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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

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[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448646#msg1448646 date=1324460855]
HC - yes, it does, and it got it from Luis. Of course he heard what Evra called him, but he chose not to report it, and this is the thanks he gets. I guess it shows we have to get down and dirty like Ferguson now if we want to level out the playing-field.

The more I think about that cnut Ferguson, the more I despise him and what he's done to football.
[/quote]didn't the LFC statement say that Evra admitted at the hearing to making the comments but Suarez had not heard them?
 
I find it sad but predictable.

I am angry at Suarez for doing it, I do not buy his defence, it is true that words can have different meanings in different cultures but it depends on the context and he knows that also, he did racially abuse a player even if he considered it to be not such a big deal. I do not think he is a racist at all, i just think he was trying to wind Evra up and chose the very worst way of doing so.

I am also angry at Suarez for actually deigning to comment on it when back home and in doing so presenting a defence to a crime for which there was no evidence of even existing up to that point.... he should have kept his mouth shut twice IMO. He most certainly shot himself in the foot.

I am highly dissapointed with the club, with its statements at the time and yesterday they are unhelpful and paint the club in a bad light, calling for Evra to be punished when he was the recipient of the abuse and then claiming that he's done it before.... what the fuck are they thinking! The club should pull directly behind the FA and tow the line and issue an apology to Evra. You cannot deflect it in anyway so take the hit and show some pride and do the right thing, it was bang out of order and us justifying it or defending it is shameful. Walking through a storm together does not give you carte blanche to be fuckibng stupid, the club knows the FA will chop Suarez up into little bits if guilty so we should have been far more careful with our own rhetoric, pumping pressure into the system.

All this aside the fact that we have played everything so terribly badly does not however excuse the truly extraordinary judgement from the FA. They have clearly been playing politics with their judgement possibly even international politics and trying to achieve some kind of moral superiority for themselves into the bargain. The ruling is excessive to the point of being vindictive and they are now in the position now where they will have to sanction the England captain harshly or face justifiable accusations of racism themselves.

It is a full on shitfest.

We should not appeal we should apologise and we should move on, we are not gonna stop the FA from being cunts by claiming to be the innocents or indeed the damaged party. The FA had better watch what they do though because if they do not impose a similarly severe sanction on Terry.... well now that would be racism.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=47188.msg1448670#msg1448670 date=1324461904]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448646#msg1448646 date=1324460855]
HC - yes, it does, and it got it from Luis. Of course he heard what Evra called him, but he chose not to report it, and this is the thanks he gets. I guess it shows we have to get down and dirty like Ferguson now if we want to level out the playing-field.

The more I think about that cnut Ferguson, the more I despise him and what he's done to football.
[/quote]didn't the LFC statement say that Evra admitted at the hearing to making the comments but Suarez had not heard them?
[/quote]

Correct.

And if he did hear it and chose not to report it, he's in the wrong too. Ignoring is not the way to combat racism.
 
[quote author=23carragold link=topic=47188.msg1448678#msg1448678 date=1324462158]
I thought the word was 'Negrito' not 'Negro' isn't there a big difference? I honestly have no idea?
[/quote]

I thought it was Negrito too, but the truth is nobody really seems to know the truth, and people are using which ever will suit their case.
 
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47188.msg1448668#msg1448668 date=1324461717]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

In English, yes it is. There's no two ways about that.

In Spanish, depends on context.
[/quote]

Since when is Negro racist in English?

Martin Luther King used the word in his 'I have a dream speech' if you recall?

As far as I know it isn't racist, or is this a new PC thing?

What do you call a Black man now then?

IC3's ? the worlds gone fucking mental .....
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1448679#msg1448679 date=1324462233]
[quote author=23carragold link=topic=47188.msg1448678#msg1448678 date=1324462158]
I thought the word was 'Negrito' not 'Negro' isn't there a big difference? I honestly have no idea?
[/quote]

I thought it was Negrito too, but the truth is nobody really seems to know the truth, and people are using which ever will suit their case.
[/quote]

Before the hearing most reported it was Negrito, after the hearing everyone has reported it as being negro.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448649#msg1448649 date=1324461017]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448647#msg1448647 date=1324460961]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448644#msg1448644 date=1324460778]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448636#msg1448636 date=1324460358]
I don't accept the "ignorance is no excuse" argument. It applies to the law, whose standards the FA have chosen to ignore, or there's no way Suarez could have been found guilty.
[/quote]


What applies to the law?
[/quote]

The full quote is "Ignorance of the law is no excuse". Either apply its standards or not, but don't pick and choose.
[/quote]

You're being extremely naive
[/quote]


And convoluted
 
One man's "convoluted" is another man's "asking for consistency". I respect you fellas' views, but I absolutely do not share them.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448688#msg1448688 date=1324462472]
One man's "convoluted" is another man's "asking for consistency". I respect you fellas' views, but I absolutely do not share them.
[/quote]

you will eventually
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448684#msg1448684 date=1324462338]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1448679#msg1448679 date=1324462233]
[quote author=23carragold link=topic=47188.msg1448678#msg1448678 date=1324462158]
I thought the word was 'Negrito' not 'Negro' isn't there a big difference? I honestly have no idea?
[/quote]

I thought it was Negrito too, but the truth is nobody really seems to know the truth, and people are using which ever will suit their case.
[/quote]

Before the hearing most reported it was Negrito, after the hearing everyone has reported it as being negro.
[/quote]

Yes, it's been reportedly differently. We'll see what it says if/when the official report comes out anyway.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1448682#msg1448682 date=1324462289]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47188.msg1448668#msg1448668 date=1324461717]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

In English, yes it is. There's no two ways about that.

In Spanish, depends on context.
[/quote]

Since when is Negro racist in English?

Martin Luther King used the word in his 'I have a dream speech' if you recall?

As far as I know it isn't racist, or is this a new PC thing?

What do you call a Black man now then?

IC3's ? the worlds gone fucking mental .....
[/quote]



Of course referring to anybody's colour is a racial comment.


It doesn't make you immediately a racist, but it doesn't help.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448688#msg1448688 date=1324462472]
One man's "convoluted" is another man's "asking for consistency". I respect you fellas' views, but I absolutely do not share them.
[/quote]


You wouldn't have this opinion if Hernandez had called Johnson "negro".
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448660#msg1448660 date=1324461543]
[quote author=i_rushie link=topic=47188.msg1448658#msg1448658 date=1324461460]
I've gone over the wording of the rules again and again, and my view remains that it's an offense of strict liability, no? It's no point pleading ignorance of cultural sensitivities or lack of racist intent if strict liability applies. Intent is simply not a factor, the fact of the physical act itself is sufficient to support a finding of guilt. If reports are to be believed, then Suarez has used a variant of the word "negro", ergo, charge was always likely to be proved.

Of course, i'm assuming the FA has applied the common law.

And it sees to me the charge alleges that Suarez has "used" an insulting word which refers to skin colour, that's hardly the same as pronouncing him as racist is it?
[/quote]

I agree fully.

Why most people can't see how simple this is, is another matter.
[/quote]


And on another note, the FA's decision is entirely consistent with Suarez's "defence" that there was NO discriminatory intent. The real issue is that Suarez's "defence" was misguided. In a case that was always going to turn on the evidence, Suarez should have kept his gobby mouth shut! Once he made remarks to the Uruguayan media though, he was never going to get over the hurdle of proving reasonable mistake of fact - which is the only defence to an offence of strict liability.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448691#msg1448691 date=1324462540]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1448682#msg1448682 date=1324462289]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47188.msg1448668#msg1448668 date=1324461717]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

In English, yes it is. There's no two ways about that.

In Spanish, depends on context.
[/quote]

Since when is Negro racist in English?

Martin Luther King used the word in his 'I have a dream speech' if you recall?

As far as I know it isn't racist, or is this a new PC thing?

What do you call a Black man now then?

IC3's ? the worlds gone fucking mental .....
[/quote]



Of course referring to anybody's colour is a racial comment.


It doesn't make you immediately a racist, but it doesn't help.
[/quote]

Is Caucasian racist?
 
Asbo, you've ignored this point repeatedly already in the thread, I'm just going to copy and paste the FA's decision. Read it:

"An independent regulatory commission has found a charge of misconduct against Luis Suárez proven, and have issued a suspension for a period of eight matches as well as fining him £40,000, pending appeal. The decision is as follows:

• Mr Suárez used insulting words towards Mr Evra during the match contrary to FA Rule E3(1);

• The insulting words used by Mr Suárez included a reference to Mr Evra's colour;

• Mr Suárez shall be warned as to his future conduct, be suspended for eight matches covering all first-team competitive matches and fined the sum of £40,000;

• The [penalty] is suspended pending the outcome of any appeal lodged by Mr Suárez.

"Mr Suárez has the right to appeal. An appeal must be lodged within 14 days of the date of the written reasons for the decision. The penalty is suspended until after the outcome of any appeal, or the time for appealing expires, or should Mr Suárez decide not to appeal."
Click to expand...

Note the lack of the word racist.
 
It does seem weird that the FA are banning saying that the charge isn't one of racism and Er are banning him for 8 games, people have mentioned other cases of violent conduct that have received far less.


Erm Asbo, 'negro' is very much considered a racist term, language evolves and contexts change, I wouldn't go round using that word I I were you.
 
Didn't get much sleep last night holding a candle light vigil for Suarez. Only kidding, my daughter was ill and so I spent the wee hours watching sky sports news while she got hopped up on calpol.

It's just my opinion but if you charge Suarez for racism and Evra (potentially) for xenophobia, then the FA has to take action against Marriner because to find Suarez guilty based on Evra's accusations all but says that Marriner knew what was going on but chose not to do anything about it. Which of course they won't, because it would implicate them in allowing a a manager to dictate to a referee what goes in the match report.

The FA has set a precedent with Rooney and is setting one with Suarez, not based on a need to get tough on racism, but out of pure spite, ie, we look after our own.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1448682#msg1448682 date=1324462289]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=47188.msg1448668#msg1448668 date=1324461717]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

In English, yes it is. There's no two ways about that.

In Spanish, depends on context.
[/quote]

Since when is Negro racist in English?

Martin Luther King used the word in his 'I have a dream speech' if you recall?

As far as I know it isn't racist, or is this a new PC thing?

What do you call a Black man now then?

IC3's ? the worlds gone fucking mental .....
[/quote]

I suppose you just don't refer to his race Asbo. And I think that's fair enough. It might be something that is done in south America but it isn't allowed here. I get that.


However, what is clearly wrong is that some proper racist could be doing a monkey chant at a black man and get an 8 match ban. Someone could clearly and knowingly use much more heinous language and get the same punishment. The FA have described the punishment to Suarez as 'unprecedented'. It is the toughest punishment they have imposed. And yet this morning top members of the FA have said that they don't believe that Suarez is a racist, and that there were 'cultural factors' in this case. So why when the FA themselves have admitted mitigating cultural factors do they impose the stiffest sanction they have ever handed out?

The punishment was aimed at sending a message out to the world, rather than dealing proportionately with the case in hand.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448669#msg1448669 date=1324461817]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1448657#msg1448657 date=1324461433]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448619#msg1448619 date=1324459453]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1448574#msg1448574 date=1324452868]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448526#msg1448526 date=1324430419]
FYI - Evra's statement is evidence. That alone is not enough evidence to prove anything. The QC involved knows this, so I'm willing to bet there's more to it than we're letting on.


[/quote]

We'll have to see what happens with the clubs course of action going forwards. Assume away though
[/quote]

Anyone willing to look at this objectively saw this coming. Forget about Evra, John Terry and everything else. If you own up to calling a black man in the UK a negro there's only ever going to be one likely outcome.
[/quote]

This is a serious question.

Is the word "negro" a racist word. If you call a person with black skin a negro are you being racist or factually correct.

Personally I wouldnt do it, but Im from Ireland not South America.
[/quote]

Of course you wouldn't.

But the question isn't whether it's racist or not, it's whether it refers to Evra's skin colour. Which is beyond doubt.
[/quote]

But why is the question not whether its racist or not? Wasnt he found guilty of racial abuse towards Evra?
 
Yes, the FA has said it wasn't racism, they've also said he isn't a racist, so has Evra, and so has the club. And I have no problem with the charge levelled given the wording they've used(although I do think the ban is excessive given the above).

The problem is that everyone thinks he is a racist, and that's what we need to clear up.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448693#msg1448693 date=1324462620]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448688#msg1448688 date=1324462472]
One man's "convoluted" is another man's "asking for consistency". I respect you fellas' views, but I absolutely do not share them.
[/quote]


You wouldn't have this opinion if Hernandez had called Johnson "negro".
[/quote]

Look at how the two clubs have handled this. Had that happened it would have been left on the pitch where it belonged.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448707#msg1448707 date=1324462955]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448693#msg1448693 date=1324462620]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448688#msg1448688 date=1324462472]
One man's "convoluted" is another man's "asking for consistency". I respect you fellas' views, but I absolutely do not share them.
[/quote]


You wouldn't have this opinion if Hernandez had called Johnson "negro".
[/quote]


Look at how the two clubs have handled this. Had that happened it would have been left on the pitch where it belonged.
[/quote]

I didn't realise Sepp Blatter posted on here.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448707#msg1448707 date=1324462955]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=47188.msg1448693#msg1448693 date=1324462620]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1448688#msg1448688 date=1324462472]
One man's "convoluted" is another man's "asking for consistency". I respect you fellas' views, but I absolutely do not share them.
[/quote]


You wouldn't have this opinion if Hernandez had called Johnson "negro".
[/quote]

Look at how the two clubs have handled this. Had that happened it would have been left on the pitch where it belonged.
[/quote]


We agree about this.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1448699#msg1448699 date=1324462790]


• The insulting words used by Mr Suárez included a reference to Mr Evra's colour;
[/quote]

Hmm

Isn't this just semantics, if you refer to someone's colour in a derogatory way, are you not being racist? How is that any different to what Terry said.

I wouldn't be surprised if the last few days of delay were actually down to or legal team battling to make sure the word 'racist' wasn't used. Fat good it's done anyway
 
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