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Tottenham Riots

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[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=46360.msg1381784#msg1381784 date=1313684088]
Only if they teach the fuckers to make a new train whilst they're in there to reduce the increase in rail fares.

That figure is shocking. Surely it'd be easier to pay someone to wake them up in their house every morning by punching them in the face & telling them how stupid they are? More satisfying too.
[/quote]

I'd do that for free (providing they were smaller than me, handcuffed, and possibly drugged)
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382019#msg1382019 date=1313745631]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=46360.msg1382016#msg1382016 date=1313745491]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1381846#msg1381846 date=1313692237]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1381810#msg1381810 date=1313688135]
I have no idea.

Presumably it's an aggregate cost incorporating staff wages, upkeep of buildings etc and everything
[/quote]

So strictly speaking putting more people in prison would bring the average down then!
[/quote]

haha

Lets encourage overcrowding.
[/quote]

They already are - 600 people locked up over the last week and the prisons are getting to the stage where they're saying 3 to a cell
[/quote]

Although my initial response was in jest, your serious answer requires an equally serous reply.

I don't care. Seriously, its not a holiday camp, its a punishment, keep shoving them in and hope of few of them don't like and decide never to come back.
 
That level of overcrowding will ensure that as well as punishing the prisoners, we're punishing the prison officers who have to deal with them as well.

They may be screws, but they've got rights too
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382012#msg1382012 date=1313744813]
As an arbitrary figure I've just plucked from the sky (that I've a feeling I may have heard bandied about, but am not sure) I reckon a couple of hundred million quid should cover it easy.

As perspective, let us consider the figures for the bank bailout run between £850bn to £1.2trillion, let's call it a nice round trillion.

So, That's:

£200 000 000

VS

£1 000 000 000 000

But the rioters should get their benefits taken away whilst the bankers are still collecting their bonuses.

We are *mental*

EDIT: I've just Googled it, they reckon £100M, so let's stick with a couple of hundred to be safe
[/quote]

It shouldn't be one or the other, really. I don't advocate taking benefits away, but the people involved should be punished harshly, as well as the bankers.
 
Also - is prison solely meant as a punishment?

Because if that's the case it'd probably be far cheaper, more effective and more satisfying to most people to dispense with prison and instead have a prime-time tv show that combines Judge Judy, Takeshi's Castle and MMA:

Judge Judy sentences them, like Takeshi's Castle they get the option of having a little weedy guy, an average bloke or a fucking beast, and then we all watch that person kick the shit out of them for the next 5 minutes.

If punishment is what you want that would be a far better option
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382028#msg1382028 date=1313746977]
Also - is prison solely meant as a punishment?
[/quote]

It's as much about punishment as it is about getting the person away from the general public. Redemption should play some part, but prisoners serve no good in prison. Maybe in the best case scenario they improve themselves as an individual, but that doesn't benefit those effected by the crime and some crimes can never be redeemed. In an ideal world the prisoners would go round making things up to those they've effected, My Name is Earl style, but this isn't a tv show

However I don't know why you are asking this or who this is aimed at. None of us on 6CM invented the concept of prison you know. I'm sure most of us would have our own ideas of what would be done with criminals but those options aren't available.

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382028#msg1382028 date=1313746977]
Because if that's the case it'd probably be far cheaper, more effective and more satisfying to most people to dispense with prison and instead have a prime-time tv show that combines Judge Judy, Takeshi's Castle and MMA:

Judge Judy sentences them, like Takeshi's Castle they get the option of having a little weedy guy, an average bloke or a fucking beast, and then we all watch that person kick the shit out of them for the next 5 minutes.

If punishment is what you want that would be a far better option
[/quote]

Are you high?
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382028#msg1382028 date=1313746977]
Also - is prison solely meant as a punishment?

Because if that's the case it'd probably be far cheaper, more effective and more satisfying to most people to dispense with prison and instead have a prime-time tv show that combines Judge Judy, Takeshi's Castle and MMA:

Judge Judy sentences them, like Takeshi's Castle they get the option of having a little weedy guy, an average bloke or a fucking beast, and then we all watch that person kick the shit out of them for the next 5 minutes.

If punishment is what you want that would be a far better option
[/quote]

It's primarily about punishment SR mate. It's about protecting the public also. Rehabilitation should also be an aim of course.
 
[quote author=refugee link=topic=46360.msg1382069#msg1382069 date=1313755087]
Are you high?
[/quote]

You don't have to be high to see that's an absolute fucking *winner* of a show.

Being high would just make it stratospherically amazing rather than just plain fucking awesome.

You could even get celebrity guest specials, like an Eastenders spectacular - the bloke who gets nicked for a bit of white-collar fraud gets Peggy Mitchell slapping him around a bit screaming "You slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg!", the little cunt that robbed a pensioners handbag gets Ian Beale kicking him in the nuts and talking to him in that annoying nasal voice, whilst the bloke that stabbed a taxi driver gets Phil Mitchell shutting his head in a car door shouting "SHUT IT YOU MUG!"
 
You could have a Top Gear special, with some elaborate plotline where Jeremy Clarkson, James May and Richard Hammond all have to arrive at a specified location whilst beating the fuck out of the guilty at the same time.

Richard Hammond would probably have to get some raw deal kinda thing, like he's dragging them behind a horse Wild-West style, except rather than being given a proper horse he's got a shitty Blackpool seaside donkey.

James May would have to have some traditionalist proper old fashioned thing, like he has to get there by galley ship, powered by the prisoner who he liberally whips all of the way.

Clarkson, naturally, would have to have some thing that was way cooler than the others, like he gets the prisoner who happens to be a midget, and he's handcuffed to him, and the midget is slowing him down so he has to constantly kick the shit out of him the whole way.

I'm a fucking genius, I should be in TV, this is solid gold stuff
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382081#msg1382081 date=1313756333]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=46360.msg1382069#msg1382069 date=1313755087]
Are you high?
[/quote]

You don't have to be high to see that's an absolute fucking *winner* of a show.

Being high would just make it stratospherically amazing rather than just plain fucking awesome.

You could even get celebrity guest specials, like an Eastenders spectacular - the bloke who gets nicked for a bit of white-collar fraud gets Peggy Mitchell slapping him around a bit screaming "You slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg!", the little cunt that robbed a pensioners handbag gets Ian Beale kicking him in the nuts and talking to him in that annoying nasal voice, whilst the bloke that stabbed a taxi driver gets Phil Mitchell shutting his head in a car door shouting "SHUT IT YOU MUG!"
[/quote]

Quite.
 
Prison is of course a mixture of punishment, protecting the public and rehabilitation but i do think it should be kept for just the most serious of offenders in order for all three to work.

People on short sentences won't be rehabilitated and the public doesn't really need protecting from them, otherwise they'd be in longer.
And the number of those in for short sentences means that resources that could be used on rehabilitating longer term prisoners are less, so it becomes less effective there too.

The question of course is what you stop being an offence that results in prison and what kind of deterrent you put in its place. I'm sure there are quite a few cases where people consider what might happen if they get caught and decide not to take the risk. I'm not sure community service or a fine would be considered as as much of a deterrent.
 
[size=18pt]COMING SOON:[/size] From the people that brought you the acclaimed Life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes . . .

[size=14pt]Criminal World[/size]

DI Gene Hunt, that bird that's sort of quite fit, and one of them other blokes in the background kick the shit out of criminals in a one-off BBC special
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1382103#msg1382103 date=1313757883]
Prison is of course a mixture of punishment, protecting the public and rehabilitation but i do think it should be kept for just the most serious of offenders in order for all three to work.

People on short sentences won't be rehabilitated and the public doesn't really need protecting from them, otherwise they'd be in longer.
And the number of those in for short sentences means that resources that could be used on rehabilitating longer term prisoners are less, so it becomes less effective there too.

The question of course is what you stop being an offence that results in prison and what kind of deterrent you put in its place. I'm sure there are quite a few cases where people consider what might happen if they get caught and decide not to take the risk. I'm not sure community service or a fine would be considered as as much of a deterrent.
[/quote]

I agree with you RE: community service as an alternative to short prison sentences.

It's in the Ministry of Justice's own figures that for people serving short prison sentences of less than a year 59% reoffend, and for these same crimes community service was 8 percentage points more effective for cutting reoffending.

What I'm not sure about is whether prison really acts a deterrent or not - not because prisoners have it easy and they're all given Playstations and molly-coddled (and anyone who actually believes that bollocks needs locking up) - but because I believe that for some people it actually has a twisted sort of appeal.

For some dickheads it'll be seen as a badge of honour that they can brag about (and it won't really affect their prospects, which were non-existent in the first place).

Tragically, for some others I think it is seen - not as an easy way out so much, but as a way of surviving. In prison they get a roof over their heads, they get fed, they have a job and they have a place and a role within that societal microcosm. On the outside they can't get a job, they have to pay rent, they have to buy food, they have to pay bills - they're completely on the fringes of society looking in without any idea or hope of becoming a part of it - so committing a crime and going to prison seems perversely attractive.

Rational even

EDIT: sorry, forgot the source:

http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/Fact%20File%20June%202011%20web.pdf
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382025#msg1382025 date=1313746632]
That level of overcrowding will ensure that as well as punishing the prisoners, we're punishing the prison officers who have to deal with them as well.

They may be screws, but they've got rights too
[/quote]

Do the police have the same rights as screws? Not aimed at you in particular but some people on various forums seem to be blaming the police wholesale for this.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=46360.msg1381971#msg1381971 date=1313733891]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=46360.msg1381675#msg1381675 date=1313672503]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=46360.msg1381322#msg1381322 date=1313590287]
Four years in jail for posting something on Facebook is absurd.
[/quote]

Of course it is, but who are we to question it?
[/quote]

What sentence should there be for inciting riot?
[/quote]

A sentence more lenient than rioting. Incitement of a crime always carries less of a sentence than that committing of the act. If the rioters are getting 7-8 years in FB then I suppose there is some logic, but I do not believe that to be the case at all.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=46360.msg1382103#msg1382103 date=1313757883]
Prison is of course a mixture of punishment, protecting the public and rehabilitation but i do think it should be kept for just the most serious of offenders in order for all three to work.

People on short sentences won't be rehabilitated and the public doesn't really need protecting from them, otherwise they'd be in longer.
And the number of those in for short sentences means that resources that could be used on rehabilitating longer term prisoners are less, so it becomes less effective there too.

The question of course is what you stop being an offence that results in prison and what kind of deterrent you put in its place. I'm sure there are quite a few cases where people consider what might happen if they get caught and decide not to take the risk. I'm not sure community service or a fine would be considered as as much of a deterrent.
[/quote]

That's absolutely spot on. Prison, for me, should be for the most dangerous members in society, and if we cannot think of fitting punishments for those of non-violent law-breakers then we're just not being creative enough. Short-term prison sentences have cost the country hundreds of billions of pounds with barely any positive results to show from it.. It's also worth noting that prisons have been engrained into our minds for thousands of years now. The popular stance in society is to be happy to send people to prison, regardless of the cost, the low rehab figures, because that's just what should happen. I think it's perfectly obvious that a new approach has been needed for a very long time, but, for better or worse, prison is a populist topic for society and therefore politicians, which leaves the prospect of wholesale, systematic changes extremely unlikely.
 
I never implied that it was outdated. I implied that society has always turned to prison as a way of dealing with lawbreakers and that it's so engrained into our mindset that discussing alternatives is seen as liberal extremism, with petty, pointless marks like the above thrown out. It's amazing how defensive and close-minded people can be of a system which clearly needs improving upon.

Prison has it's rightful place within the criminal justice system and it always will, but it shouldn't be seen as suitable or even relevant to non-violent offenders. It should offer protection to law-abiding citizens, because that's all it's capable of.

It's certainly not the answer to many problems the CJ system faces on a daily basis, and it's perfectly evident that we're over-reliant on custodial sentences.
 
Yep, let's not make a system work cos it's too popular or too expensive, let's spend an equal amount of money on a complete new system, say, sending the non-violent criminals on holiday that a non-criminal will have to pay an absolute fortune on, for free!


Way. To. Go.
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1382376#msg1382376 date=1313808697]
Yep, let's not make a system work cos it's too popular or too expensive, let's spend an equal amount of money on a complete new system, say, sending the non-violent criminals on holiday that a non-criminal will have to pay an absolute fortune on, for free!


Way. To. Go.
[/quote]

No need.

The better system exists, it's more effective and costs less.

Are you saying you'd rather spend more money on sending somebody to prison - which will increase the chance of reoffending, not to mention increase the likelihood of them progressing from petty crime to something more serious - purely because it fits your notion of what is appropriate?
 
Back in the day they'd cut out your tongue or chop your hands off. We're more evolved now however.

What better way to give back to the society you've damaged by donating your organs to patients in desperate need.

I sentence you to a kidney and bone marrow donation!
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=46360.msg1382391#msg1382391 date=1313821466]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1382376#msg1382376 date=1313808697]
Yep, let's not make a system work cos it's too popular or too expensive, let's spend an equal amount of money on a complete new system, say, sending the non-violent criminals on holiday that a non-criminal will have to pay an absolute fortune on, for free!


Way. To. Go.
[/quote]

No need.

The better system exists, it's more effective and costs less.

Are you saying you'd rather spend more money on sending somebody to prison - which will increase the chance of reoffending, not to mention increase the likelihood of them progressing from petty crime to something more serious - purely because it fits your notion of what is appropriate?
[/quote]
Depends, if you're that system that allows criminals to go home in the evening, have playstations and TV in their cells and sends deliquents to go on expensive holidays is really pampering to the people that commit crime rather spending that money on the victims and the effect of their actions.
A prison should be a deterrent to crime, it should be harsh (not inhumane) where your freedom is taken away and you're left in solitude to think how you have affected society in a bad way. You shouldn't have any perks that the general public has. It's very much like the 'naughty step', parents use to teach their kids when they've been bad but on a grander scale.
 
Not being funny, but have you ever been to prison, or do you know anybody who has been?

Like, properly know them - as in been to visit them on a regular basis and spoken with extensively about what it's actually like on there - and not in some bullshit bravado "I can do bird no worries" kind of way.

Because otherwise it's likely that you've got your opinions on this via some secondary source, such as a newspaper, which is most likely promoting a particular agenda - such as "prison's so fucking easy, it's like a holiday camp, they all get pampered and they all get the latest playstations and sky tv blah blah blah".

And I can tell you for a fact that that is complete fucking bullshit
 
No I haven't.

Have you ever been victimised? Has your friends or family? Been on the receiving end of someone bricking your windows day after day after day? And then watch them go scott free?

Society will be one fucked up place when look after the criminals over the victims.
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=46360.msg1383492#msg1383492 date=1313880952]
No I haven't.
[/quote]

Right, so will you then accept that actually this idea you've got about prison being some holiday camp and society rewarding criminals is actually largely based upon information you've been spoonfed.

Because it simply isn't true.

Prison is not an easy place to be, and nor do they try to make it easy for criminals or shower the in luxuries. That's just plain fucking bullshit made up by reactionary right wing cunts like the Daily Mail.

It simply isn't true.

It has no basis in reality.

It's made up bollocks.

Now, by no means am I saying the system is perfect, and obviously there are scenarios where heinous things are done and justice is not served - for me one of the most horrific stories of recent times was the Mother who topped herself and killed her disabled Daughter because of the campaign of persecution they had suffered for years:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/8279106.stm

Now - if ever there was a time and a place for some good old fashioned policing where they pull out a big stick and beat the shit out of you then this was it - butthat didn't happen here and instead we see the people that get battered are people protesting about Capitalism, or news vendors walking down the street pissed, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The system is by no means perfect - there's absolutely no fucking doubt about that, but that doesn't mean that because some mistakes have been made the system is inherently soft and therefore we should avoid the hard evidence that proves certain methods are less effective than others.

If you want revenge then fine - let's just beat the shit out of people, on prime time telly, for our entertainment.

If you want a punishment that actually contributes some good to the community affected by criminal actions, doesn't cost the entire country a huge amount of money, and makes it less likely that the criminal will reoffend - then in some cases, not all, but some, you need to give up on this idea that prison is the only way
 
SR - no one involved in those riots were at the wrong place at the wrong time. They burnt the fuck out of places, they smashed shops and stole from people whose very lives depends upon it. There were other people that incited it, caused massive destruction across the fucking country. Not a 3rd world country, Britain. A place that's meant to be civilised.

And here's you seemly defending them without an iota of a mention of the victims and how they have been affecting. As soon as a judge is a little harsh on a inciter (maybe to set an example), you're here, saying it's unfair to the criminal.

I absolutely agree that no system is perfect, and I can guarantee the system you're trying to advocate is just as bad as the one I am.

Prison is shit, I hope it remains so.
 
And I noticed you didnt answer my question. Have you ever been a victim of a crime. Not some burglary, but one when youve been threatened or terrorised?
 
Where the fuck am I defending the rioters?

I'm merely making the point that A) community service can be a more constructive and more effective punishment than short term prison sentences, and B) anyone that thinks people get an easy life in prison don't know what the fuck they're talking about
 
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