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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=Dahuge link=topic=47188.msg1448627#msg1448627 date=1324459820]
Evra insulted him in spanish in a derogatory fashion - ban, no question
Suarez called him negro - ban, no question.
Just be cause Evra abused you first doesn't negate the fact it is still wrong to abuse someone.
Both should get a 3 game ban with a couple suspended.
[/quote]

If that is true ie justice applied equally, I will accept that but it is not. Evra has gone scot free.
 
[quote author=Dahuge link=topic=47188.msg1448627#msg1448627 date=1324459820]
Evra insulted him in spanish in a derogatory fashion - ban, no question
Suarez called him negro - ban, no question.
Just be cause Evra abused you first doesn't negate the fact it is still wrong to abuse someone.
Both should get a 3 game ban with a couple suspended.
[/quote]

Evra insulted him in Spanish in a derogatory fashion - booking at most. Suarez called him something which doesn't have the same meaning in his native language as it does in English, a language and culture to which Suarez is not yet accustomed - booking at most. A ban would be OTT in either case. The fact that it's been applied (a) excessively and (b) selectively to our player simply adds insult to injury.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume away though
[/quote]

Anyone willing to look at this objectively saw this coming. Forget about Evra, John Terry and everything else. If you own up to calling a black man in the UK a negro there's only ever going to be one likely outcome.
[/quote]

I won't forget about Evra because he's allegedly used some form of insult himself which,according to the club statement, he's admitted to. Using your admittance logic he thus should get charged and banned
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448626#msg1448626 date=1324459763]
Not at issue. The question is, as it has always been, whether Suarez could have been expected to know that - and if, as many of us maintain, the answer is "no", whether punishing an inadvertent breach of that cultural given (because that's what it is, not a legal requirement) is just.
[/quote]


Ignorance is no excuse etc...


I think 8 matches is way too harsh, but I agree with Ross that of course he was going to get punished
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448632#msg1448632 date=1324460140]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume away though
[/quote]

Anyone willing to look at this objectively saw this coming. Forget about Evra, John Terry and everything else. If you own up to calling a black man in the UK a negro there's only ever going to be one likely outcome.
[/quote]

I won't forget about Evra because he's allegedly used some form of insult himself which,according to the club statement, he's admitted to. Using your admitrance logic he thus should get charged and banned
[/quote]

Yes he should, but given people are trying to argue that Evra's complaint shouldn't be seen as genuine because he didn't make it immediately on the pitch how do you reconcile that with only raising this complaint 2 months later ?

It just looks like petty schoolground stuff.
 
I don't accept the "ignorance is no excuse" argument. It applies to the law, whose standards the FA have chosen to ignore, or there's no way Suarez could have been found guilty.
 
How on earth did NO ONE hear this when supposedly it was said here (supposedly)? I would love to see exactly what the FA has (Was 'negrito'/'negro' used constantly as Evra/Fergusion alleged? Why has Evra's abuse gone unnoticed by the FA? Why did no one hear what was said? Surely De Gea, Kuyt etc would be honest - especially if this was done repeatedly?) ...

evra_2090496b.jpg
 
Its all speculation till the FA disclose the reasoning behind the disciplinary action.

In all fairness even if it were an accident of sorts, ths FA's hand is forced , they cant have racists play under their jurisdiction.

At the same time this is indicative of the way football (and the world in general) is going; no im not saying racism is okay but christ people need to man up a bit - to an extent i agreed with Blatters comments on the matter, people will always get riled in competitive sports - apologise at fulltime , shake hands and sort your differences out.

Football needs safeguards such as this to prevent racism and other negatives ruining the game but at the same time it needs a good dose of common sense
 
"Reading's John Mackie has formally admitted to the Football Association he made racist comments following a game against Sheffield United in December." 3 match ban. Mmm consistency...
 
Footy365's take:

Luis Suarez has not found the net as frequently in England as he did in the Netherlands, but nobody can credibly doubt his ability. If the written judgment from the FA convincingly adds racism to the biting incident that left him kicking his heels at Ajax a year ago, then nobody will credibly be able to defend his current character. Liverpool may not have yet given up on that, but the FA have undoubtedly taken a firm stand on an issue from which UEFA and FIFA so regularly duck away.

The punishments handed down to national associations for racism by supporters and the defence of Luis Aragones after the then Spain coach talked about Thierry Henry in racially derogatory terms are reminders that the authorities combat prejudice with banners and words rather than action. Being fined £40,000 will trouble Suarez far less than the eight-game ban, but is still far in excess of the punishments levied on national associations (unless they breach rules on sponsorship deals).

Questions remain about how the FA handle their own, however. Bulgaria were rightly reported to UEFA and punished for the monkey chants aimed principally at Ashley Young in Sofia in September, yet the anti-gypsy chants by England supporters were not the subject of sanction. Second, should a high-profile charge of racism against an England player pass across the FA's desk - one complete with video evidence, say - then some will wish to compare and contrast the governing body's actions. Third, while the life of the out rugby player Gareth Thomas is to be made into a film, football's homophobia remains largely unchecked.

Leaving such concerns to one side, the sentence facing Suarez is what one could hope for. A purposeful precedent has been set, one that makes plain the unacceptability of racial abuse on the pitch. In 2003 John Mackie of Reading was banned for three games with five suspended after admitting racially abusing Sheffield United's Carl Asaba, but the story did not exactly dominate the headlines. You cannot legislate away prejudice but you can send the right message. The Suarez case is set to be a landmark.

That is to assume that the conviction stands. Liverpool's statement was forthright in its surprise: 'We find it extraordinary that Luis can be found guilty on the word of Patrice Evra alone when no one else on the field of play - including Evra's own Manchester United team-mates and all the match officials - heard the alleged conversation between the two players in a crowded Kop goalmouth while a corner kick was about to be taken.'

Earlier in the statement, though, Liverpool said: 'We will study the detailed reasons of the commission once they become available.' This may be crucial. The most tantalising nugget in the weeks of build-up was Suarez's claim in the Uruguayan media that he "called him [Evra] something his team-mates at Manchester call him". Is this were the case then why wouldn't the Liverpool player state plainly what exactly that was, so we could start to make a judgment?

Perhaps the answer is that he had already been advised that the nuances of South American Spanish might be lost on the English public. Perhaps there was little significant divergence between Suarez's story and Evra's - whatever the supposed potential benevolence of the term, if he said it ten times then the intent would be clear. If the full verdict and reasoning are made available - and it surely must be - then we will all be able to judge the credibility of Liverpool's defence of their player. We will also be able to judge Evra a little, too.

Reports suggest that the Manchester United defender said: "Don't touch me, you South American," immediately before Suarez's remarks, clearly talking of his opponent's origins in pejorative terms. The history of enslavement and oppression makes the use of terms of abuse of black people that much more reprehensible, but if this is Evra's evidence then he will not come out of the story too well, either.

That will not, whatever Liverpool think, be enough to absolve Suarez if the court of public opinion finds against him on the basis of the evidence; there remains the possibility, though, that if the evidence is seen to be wanting then the case could yet wind up in a court of law.

Kenny Dalglish has been asking for a quick resolution to this affair for a couple of months; now whether it drags on is partly in his hands. What one can say right now is that the Liverpool manager needs to be telling his player that the courting of controversy that has surrounded his career has to end if a flawed footballer is to fulfil his potential. A regrettable episode is not yet over; the triviality of the gesture at Fulham remains; but whatever the final outcomes, and even if he remains convinced he has been the victim of an injustice, these must be the last times Suarez makes headlines for the wrong reasons.

Philip Cornwall
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448636#msg1448636 date=1324460358]
I don't accept the "ignorance is no excuse" argument. It applies to the law, whose standards the FA have chosen to ignore, or there's no way Suarez could have been found guilty.
[/quote]


What applies to the law?
 
HC - yes, it does, and it got it from Luis. Of course he heard what Evra called him, but he chose not to report it, and this is the thanks he gets. I guess it shows we have to get down and dirty like Ferguson now if we want to level out the playing-field.

The more I think about that cnut Ferguson, the more I despise him and what he's done to football.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448644#msg1448644 date=1324460778]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448636#msg1448636 date=1324460358]
I don't accept the "ignorance is no excuse" argument. It applies to the law, whose standards the FA have chosen to ignore, or there's no way Suarez could have been found guilty.
[/quote]


What applies to the law?
[/quote]

The full quote is "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". Either apply its standards or not, but don't pick and choose.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448635#msg1448635 date=1324460336]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448632#msg1448632 date=1324460140]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448635#msg1448635 date=1324460336]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448632#msg1448632 date=1324460140]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume away though
[/quote]

Anyone willing to look at this objectively saw this coming. Forget about Evra, John Terry and everything else. If you own up to calling a black man in the UK a negro there's only ever going to be one likely outcome.
[/quote]

I won't forget about Evra because he's allegedly used some form of insult himself which,according to the club statement, he's admitted to. Using your admitrance logic he thus should get charged and banned
[/quote]

Yes he should, but given people are trying to argue that Evra's complaint shouldn't be seen as genuine because he didn't make it immediately on the pitch how do you reconcile that with only raising this complaint 2 months later ?

It just looks like petty schoolground stuff.
[/quote] he should, but given people are trying to argue that Evra's complaint shouldn't be seen as genuine because he didn't make it immediately on the pitch how do you reconcile that with only raising this complaint 2 months later ?

It just looks like petty schoolground stuff.
[/quote]

Not really, if it first came out during the cross examinations. Suarez has said he didn't hear it don't forget. As for petty playground stuff, well Evra has opened up a massive can of worms by complaining about behaviour I.e. Winding players up, that goes on in every match in every sport whether the race card was played or not. Anyway, I guess there's people on here who'll no longer support Suarez but I will be. He may be s bit of a cheating cunt but I simply do not believe he's racist.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448647#msg1448647 date=1324460961]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448644#msg1448644 date=1324460778]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448636#msg1448636 date=1324460358]
I don't accept the "ignorance is no excuse" argument. It applies to the law, whose standards the FA have chosen to ignore, or there's no way Suarez could have been found guilty.
[/quote]


What applies to the law?
[/quote]

The full quote is "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". Either apply its standards or not, but don't pick and choose.
[/quote]

You're being extremely naive
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448646#msg1448646 date=1324460855]
The more I think about that cnut Ferguson, the more I despise him and what he's done to football.
[/quote]

I find it a bit irritating that all the decent Liverpool supporters on this forum, who have been indulging in complicated arguments about whether or not Suarez is guilty as charged, are actually dancing to Ferguson's tune.
 
i dont think i said whatever you think i did, JJ..

i hope we forget Evras comments- As a club lets rise above it yeah - le.ts not get involved in a game of tit for tat.

id like a typically jazzy kenny press conference reaffirming our stance before finally putting a lid on it. If we do proceed , legally, id like it to be done behind closed doors, not out in the streets.
 
Ross, you're being extremely cynical. Sometimes one just has to stand up for principles.

HC - you referred to common sense. I agree with that. I also agree that if we take this further (and I'm adamant we should) it should be done low-key.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448652#msg1448652 date=1324461175]
Ross, you're being extremely cynical. Sometimes one just has to stand up for principles.

HC - you referred to common sense. I agree with that. I also agree that if we take this further (and I'm adamant we should) it should be done low-key.
[/quote]

I won't stand up for the right to call a black man a negro.

Sorry.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume away though
[/quote]

Anyone willing to look at this objectively saw this coming. Forget about Evra, John Terry and everything else. If you own up to calling a black man in the UK a negro there's only ever going to be one likely outcome.
[/quote]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
 
I've gone over the wording of the rules again and again, and my view remains that it's an offense of strict liability, no? It's no point pleading ignorance of cultural sensitivities or lack of racist intent if strict liability applies. Intent is simply not a factor, the fact of the physical act itself is sufficient to support a finding of guilt. If reports are to be believed, then Suarez has used a variant of the word "negro", ergo, charge was always likely to be proved.

Of course, i'm assuming the FA has applied the common law.

And it sees to me the charge alleges that Suarez has "used" an insulting word which refers to skin colour, that's hardly the same as pronouncing him as racist is it?
 
[quote author=i_rushie link=topic=47188.msg1448658#msg1448658 date=1324461460]
I've gone over the wording of the rules again and again, and my view remains that it's an offense of strict liability, no? It's no point pleading ignorance of cultural sensitivities or lack of racist intent if strict liability applies. Intent is simply not a factor, the fact of the physical act itself is sufficient to support a finding of guilt. If reports are to be believed, then Suarez has used a variant of the word "negro", ergo, charge was always likely to be proved.

Of course, i'm assuming the FA has applied the common law.

And it sees to me the charge alleges that Suarez has "used" an insulting word which refers to skin colour, that's hardly the same as pronouncing him as racist is it?
[/quote]

I agree fully.

Why most people can't see how simple this is, is another matter.
 
I agree with JJ wholeheartedly and based on LFC's statement and also what we know so far, if we do not take it further, LFC and its supporters are the biggest suck up to Fergie club ever! Unless the 'judgement' statement by the panel of 3 reveals some devastating incontrovertible evidences, which I doubt, because if they have they would have handed the case over to the police just like Terry's case! (wow I am learning English law & justice here!)
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448646#msg1448646 date=1324460855]
HC - yes, it does, and it got it from Luis. Of course he heard what Evra called him, but he chose not to report it, and this is the thanks he gets. I guess it shows we have to get down and dirty like Ferguson now if we want to level out the playing-field.

The more I think about that cnut Ferguson, the more I despise him and what he's done to football.
[/quote]

JJ the club statement says that Luis said he didnt hear Evra's insult. Hence maybe the reason that might explain to Ross the reason why it wasnt brought up until now. But maybe thats too simple.
 
To be honest JJ , as an individual his reputation is in tatters this morning; if he is innocent, i feel massively sad for him

I hope the club clear it up or suarez finds justic in some shape. i hope to fuck i dont hear any of our boys crying over insults in the future, i find it embarrissing for both the individual and the establishment

For me, the best way liverpool football club and suarez can respond to the outcome is by tearing wigan a new one tonight.
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

In English, yes it is. There's no two ways about that.

In Spanish, depends on context.
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume away though
[/quote]

Anyone willing to look at this objectively saw this coming. Forget about Evra, John Terry and everything else. If you own up to calling a black man in the UK a negro there's only ever going to be one likely outcome.
[/quote]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

Of course you wouldn't.

But the question isn't whether it's racist or not, it's whether it refers to Evra's skin colour. Which is beyond doubt.
 
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