Tottenham Riots

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383895#msg1383895 date=1313946754]
It's not contradictory at all.

Read the post
[/quote]


I have and it is, read my response.


You've highlighted some good points on prisons but you're ranting now and it's spoiling the debate. So I'm gonna drop out of this because you're getting seemly het up over it.

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383901#msg1383901 date=1313947350]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383897#msg1383897 date=1313946909]
So your solution to the problem of people on short term prison sentences having a higher re-offending rate than people given community service is simply to give them longer prison sentences?
[/quote]


In order for them to gain the skills to fit into society. If they can do this quickly then their stay in prison is shorter.
[/quote]

Whilst there are some good training schemes available in prison, these are frequently under-funded as the money that should be used by them (which is paid for by us) gets sidelined and used to subsidise further education college's main programmes, knowing that no-one will ever really kick up a fuss about prison education schemes being unable to afford proper resources (I know this because I know a couple of people who teach in prison). It can also be very difficult to teach somebody skills when they may miss out large sections due to solitary, or lockdowns, or any other number of reasons - therefore quite often the timing of the sentence and the education scheme don't always match that well.

However, it seems you're suggesting the sentence should be tailored to the scheme itself, which is an interesting idea. I think it might be difficult to implement, due to the sentencing being a separate entity and because you might have to tailor the sentencing to individual schemes - which would obviously mean deciding what their programme of rehabilitation was in advance . . . but it's certainly an idea. I think if people could swallow a longer and more personalised sentencing then it could be pretty useful

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383903#msg1383903 date=1313947574]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383895#msg1383895 date=1313946754]
It's not contradictory at all.

Read the post
[/quote]


I have and it is, read my response.


You've highlighted some good points on prisons but you're ranting now and it's spoiling the debate. So I'm gonna drop out of this because you're getting seemly het up over it.
[/quote]

I'm not getting het up, but you obviously haven't read the post properly, otherwise you would see there isn't any contradiction.

*Read* it, don't skim it. I've told you, in detail, the exact situation. I was making the point that some people think *everybody* is entitled to a Playstation, they're not. I also made the point that the only ones allowed are PS1 or PS2, which you cannot get from Argos and so therefore can only receive from outside whilst you are on remand and therefore still technically innocent.

A prisoner cannot receive, nor can they go out and buy, a PS3

 

[singlerider]

And by the way, I'm not ranting.

I'm telling you how it actually is. Personally, I would say that making a load of angry assumptions about something because of stuff you've read about is ranting, telling people how things actually are, direct (or nearly direct) from the horses mouth and dispelling myths that are propagated by the media is not ranting

 

[Sunny]

Are they allowed an Xbox ?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383885#msg1383885 date=1313945228]
Less crime.


Why defend the criminal? Why provide them with jobs via community service when that job could go to a non-criminal? If they are going to re-offend then keep them away from society, if that means prison then so be it. Apply the social training in an area where they can't affect it in a negative way until they acquire the skills to affect it positively.


What's your criteria? Save money?
[/quote]

Community service is not taking jobs from anyone. It is unpaid and is work that would normally be done by volunteers or not done at all. Its stuff like picking up litter, painting things, working in charity shops, gardening etc.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383901#msg1383901 date=1313947350]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383897#msg1383897 date=1313946909]
So your solution to the problem of people on short term prison sentences having a higher re-offending rate than people given community service is simply to give them longer prison sentences?
[/quote]


In order for them to gain the skills to fit into society. If they can do this quickly then their stay in prison is shorter.
[/quote]

What about the ones who had jobs already and don't need to learn a new trade?

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=46360.msg1383923#msg1383923 date=1313950005]
Are they allowed an Xbox ?
[/quote]

Not since the Red Ring Riot of Rotherham

 

[Richey]

The funny thing is that people complain about prisoners having playstations and TVs etc and use it as an argument about prisons and the justice system being soft but one of the reasons prisoners have these things is because there are so many prisoners, so in some ways it is a sign that the system is quite tough, in that lots of people are sent to jail.

Prisoners are not given TVs and allowed (in some cases) to have playstations through kindness, it's to keep them quiet. If there were less prisoners, and therefore more staff per prisoner and more activity, such as education, then they might well not all have TVs and be locked up for so long.

 

[themn]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383942#msg1383942 date=1313950828]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=46360.msg1383923#msg1383923 date=1313950005]
Are they allowed an Xbox ?
[/quote]

Not since the Red Ring Riot of Rotherham
[/quote]

Hahahahahahaaa !

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1383956#msg1383956 date=1313951522]
The funny thing is that people complain about prisoners having playstations and TVs etc and use it as an argument about prisons and the justice system being soft but one of the reasons prisoners have these things is because there are so many prisoners, so in some ways it is a sign that the system is quite tough, in that lots of people are sent to jail.

Prisoners are not given TVs and allowed (in some cases) to have playstations through kindness, it's to keep them quiet. If there were less prisoners, and therefore more staff per prisoner and more activity, such as education, then they might well not all have TVs and be locked up for so long.
[/quote]


Spend money on more staff then. Helps to create jobs not pamper to the inmates.


And before you go through the money argument, I'd rather pay to keep criminals locked up in an environment where they can get rehabitulated.

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1383940#msg1383940 date=1313950792]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383901#msg1383901 date=1313947350]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383897#msg1383897 date=1313946909]
So your solution to the problem of people on short term prison sentences having a higher re-offending rate than people given community service is simply to give them longer prison sentences?
[/quote]


In order for them to gain the skills to fit into society. If they can do this quickly then their stay in prison is shorter.
[/quote]

What about the ones who had jobs already and don't need to learn a new trade?
[/quote]


Why are they in prison? That's the skill they need to learn, the social skills, not necessarily the trade skills.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1384079#msg1384079 date=1313956386]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1383940#msg1383940 date=1313950792]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383901#msg1383901 date=1313947350]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383897#msg1383897 date=1313946909]
So your solution to the problem of people on short term prison sentences having a higher re-offending rate than people given community service is simply to give them longer prison sentences?
[/quote]


In order for them to gain the skills to fit into society. If they can do this quickly then their stay in prison is shorter.
[/quote]

What about the ones who had jobs already and don't need to learn a new trade?
[/quote]


Why are they in prison? That's the skill they need to learn, the social skills, not necessarily the trade skills.
[/quote]

Depends on the offence really doesn't it? Say you have someone who doesn't pay their council tax or gets into a fight when they are drunk or something. Not really a danger to society, although someone clearly with problems. Wouldn't it just make matters worse to take their job away from them (and their family), lock them up and teach them social skills?

Sometimes the justice system needs to show some respect for the circumstances of the offender so that the offender will go on to show more respect for society in return

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1384096#msg1384096 date=1313957512]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1384079#msg1384079 date=1313956386]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1383940#msg1383940 date=1313950792]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383901#msg1383901 date=1313947350]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1383897#msg1383897 date=1313946909]
So your solution to the problem of people on short term prison sentences having a higher re-offending rate than people given community service is simply to give them longer prison sentences?
[/quote]


In order for them to gain the skills to fit into society. If they can do this quickly then their stay in prison is shorter.
[/quote]

What about the ones who had jobs already and don't need to learn a new trade?
[/quote]


Why are they in prison? That's the skill they need to learn, the social skills, not necessarily the trade skills.
[/quote]

Depends on the offence really doesn't it? Say you have someone who doesn't pay their council tax or gets into a fight when they are drunk or something. Not really a danger to society, although someone clearly with problems. Wouldn't it just make matters worse to take their job away from them (and their family), lock them up and teach them social skills?

Sometimes the justice system needs to show some respect for the circumstances of the offender so that the offender will go on to show more respect for society in return
[/quote]


In those circumstances they may never go to prison and instead will be fined for not paying a council tax or being in the fight. I'm not saying the justice system should be avoided (trials etc) but if they get sentenced and they have the skills to re-integrate into society then their prison sentence will be over once they've paid their penance.


Each case is different and should be treated as such as everyone agrees.


In some cases, like the FB riot inciters, examples have to be set so that society doesn't reduce into anarchy and chaos. Respect works both ways.

 

[singlerider]

I'm loving Richey going all looney left in this thread

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1382345#msg1382345 date=1313798123]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=46360.msg1381971#msg1381971 date=1313733891]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1381675#msg1381675 date=1313672503]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=46360.msg1381322#msg1381322 date=1313590287]
Four years in jail for posting something on Facebook is absurd.
[/quote]

Of course it is, but who are we to question it?
[/quote]

What sentence should there be for inciting riot?
[/quote]

A sentence more lenient than rioting. Incitement of a crime always carries less of a sentence than that committing of the act. If the rioters are getting 7-8 years in FB then I suppose there is some logic, but I do not believe that to be the case at all.
[/quote]

I've not heard of those inciting, instigating or masterminding crimes getting a shorter sentence. I think you may have got that the wrong way round.

Why would you be 'more lenient' toward the someone planning or inciting a crime?

It seems sort of counter-intuitive to reward an instigator.

 

[FoxForceFive]

I worry about jail overcrowding. Anyone who has watched the us series on jails or Louis theraux's show on miami jail will understand why that then simply becomes a criminal society, not a deterrent or rehabilitation centre by any means.

If jail sentences in non-violent cases need to be scrapped in favour of much more constructive duties like community service, cleaning hospitals, serving as labourers building public buildings, & loads of other things that do so much more than locking someone away at great expense. Throw in structured courses that educate them about society & meeting or seeing the results of victims of crime & you could actually get some reduction in the shocking reoffending levels that exist currently of ex-prisoners.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1384143#msg1384143 date=1313964953]
I'm loving Richey going all looney left in this thread
[/quote]

Right on comrade!

 

[jexykrodic]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=46360.msg1384247#msg1384247 date=1314002665]
I worry about jail overcrowding. Anyone who has watched the us series on jails or Louis theraux's show on miami jail will understand why that then simply becomes a criminal society, not a deterrent or rehabilitation centre by any means.

If jail sentences in non-violent cases need to be scrapped in favour of much more constructive duties like community service, cleaning hospitals, serving as labourers building public buildings, & loads of other things that do so much more than locking someone away at great expense. Throw in structured courses that educate them about society & meeting or seeing the results of victims of crime & you could actually get some reduction in the shocking reoffending levels that exist currently of ex-prisoners.
[/quote]

This. I would also make sentences open ended so that full value is had from offenders: complete the plan and your conviction is spent. None of this turning up for a defined period all sullen and unco-operative stuff, let offenders repay in full.

 

[LarryHagman]

If Tony Blair hadn't have pretended to be a Newcastle fan, I would have assumed he was Singlerider.

Mate, you are the most smug wrong person that ever walked the Earth. But, obviously, there's no point telling you that.

So...... carry on.

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=46360.msg1384247#msg1384247 date=1314002665]
I worry about jail overcrowding. Anyone who has watched the us series on jails or Louis theraux's show on miami jail will understand why that then simply becomes a criminal society, not a deterrent or rehabilitation centre by any means.

If jail sentences in non-violent cases need to be scrapped in favour of much more constructive duties like community service, cleaning hospitals, serving as labourers building public buildings, & loads of other things that do so much more than locking someone away at great expense. Throw in structured courses that educate them about society & meeting or seeing the results of victims of crime & you could actually get some reduction in the shocking reoffending levels that exist currently of ex-prisoners.
[/quote]


There are non-criminals that could do that as a job. Why give it to a criminal over an innocent member of the public?

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=46360.msg1384527#msg1384527 date=1314020511]
If Tony Blair hadn't have pretended to be a Newcastle fan, I would have assumed he was Singlerider.

Mate, you are the most smug wrong person that ever walked the Earth. But, obviously, there's no point telling you that.

So...... carry on.
[/quote]

Prove me wrong.

Back up what you're saying, as I have - or even start by actually offering an opinion and an angle other than "you're wrong".

Where am I wrong? What am I wrong about?

Oh, and by the way - Tony Blair? Fuck you!

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1384557#msg1384557 date=1314022464]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=46360.msg1384247#msg1384247 date=1314002665]
I worry about jail overcrowding. Anyone who has watched the us series on jails or Louis theraux's show on miami jail will understand why that then simply becomes a criminal society, not a deterrent or rehabilitation centre by any means.

If jail sentences in non-violent cases need to be scrapped in favour of much more constructive duties like community service, cleaning hospitals, serving as labourers building public buildings, & loads of other things that do so much more than locking someone away at great expense. Throw in structured courses that educate them about society & meeting or seeing the results of victims of crime & you could actually get some reduction in the shocking reoffending levels that exist currently of ex-prisoners.
[/quote]


There are non-criminals that could do that as a job. Why give it to a criminal over an innocent member of the public?
[/quote]

So there aren't more cleaners needed in hospitals? I doubt it. Same for helping with construction, the budget could remain the same but the job could be completed more quickly.

Besides, there's hundreds of jobs that need doing councils can't afford to have done thanks to government cuts, so I don't think it's really an issue.

Why you think locking up so many people at the taxpayers expense for them simply to hone their criminal skills & reoffend is beyond me. For violent crimes, fuck yes, for non-violent? Waste of money & futile in many cases.

 

[Sunny]

You've got admit mate you are kind of on a mission at a moment. Get your points across by all means but I do think you're running the danger of becoming one of those loonies who preaches that much that people stop listening after a while. You know, the "fucks sake not him again" syndrome.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1384557#msg1384557 date=1314022464]

There are non-criminals that could do that as a job. Why give it to a criminal over an innocent member of the public?
[/quote]

Then they can do it if they like!!

Community service is not paid and it is not work that is taken away from anyone. The work done would otherwise be done by volunteers

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=46360.msg1384571#msg1384571 date=1314023222]
You've got admit mate you are kind of on a mission at a moment. Get your points across by all means but I do think you're running the danger of becoming one of those loonies who preaches that much that people stop listening after a while. You know, the "fucks sake not him again" syndrome.
[/quote]

Fair doos.

Their loss though

😉

EDIT: (thought I'd better insert a smilie)

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=46360.msg1384570#msg1384570 date=1314023208]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1384557#msg1384557 date=1314022464]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=46360.msg1384247#msg1384247 date=1314002665]
I worry about jail overcrowding. Anyone who has watched the us series on jails or Louis theraux's show on miami jail will understand why that then simply becomes a criminal society, not a deterrent or rehabilitation centre by any means.

If jail sentences in non-violent cases need to be scrapped in favour of much more constructive duties like community service, cleaning hospitals, serving as labourers building public buildings, & loads of other things that do so much more than locking someone away at great expense. Throw in structured courses that educate them about society & meeting or seeing the results of victims of crime & you could actually get some reduction in the shocking reoffending levels that exist currently of ex-prisoners.
[/quote]


There are non-criminals that could do that as a job. Why give it to a criminal over an innocent member of the public?
[/quote]

So there aren't more cleaners needed in hospitals? I doubt it. Same for helping with construction, the budget could remain the same but the job could be completed more quickly.

Besides, there's hundreds of jobs that need doing councils can't afford to have done thanks to government cuts, so I don't think it's really an issue.

Why you think locking up so many people at the taxpayers expense for them simply to hone their criminal skills & reoffend is beyond me. For violent crimes, fuck yes, for non-violent? Waste of money & futile in many cases.
[/quote]
Plenty of people unemployed as well! And would you really trust a criminal to build your house?

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1384574#msg1384574 date=1314023302]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1384557#msg1384557 date=1314022464]

There are non-criminals that could do that as a job. Why give it to a criminal over an innocent member of the public?
[/quote]

Then they can do it if they like!!

Community service is not paid and it is not work that is taken away from anyone. The work done would otherwise be done by volunteers
[/quote]

I can live with that, the community service bit. What will the volunteers do?

 

[singlerider]

Have a nice cup of tea and a sit down

 

[Richey]

So your reasoning is that we should lock up more criminals so law abiding people who volunteer can have more to do?

and yes i would let a criminal build my house if it was a builder who had broken the law. Probably not otherwise, but they wouldn't be asked to would they?