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Tommy Smith on Downing and wingers

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mark1975

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Decent article:

Tommy Smith believes Stewart Downing will add a completely new dimension to Liverpool's attack - and identified him as the stand-out English winger in the Barclays Premier League.

The Anfield Iron is confident the former Aston Villa man can be a huge success on Merseyside and reckons he has all the attributes to get the very best out of Andy Carroll.

Smith said: "It's something I've been going on about for a long time because we've needed wingers desperately.

"I'm delighted we've got Downing. He impressed me when I saw him last season and he was certainly Villa's best player.

"He creates and scores goals, and the fact he's forced his way into the England set-up shows how much he has improved.

"When you look around there aren't many top wingers in the Premier League so they aren't cheap to pick up.

"But if I could have picked any of them to sign for Liverpool it would have been him.

"We paid a lot of money for Andy Carroll but we didn't get to see much of him last season due to injuries. When he did play the one thing he was missing was decent service from the flanks.

"Downing will get to the byline and put balls into the box for Carroll to attack. I'm sure Downing will help to improve Carroll's game."

During Smith's era as a Kop favourite, Liverpool secured countless titles and conquered Europe for the very first time.

He is convinced that the success of the 60s and 70s owed much to the quality of players in the wide areas and is hopeful Downing can go on to emulate some of the greats of yesteryear.

"We always played with a couple of wingers and they played a huge part in the success we enjoyed," he said.

"Everyone talked about our goal scorers but the wingers were very under-rated.

"My mate Cally is up there with the best wingers I've ever seen. He was quick and he would race down the right, get to the byline and whip in a great cross.

"Cally didn't score that many but he would drag teams apart and created so many goals. Look at the '65 FA Cup final, it was his delivery which set up Ian St John for the winner against Leeds.

"In the 60s we would have Cally on the right and Peter on the left. We could attack sides down either side.

"Peter was more of a crowd puller. He loved to take the mickey out of the full-back. He would jump over the ball and the full-back didn't know where to go.

"He was a very good player but sometimes he would try to do too much with the ball. Willie Stevenson used to scream at him for never giving a one-two!

"I remember an FA Cup semi-final at Villa Park when Peter got the ball on the halfway line, ignored Willie's shouts and whacked it from about 35 yards out into the net. Walking back he said: 'Stevo, are you happy now?'"

Smith continued: "Stevie Heighway was another great winger in the 70s.

"He had pace, ball control and caused defenders loads of problems. There was a derby at Anfield where we were 2-0 down. In the first half they blocked him out but in the second half Steve really tore into them.

"He cut inside and scored at the Kop end and we fought back to win 3-2. Stevie left Everton's players gasping for air that day.

"You need that kind of quality in wide areas and hopefully Downing can provide that for Liverpool over the coming years.

"It certainly looks like Kenny is looking to get back to how we used to play by stretching teams down the wings more."

Smith has been impressed by Liverpool's summer business in the transfer market with Charlie Adam, Jordan Henderson and Alexander Doni all joining Downing in adding depth to the Reds' squad.

The ex-defender believes there could well be more to come too and admits he is excited for what the future may hold for his old team.

"I do think Kenny needs another genuine winger," he said. "Downing will play on the left but what about on the right? Henderson could play there or Dirk Kuyt but he's good in a central role sticking the ball in the back of the net.

"Kenny has boosted the centre of midfield and rightly so because we needed more options in there. Our defence is pretty solid and the strikers are good but the performances of the midfielders last season weren't consistent enough.

"It's been good to see Kenny buying British lads. In the past we've signed a lot of foreign players who have struggled to adapt to the Premier League.

"We've signed some decent players and I'm looking forward to the season starting and going to the games again. The club is starting to grow now. I've got a sneaky feeling I'm going to enjoy watching us play this season and I wouldn't be surprised if we won something.

"The new owners are investing in the squad and seem to appreciate the importance of the fans. With quality in wide areas Liverpool can start picking up trophies again."
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368831#msg1368831 date=1311420128]
And Downing's not "a coon", is he Tommy ?

Marvellous.
[/quote]

haha.. tbf neither was Smicer and he hated him too.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46209.msg1368833#msg1368833 date=1311420152]
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368831#msg1368831 date=1311420128]
And Downing's not "a coon", is he Tommy ?

Marvellous.
[/quote]

haha.. tbf neither was Smicer and he hated him too.
[/quote]

And Emlyn Hughes.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=46209.msg1368823#msg1368823 date=1311419520]
Decent article:

Tommy Smith believes Stewart Downing will add a completely new dimension to Liverpool's attack - and identified him as the stand-out English winger in the Barclays Premier League.

The Anfield Iron is confident the former Aston Villa man can be a huge success on Merseyside and reckons he has all the attributes to get the very best out of Andy Carroll.

Smith said: "It's something I've been going on about for a long time because we've needed wingers desperately.

"I'm delighted we've got Downing. He impressed me when I saw him last season and he was certainly Villa's best player.

"He creates and scores goals, and the fact he's forced his way into the England set-up shows how much he has improved.

"When you look around there aren't many top wingers in the Premier League so they aren't cheap to pick up.

"But if I could have picked any of them to sign for Liverpool it would have been him.

"We paid a lot of money for Andy Carroll but we didn't get to see much of him last season due to injuries. When he did play the one thing he was missing was decent service from the flanks.

"Downing will get to the byline and put balls into the box for Carroll to attack. I'm sure Downing will help to improve Carroll's game."

During Smith's era as a Kop favourite, Liverpool secured countless titles and conquered Europe for the very first time.

He is convinced that the success of the 60s and 70s owed much to the quality of players in the wide areas and is hopeful Downing can go on to emulate some of the greats of yesteryear.

"We always played with a couple of wingers and they played a huge part in the success we enjoyed," he said.

"Everyone talked about our goal scorers but the wingers were very under-rated.

"My mate Cally is up there with the best wingers I've ever seen. He was quick and he would race down the right, get to the byline and whip in a great cross.

"Cally didn't score that many but he would drag teams apart and created so many goals. Look at the '65 FA Cup final, it was his delivery which set up Ian St John for the winner against Leeds.

"In the 60s we would have Cally on the right and Peter on the left. We could attack sides down either side.

"Peter was more of a crowd puller. He loved to take the mickey out of the full-back. He would jump over the ball and the full-back didn't know where to go.

"He was a very good player but sometimes he would try to do too much with the ball. Willie Stevenson used to scream at him for never giving a one-two!

"I remember an FA Cup semi-final at Villa Park when Peter got the ball on the halfway line, ignored Willie's shouts and whacked it from about 35 yards out into the net. Walking back he said: 'Stevo, are you happy now?'"

Smith continued: "Stevie Heighway was another great winger in the 70s.

"He had pace, ball control and caused defenders loads of problems. There was a derby at Anfield where we were 2-0 down. In the first half they blocked him out but in the second half Steve really tore into them.

"He cut inside and scored at the Kop end and we fought back to win 3-2. Stevie left Everton's players gasping for air that day.

"You need that kind of quality in wide areas and hopefully Downing can provide that for Liverpool over the coming years.

"It certainly looks like Kenny is looking to get back to how we used to play by stretching teams down the wings more."

Smith has been impressed by Liverpool's summer business in the transfer market with Charlie Adam, Jordan Henderson and Alexander Doni all joining Downing in adding depth to the Reds' squad.

The ex-defender believes there could well be more to come too and admits he is excited for what the future may hold for his old team.

"I do think Kenny needs another genuine winger," he said. "Downing will play on the left but what about on the right? Henderson could play there or Dirk Kuyt but he's good in a central role sticking the ball in the back of the net.

"Kenny has boosted the centre of midfield and rightly so because we needed more options in there. Our defence is pretty solid and the strikers are good but the performances of the midfielders last season weren't consistent enough.

"It's been good to see Kenny buying British lads. In the past we've signed a lot of foreign players who have struggled to adapt to the Premier League.

"We've signed some decent players and I'm looking forward to the season starting and going to the games again. The club is starting to grow now. I've got a sneaky feeling I'm going to enjoy watching us play this season and I wouldn't be surprised if we won something.

"The new owners are investing in the squad and seem to appreciate the importance of the fans. With quality in wide areas Liverpool can start picking up trophies again."
[/quote]

Downing is SHAT.
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368859#msg1368859 date=1311422141]
Wonder what he thinks of Glenjo, Ngog, Raheem and Wisdom?
[/quote]

He probably goes through a stress ball a day about it.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368864#msg1368864 date=1311422705]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368859#msg1368859 date=1311422141]
Wonder what he thinks of Glenjo, Ngog, Raheem and Wisdom?
[/quote]

He probably goes through a stress ball a day about it.
[/quote]

Hahaha...sad really, I mean legend and all.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368864#msg1368864 date=1311422705]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368859#msg1368859 date=1311422141]
Wonder what he thinks of Glenjo, Ngog, Raheem and Wisdom?
[/quote]

He probably goes through a stress ball a day about it.
[/quote]

I think it stems more from a cultural problem (his background, the era etc) rather than him actually hating black people.

Or is there evidence that suggests otherwise?
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=46209.msg1368894#msg1368894 date=1311426672]
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368864#msg1368864 date=1311422705]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368859#msg1368859 date=1311422141]
Wonder what he thinks of Glenjo, Ngog, Raheem and Wisdom?
[/quote]

He probably goes through a stress ball a day about it.
[/quote]

I think it stems more from a cultural problem (his background, the era etc) rather than him actually hating black people.

Or is there evidence that suggests otherwise?
[/quote]

Well, what does "We shouldn't be signing coons" suggest to you ?
 
I've known a couple of people to act like they're racist but when asked the right questions they recognise that they aren't really, they just have some half-baked poorly formed intuitions/ideas in that direction.

Ignorant, dangerous, stupid, ridiculous; I agree. But I think it's a bit crude to interpret this as something more militant or at least based on strong feelings of hate. It's probably mostly thoughtless.

Xenophobia is supposed to be instinctive to some degree (to do with the desire to promote your own genes), but with enlightened thinking we overcome it. Sadly, not everybody is able to enlighten themselves about everything.

In fact, often the use of racist words is a display of another form of enlightenment: not being too politically correct (someone constantly checking their words implies they are hiding something) - to say something previously connotated but without any feelings in favour of those connotations is to some degree to reclaim that term as meaningless; harmless etc.

Obviously though, if that is done in the wrrong context it can be very offensive, damaging and dangerous.
 
I never really understood his hatred towards Emlyn Hughes.

"I hated scoring for Liverpool because Hughes would come up and congratulate me. I hated him".

Smith was clearly angry about losing the captaincy: "It was my club. I'd been there a damn sight longer than him. Everything in my life was football, especially Liverpool, so why should I let this two-faced little so-and-so spoil my football life?

Smith added that off the pitch, he deliberately ignored Hughes: Away from football, I did not entertain him, or speak to him off the pitch. Never".

It wasn't just Smith who had a problem with Hughes; according to Chelsea legend Peter Osgood, ‘Everybody hated Emlyn. And in an interview shortly before he died, Osgood relayed a story that that illustrated Smith's true feelings on Hughes:

"I remember this game at Anfield once - Chopper's [Ron ‘Chopper’ Harris] done Emlyn Hughes after 15 minutes and he's gone down squealing. Tommy Smith sprints in from 20 yards away, but he sprints straight past Emlyn, his team-mate, gets to Chopper, hauls him up, and says 'I could get to like you, Harris.' Nobody hated Emlyn more than Smithy."

In another alleged incident, Liverpool were playing Leeds United in the 70s, and Hughes was clattered by Allan Clarke in a goalmouth melee. Smith took one look at Hughes on the deck with blood pouring from his nose and said: ''Maybe that Clarke's not such a bad bloke after all''.

Smith’s public comments about Hughes have always been scathing, but the same cannot be said of Hughes, who paid a glowing tribute to Smith in his autobiography:

“He is the greatest captain I have ever played under. Although I never particularly got along with him as a man, I had nothing but admiration and respect for him as a captain on the pitch. He had powerful qualities of leadership.â€

From: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/04/why-did-club-legends-tommy-smith-and.html

But the straw that broke the camels back was the following statements he made about John Barnes and black people in general:

Smith caused considerable controversy in the late 1980s when he strongly protested Liverpool's signing of black England international winger John Barnes on account of the player's skin colour. Smith allegedly stated that: "I never thought I would see the day when Liverpool would employ niggers, I don't want any niggers playing for Liverpool". Smith also allegedly claimed that: "if my daughter came home with a ****, I'd go stark raving mad" and that "if a coon moved in next door to me, I'd move house. That's not racist, it's just normal". These remarks attracted little publicity until they were included in a biography of Barnes published three years after he joined the club. A Liverpool Echo journalist also once remarked that Smith's after dinner-speeches "make Stan Boardman look politically correct".
From wikipedia

Something a posted a couple of years ago.
Impossible to defend the vile he's been spouting.
 
I saw an interview with Howard Gayle where he said that Phil Thompson, Ian Callaghan and Emlyn Hughes were always tremendously encouraging and supportive to him.

Yeah, what a complete wanker Emlyn was.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=46209.msg1368942#msg1368942 date=1311430297]
Emlyn was guilty of making a huge mistake during his career as well mind.
[/quote]

Uh-oh !

What was it ?

*Look, Kop King, I'm not talking to or about you !*
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368947#msg1368947 date=1311430489]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=46209.msg1368942#msg1368942 date=1311430297]
Emlyn was guilty of making a huge mistake during his career as well mind.
[/quote]

Uh-oh !

What was it ?

*Look, Kop King, I'm not talking to or about you !*
[/quote]

We all know Rafa had some faults, but ffs he's gone now.






He chose to play for england instead of Wales.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=46209.msg1368957#msg1368957 date=1311430896]
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368947#msg1368947 date=1311430489]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=46209.msg1368942#msg1368942 date=1311430297]
Emlyn was guilty of making a huge mistake during his career as well mind.
[/quote]

Uh-oh !

What was it ?

*Look, Kop King, I'm not talking to or about you !*
[/quote]

We all know Rafa had some faults, but ffs he's gone now.






He chose to play for england instead of Wales.
[/quote]

Lol.
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368921#msg1368921 date=1311429058]
I never really understood his hatred towards Emlyn Hughes.

"I hated scoring for Liverpool because Hughes would come up and congratulate me. I hated him".

Smith was clearly angry about losing the captaincy: "It was my club. I'd been there a damn sight longer than him. Everything in my life was football, especially Liverpool, so why should I let this two-faced little so-and-so spoil my football life?

Smith added that off the pitch, he deliberately ignored Hughes: Away from football, I did not entertain him, or speak to him off the pitch. Never".

It wasn't just Smith who had a problem with Hughes; according to Chelsea legend Peter Osgood, ‘Everybody hated Emlyn. And in an interview shortly before he died, Osgood relayed a story that that illustrated Smith's true feelings on Hughes:

"I remember this game at Anfield once - Chopper's [Ron ‘Chopper’ Harris] done Emlyn Hughes after 15 minutes and he's gone down squealing. Tommy Smith sprints in from 20 yards away, but he sprints straight past Emlyn, his team-mate, gets to Chopper, hauls him up, and says 'I could get to like you, Harris.' Nobody hated Emlyn more than Smithy."

In another alleged incident, Liverpool were playing Leeds United in the 70s, and Hughes was clattered by Allan Clarke in a goalmouth melee. Smith took one look at Hughes on the deck with blood pouring from his nose and said: ''Maybe that Clarke's not such a bad bloke after all''.

Smith’s public comments about Hughes have always been scathing, but the same cannot be said of Hughes, who paid a glowing tribute to Smith in his autobiography:

“He is the greatest captain I have ever played under. Although I never particularly got along with him as a man, I had nothing but admiration and respect for him as a captain on the pitch. He had powerful qualities of leadership.â€

From: http://www.liverpool-kop.com/2008/04/why-did-club-legends-tommy-smith-and.html

But the straw that broke the camels back was the following statements he made about John Barnes and black people in general:

Smith caused considerable controversy in the late 1980s when he strongly protested Liverpool's signing of black England international winger John Barnes on account of the player's skin colour. Smith allegedly stated that: "I never thought I would see the day when Liverpool would employ niggers, I don't want any niggers playing for Liverpool". Smith also allegedly claimed that: "if my daughter came home with a ****, I'd go stark raving mad" and that "if a coon moved in next door to me, I'd move house. That's not racist, it's just normal". These remarks attracted little publicity until they were included in a biography of Barnes published three years after he joined the club. A Liverpool Echo journalist also once remarked that Smith's after dinner-speeches "make Stan Boardman look politically correct".
From wikipedia

Something a posted a couple of years ago.
Impossible to defend the vile he's been spouting.
[/quote]

If these reports are true, certainly. I say "if" because (a) even the account above keeps saying "allegedly" and (b) the description of the incident against Chelsea is definitely incomplete - Smith didn't just help Chopper Harris up, he was the one who decked him to start with - so how much else is accurate here?
 
In 1988 Smith caused considerable controversy after making derogatory comments about black people to author Dave Hill while being interviewed in the Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool for a book Hill was writing about black Liverpool F.C player John Barnes.

Smith was uncomplimentary about Howard Gayle, a black former Liverpool player who Smith had been at the club with in the 1970s while the striker was a youth team player, saying that: "Howard suffered from a black man's attitude towards the white man. See, everybody thinks whites have an attitude towards blacks. In reality it's blacks who have a problem with the whites".

Smith later added that in order to gain his respect and friendship, "coloured" people have to learn to "think like the white man" and that he later grew to like Gayle, remarking that "I used to call Howard the 'White Nigger'. Now that is a compliment. It was the only way I could find to describe that I thought he was OK." Smith then went on to comment to Hill that "I'm not prejudiced but if a coon moved in next door, I'd move, like most white people would. If my daughter came home with a nigger, I'd go mad. But I'm only being truthful and normal."

Hill reproduced Smith's comments in his 1989 book Out Of His Skin: The John Barnes Phenomenon. Smith reacted by implying that he intended to sue Hill but he in fact had no grounds to take legal action as [size=14pt]Hill had recorded all of Smith's comments on tape during the interview and had quoted all of his statements accurately while keeping the tape safe in his possession[/size]. Hill's book was widely praised by critics but Smith was heavily condemned for his comments quoted in the book.

Try again Judge....
 
That's a quite a lot of inventive lying by Dave Hill, *if* it isn't true.

But then, you're not averse to the odd "wetback" or "dago" are you, Man Of God Jules ?

Yes.

I went there.
 
Modo - fair enough. All you quoted before was a Wikipedia article. Excuse me if I don't automatically take that as cast-iron truth.

Themn - we had this discussion before. I've heard "wetback" used by others who don't have a racist bone in their body, so I wasn't aware it was derogatory, and frankly I'm still not, as there were just as many who agreed with me as agreed with you in the thread that followed. As for "dago", if I'd used it other than in a joke you might have had some excuse for putting on your Thought Police hat. As it is, given that my own origins are from the Mediterranean, I'm a pretty unlikely candidate to harbour that particular prejudice.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46209.msg1369069#msg1369069 date=1311438616]
Modo - fair enough. All you quoted before was a Wikipedia article. Excuse me if I don't automatically take that as cast-iron truth.

Themn - we had this discussion before. I've heard "wetback" used by others who don't have a racist bone in their body, so I wasn't aware it was derogatory, and frankly I'm still not, as there were just as many who agreed with me as agreed with you in the thread that followed. As for "dago", if I'd used it other than in a joke you might have had some excuse for putting on your Thought Police hat. As it is, given that my own origins are from the Mediterranean, I'm a pretty unlikely candidate to harbour that particular prejudice.
[/quote]

Absolutely right Judge. Wikipedia doesn't really count as a source. Don't think what I mentioned in the latest post about Smith was available when I first posted.
 
So, you still think "wetback" is not a slur ? Ok.

And, yes, your use of the term "dago" was as part (the hook, really) of the punchline to a joke.

That's acceptable to you is it ? Ok.

Good to know.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368903#msg1368903 date=1311427626]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=46209.msg1368894#msg1368894 date=1311426672]
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368864#msg1368864 date=1311422705]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368859#msg1368859 date=1311422141]
Wonder what he thinks of Glenjo, Ngog, Raheem and Wisdom?
[/quote]

He probably goes through a stress ball a day about it.
[/quote]

I think it stems more from a cultural problem (his background, the era etc) rather than him actually hating black people.

Or is there evidence that suggests otherwise?
[/quote]

Well, what does "We shouldn't be signing coons" suggest to you ?
[/quote]

I'd never heard this before. If true, it's very sad. But he may not feel the same way now; that was a long time ago and people's attitudes were different.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=46209.msg1369147#msg1369147 date=1311446771]
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368903#msg1368903 date=1311427626]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=46209.msg1368894#msg1368894 date=1311426672]
[quote author=themn link=topic=46209.msg1368864#msg1368864 date=1311422705]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46209.msg1368859#msg1368859 date=1311422141]
Wonder what he thinks of Glenjo, Ngog, Raheem and Wisdom?
[/quote]

He probably goes through a stress ball a day about it.
[/quote]

I think it stems more from a cultural problem (his background, the era etc) rather than him actually hating black people.

Or is there evidence that suggests otherwise?
[/quote]

Well, what does "We shouldn't be signing coons" suggest to you ?
[/quote]

I'd never heard this before. If true, it's very sad. But he may not feel the same way now; that was a long time ago and people's attitudes were different.
[/quote]

Ok, I hear you, but have you read the quotes that Modo has found ? (they're from Wikipedidia, but still).
 
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