The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[refugee]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48021.msg1451316#msg1451316 date=1325117555]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=48021.msg1451310#msg1451310 date=1325116507]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48021.msg1451279#msg1451279 date=1325111584]
This thread is stupid.
Really stupid.
[/quote]

Of course it is.

We have known racists like John Barnes telling us that the outcry against Suarez is a witch hunt and we have renowned anti racism campaigners like Paul McGrath (the man who once publicly defended Ron Atkinson over the Desailly incident) criticising Glen Johnson for supporting his team-mate.

Then we have other posters telling us how stupid the thread is, then continuing to argue about it in later posts.

And finally we have other posters complicating the matter further by bringing up entirely separate arguments about how overrated the player is (there may be a basis for a debate over that, but should people really be making that point in a "stupid" thread).

If your fed up with the thread stop posting in it. It's quite simple (unlike the thread topic which is clearly more complex)
[/quote]Complicating the matter!
Hahahaha.
Yes how complex this all is.
How difficult it is to READ and also form an opinion AT THE SAME TIME!!!

Heaven forbid a thread have more than one subject matter in it. What would we all do.
[/quote]

Complaining about how shit a thread is and then repeating your own arguments as if they are fact, then adding additional debatable content is not going to make the thread less shit or stop people posting in it.

If your trolling then congrats on work well done otherwise stop being hypocritical.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I don't care about changing anyone else's mind. I just want to know what the fuck gives? I don't get what some people are thinking in order to go from the available information and facts to the position that they have adopted. I imagine it goes like this.

Dantes: Why should Suarez be banned?
Oncy: Because he made a reference to colour
Dantes: But it had no racist connotations...
Oncy: I know that, but
Dantes: What the fuck gives then?
Oncy: But it is a good thing as we need to prevent people in future thinking they can make a reference to colour and get away with it
Dantes: Fuck me. Ok, why is that a good thing?
Oncy: Because it is bad to make a reference to colour of course. Why the fuck would you even question that?
Dantes: Don't fuck with me you cunt. Ok, why is making reference to colour bad?
Oncy: Because it's racist
Dantes: Right, and the part where I told you that in this instance, IT HAD NO RACIST CONNOTATIONS? What the fuck about that part?
Oncy: We still need to send out the message that it is unacceptable to make reference to colour
Dantes: And again, why exactly do we want to send out that message?
Oncy: Because its racist to do that, are you fucking deaf?
Dantes: No. Cunt. So is it a good idea to use an example which had no racist connotations, in order to set an example against racism?
Oncy: This thread is stupid.
Dantes: Fuck me.

 

[Oncy]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=refugee link=topic=48021.msg1451318#msg1451318 date=1325118659]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48021.msg1451316#msg1451316 date=1325117555]
[quote author=refugee link=topic=48021.msg1451310#msg1451310 date=1325116507]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=48021.msg1451279#msg1451279 date=1325111584]
This thread is stupid.
Really stupid.
[/quote]

Of course it is.

We have known racists like John Barnes telling us that the outcry against Suarez is a witch hunt and we have renowned anti racism campaigners like Paul McGrath (the man who once publicly defended Ron Atkinson over the Desailly incident) criticising Glen Johnson for supporting his team-mate.

Then we have other posters telling us how stupid the thread is, then continuing to argue about it in later posts.

And finally we have other posters complicating the matter further by bringing up entirely separate arguments about how overrated the player is (there may be a basis for a debate over that, but should people really be making that point in a "stupid" thread).

If your fed up with the thread stop posting in it. It's quite simple (unlike the thread topic which is clearly more complex)
[/quote]Complicating the matter!
Hahahaha.
Yes how complex this all is.
How difficult it is to READ and also form an opinion AT THE SAME TIME!!!

Heaven forbid a thread have more than one subject matter in it. What would we all do.
[/quote]

Complaining about how shit a thread is and then repeating your own arguments as if they are fact, then adding additional debatable content is not going to make the thread less shit or stop people posting in it.

If your trolling then congrats on work well done otherwise stop being hypocritical.
[/quote]The thread is shit. Am I not permited to believe something is shit and still have an opinion on it.
And I havnt stated anything as fact. Other than that which we already know. I dont believe im making any great assumption in saying 'He said something he wishes he didnt' or 'He has been banned' or any of the other statements of fact i posited.
I offered no real opinion on the subject other than I dont think we will miss him as much as others do.
Or I suppose that I dont care if he gets banned.

I will say one more thing (and then I promise I will move away and spare you my hypocrisy any longer) Molbystwin has it right.
Suarez should have come out straight after the event and said 'I meant totally no offence and I apologise for any caused' and the club had said something akin to that we wouldnt be the laughing stock we now are looking.
Anyways
This thread is shit.

 

[Oncy]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=48021.msg1451320#msg1451320 date=1325119912]
I don't care about changing anyone else's mind. I just want to know what the fuck gives? I don't get what some people are thinking in order to go from the available information and facts to the position that they have adopted. I imagine it goes like this.

Dantes: Why should Suarez be banned?
Oncy: Because he made a reference to colour
Dantes: But it had no racist connotations...
Oncy: I know that, but
Dantes: What the fuck gives then?
Oncy: But it is a good thing as we need to prevent people in future thinking they can make a reference to colour and get away with it
Dantes: Fuck me. Ok, why is that a good thing?
Oncy: Because it is bad to make a reference to colour of course. Why the fuck would you even question that?
Dantes: Don't fuck with me you cunt. Ok, why is making reference to colour bad?
Oncy: Because it's racist
Dantes: Right, and the part where I told you that in this instance, IT HAD NO RACIST CONNOTATIONS? What the fuck about that part?
Oncy: We still need to send out the message that it is unacceptable to make reference to colour
Dantes: And again, why exactly do we want to send out that message?
Oncy: Because its racist to do that, are you fucking deaf?
Dantes: No. Cunt. So is it a good idea to use an example which had no racist connotations, in order to set an example against racism?
Oncy: This thread is stupid.
Dantes: Fuck me.
[/quote]Aye good one. Very funny. You own this thread etc etc.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Thanks. I can be very boring too. If you look at this as a mathematical problem instead....

The FA view reference to colour as being racist. Why? Because in every example from 1-100 the reference to colour, combined with aggression has always been racist.

So they have a rule which states........ reference to colour + aggression = racism

Fair enough. That rule works for every case they have experience of and know of. But what we have here is a case 101 which doesn't follow that rule anymore. It is a new culture, a new experience where...... reference to colour + aggression NOT = racism.

The FA and yourself choose to ignore this new evidence. And continue to apply the same rule. That is bad science. It's bad engineering. When you extrapolate rules beyond the range at which you have data for... accidents happen, reactors explode and people die.

 

[gene hughes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

This thread ROCKS!

*plays little air guitar thing*

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.

 

[doctor_mac]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=48021.msg1451329#msg1451329 date=1325124028]
This thread ROCKS!

*plays little air guitar thing*
[/quote]


*comes in beside Gene head-banging and doing the devils horn fists (or whatever they're fucking called)*

 

[Rosco]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

I've learned that the above is xenophobic even though it represents the common sense position.

Expect the Tony Evans treatment Sheik.

 

[doctor_mac]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

Absolutely. FA- Suarez is not the example against racism you are looking for. (Because he isn't a racist you twats).


It is absolutely clear that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and that Suarez was given a punishment fitted to someone culpable of a racist act, rather than someone using a term that has completely different connotations in his own background. The punishment is ludicrous. The FA have taken a stand, but have picked a target that doesn't fit the crime they wish to punish.

It's like the US and UK attacking Iraq after 9-11. Not really the people guilty of the crimes we wish to exact retribution for, but hey ho, they'll do fucking rightly.

 

[doctor_mac]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1451336#msg1451336 date=1325150219]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

I've learned that the above is xenophobic even though it represents the common sense position.

Expect the Tony Evans treatment Sheik.
[/quote]

Few in the 'Merry band of racists' would disagree with this Rosco. It is the failure of the FA to reflect that there were clearly cultural mitigating factors in their response and to factor this into the punishment that makes this smack of politiquing by the FA- grandstanding, rather than an attempt to deal fairly with the case. What Sheik suggests is perfectly fair.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I agree, Sheikh's solution is spot on. The problem now is it is too late for that. It was too late for that course of action the moment the FA stated what they were charging him with. From then they created their own problem of having to carefully balance lots of lies upon more lies to somehow keep everyone happy. That was not easy as you explained, but it's still their own fucking fault. And now they've fucked up, they must pay.

 

[vantage]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=48021.msg1451338#msg1451338 date=1325150610]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1451336#msg1451336 date=1325150219]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

I've learned that the above is xenophobic even though it represents the common sense position.

Expect the Tony Evans treatment Sheik.
[/quote]

Few in the 'Merry band of racists' would disagree with this Rosco. It is the failure of the FA to reflect that there were clearly cultural mitigating factors in their response and to factor this into the punishment that makes this smack of politiquing by the FA- grandstanding, rather than an attempt to deal fairly with the case. What Sheik suggests is perfectly fair.
[/quote]

Yep. I'd have take my (pointy) hat off to them if they'd done that.

But they didn't because they wanted to set an example.....

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1451336#msg1451336 date=1325150219]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

I've learned that the above is xenophobic even though it represents the common sense position.
[/quote]

Odd - considering that was my position (favoring a ban, 'education for foreign players' etc) and all I got was 'hypocritical' etc etc ... I guess I got the "Tony Evans treatment" from you! 🙂

 

[mark1975]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

But isn't that more or less what they've said in their statement, to then go and throw an eight match ban at him? Hence people's backs up, etc, etc..

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=48021.msg1451373#msg1451373 date=1325154831]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

But isn't that more or less what they've said in their statement, to then go and throw an eight match ban at him? Hence people's backs up, etc, etc..
[/quote] Exactly Mark.

 

[Portly]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

There is an inbuilt weakness in the Football Association. It is an old institution based on amateur football. The well-meaning chaps in blazers are clueless in the face of the £ multi-million professional game. In the past I have felt a bit sorry for them as they continually got into scrapes with their well-meaning but incompetent bumbling. Now Suarez and Liverpool FC have fallen victim to the FA's incompetence which has turned into monstrous injustice, so I don't feel sympathetic to them any more.

As we are going to have to wait a few weeks for the committee's statement, and then go through the appeal process, this case will trundle on for quite a long time. When things are dragged out like that, events can happen in the meantime to throw the whole thing off course. I think there is a possibility that the FA will end up looking like idiots. Not for the first time. 😉

 

[jimmy]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=48021.msg1451324#msg1451324 date=1325121819]
Thanks. I can be very boring too. If you look at this as a mathematical problem instead....

The FA view reference to colour as being racist. Why? Because in every example from 1-100 the reference to colour, combined with aggression has always been racist.

So they have a rule which states........ reference to colour + aggression = racism

Fair enough. That rule works for every case they have experience of and know of. But what we have here is a case 101 which doesn't follow that rule anymore. It is a new culture, a new experience where...... reference to colour + aggression NOT = racism.

The FA and yourself choose to ignore this new evidence. And continue to apply the same rule. That is bad science. It's bad engineering. When you extrapolate rules beyond the range at which you have data for... accidents happen, reactors explode and people die.
[/quote]

So let me see, Dantes. You actually want the FA to think logically?! Please...

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

No, I don't care what the FA see. I only care about what I see, and I want to see this play out like pulp fiction.

[after Dalglish saves Suarez from being raped by Denis Smith]
Dalglish: You okay?
Suarez: Naw man. I'm pretty fuckin' far from okay.
Dalglish: What now?
Suarez: What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' negritos, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass

.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Take a look at the FA's regulations. The appeal process for a misconduct charge

(g) Written Reasons
A request for written reasons in respect of the decision of the Regulatory Commission may
be lodged with the Regulatory Commission, in which case the request must be made at the
time of verbal notification of the decision. If requested, written reasons will be supplied to
parties by 6pm on the third working day following the hearing.

They haven't followed their regulations and stuck to 3 working days. So they have automatically prejudiced our appeal through procedural impropriety. And also the amount shit being slung at our club and suarez, together with the financial ramifications, injury to feelings, loss of earnings, damage to reputation, etc etc etc is all now as a result of them not dealing with this in the stipulated time frame.

So I don't even give a fuck what their reasons are and nor will the judge. They have broken the rules so it's time to pay.

 

[Squiggles]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=48021.msg1451313#msg1451313 date=1325116747]
Basically it's fucking bollocks, because had it been an English player such as Rooney, Beckham or Lampard then fuck all would have been made of it, and the fact that they've tried to downplay Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a black cunt, which is far less ambiguous and leaves virtually nothing to debate just goes to prove that.

It's fucking bollocks and the FA have essentially undermined the whole anti-racism campaign by demonstrating that if you're English and a media darling then you'll be looked after.

Suarez, because of who he is and his previous (and because he's not English) has been hung out to dry.

It's a load of shite
[/quote]

They haven't made a ruling on Terry yet. I'd wait and see what happens before ranting and raving about it.

I cannot see how they can impose a lesser ban on Terry.

 

[Squiggles]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1451336#msg1451336 date=1325150219]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=48021.msg1451333#msg1451333 date=1325149594]
The right course of action would have been for the FA to state that they do not consider Luis to be racist but he used a word that whilst acceptable in his native tongue, it is a word that could cause offence in this country. Education not an excessive punishment.
[/quote]

I've learned that the above is xenophobic even though it represents the common sense position.

Expect the Tony Evans treatment Sheik.
[/quote]

Haha, agree with you both.

But obviously by hidden agenda is to portray myself as more anti-racist than others. That's my priority here.

 

[Portly]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Supposing that Terry is acquitted in the magistrates' court - where the standard of evidence will be stiffer than an FA committee - then the FA will probably say that they can take no action.

Which would be very convenient for them.

 

[doctor_mac]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48021.msg1451414#msg1451414 date=1325162440]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=48021.msg1451313#msg1451313 date=1325116747]
Basically it's fucking bollocks, because had it been an English player such as Rooney, Beckham or Lampard then fuck all would have been made of it, and the fact that they've tried to downplay Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a black cunt, which is far less ambiguous and leaves virtually nothing to debate just goes to prove that.

It's fucking bollocks and the FA have essentially undermined the whole anti-racism campaign by demonstrating that if you're English and a media darling then you'll be looked after.

Suarez, because of who he is and his previous (and because he's not English) has been hung out to dry.

It's a load of shite
[/quote]

They haven't made a ruling on Terry yet. I'd wait and see what happens before ranting and raving about it.

I cannot see how they can impose a lesser ban on Terry.
[/quote]

Shouldn't he, in fact, receive a greater ban, since he has no mitigating circumstances?

 

[jimmy]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Portly link=topic=48021.msg1451417#msg1451417 date=1325162607]
Supposing that Terry is acquitted in the magistrates' court - where the standard of evidence will be stiffer than an FA committee - then the FA will probably say that they can take no action.

Which would be very convenient for them.
[/quote]

In this case, should we not take the Suarez case to that same magistrates' court?

 

[Portly]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=jimmy link=topic=48021.msg1451437#msg1451437 date=1325164697]
In this case, should we not take the Suarez case to that same magistrates' court?
[/quote]

We can't because a case has to be brought by the police. Merseyside Police say that they can take no action because they did not receive a complaint from a member of the public.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Portly link=topic=48021.msg1451438#msg1451438 date=1325164953]
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=48021.msg1451437#msg1451437 date=1325164697]
In this case, should we not take the Suarez case to that same magistrates' court?
[/quote]

We can't because a case has to be brought by the police. Merseyside Police say that they can take no action because they did not receive a complaint from a member of the public.
[/quote]

The magistrates court is for kids who steal a bar of chocolate from co-op. This is a tad more serious. The FA are big boys, they're a limited company. So they can go to the big boys court and defend themselves against charges of defamation. Looking at their accounts they raked in a tidy £11m net profit last year, and have well over five times that stashed away in the bank. So they have the ability to pay.

 

[Portly]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=48021.msg1451459#msg1451459 date=1325167037]
The magistrates court is for kids who steal a bar of chocolate from co-op. [/quote]
Yes but that's where Terry is going and the maximum penalty is a fine less than he would spend on a night out. The FA's response to alleged racial abuse is far more draconian than the law of the land.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Portly link=topic=48021.msg1451464#msg1451464 date=1325167409]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=48021.msg1451459#msg1451459 date=1325167037]
The magistrates court is for kids who steal a bar of chocolate from co-op. [/quote]
Yes but that's where Terry is going and the maximum penalty is a fine less than he would spend on a night out. The FA's response to alleged racial abuse is far more draconian than the law of the land.
[/quote]

And I am fine with that. It will make the FA look even more ridiculous when they are unable to do anything to him. Especially when we point that out in our defamation claim. They will have completely perverted the meaning of their own rules so as to punish Suarez, while at the same time pretending to be blissfully unaware of the underlying spirit behind those rules when it came to Evra and Terry. Real nice.

In a proper court they understand that rules are there for a specific purpose which needs to be fulfilled. In this case the rules are to prevent racism. So whatever way you look at it, the FA have perverted those rules to punish someone who was not racist, and then due to some random technicality/convenience have been unable to punish two quite clear racist incidents from Evra and Terry. They're a bunch of clowns. And their comical actions have caused injury to people with the capability of hiring expensive lawyers.

 

[singlerider]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48021.msg1451414#msg1451414 date=1325162440]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=48021.msg1451313#msg1451313 date=1325116747]
Basically it's fucking bollocks, because had it been an English player such as Rooney, Beckham or Lampard then fuck all would have been made of it, and the fact that they've tried to downplay Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a black cunt, which is far less ambiguous and leaves virtually nothing to debate just goes to prove that.

It's fucking bollocks and the FA have essentially undermined the whole anti-racism campaign by demonstrating that if you're English and a media darling then you'll be looked after.

Suarez, because of who he is and his previous (and because he's not English) has been hung out to dry.

It's a load of shite
[/quote]

They haven't made a ruling on Terry yet. I'd wait and see what happens before ranting and raving about it.

I cannot see how they can impose a lesser ban on Terry.
[/quote]

You would think so, and yet they've already revealed their hand purely through the quotes that have come out about it - the guy from Kick It Out lashing Suarez and yet saying he was disappointed about the fuss made over Terry.

If they do hit Terry with an equal ban (which I'm doubtful of, and which if anything should be worse) then it'll be because they know they've set a precedent they cannot go back on, but the very fact that Terry has been publicly defended whereas Suarez has been publicly vilified makes an utter mockery of the entire process.

Perhaps it may have been remotely understandable had Terry been an upstanding clean cut kind of guy, because then it's 'nice guy Terry' vs 'ear chewing, handballing Suarez' - but he's not even that, he's a wife-fucking twat that has been caught on camera calling someone a black cunt, and yet somehow the club should be ashamed of coming out in support of Suarez when there have been people lining up to come out in support of "I've known you a long time, you're not a racist, are you John?" Terry.

Like I said - it's fucking bollocks