him off lightly with a "hahahahahahaha"

I was being kind, but now look.

Origi har a tough game no doubt. He has been of form and struggle to make an impact. Maybe his role doesn't suit him, maybe our style is too demanding, maybe his mother is sick and it affect him. I dont really know why he is not up to it.

His talent is there, he is strong and fast...

'Hahahahahahaha' sums you up more than him Maybe...