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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454117#msg1454117 date=1325514641]
No. But im happy with what I deem to be an acceptable level and what is OTT and goes from gamesmanship (which to clarify i dont like and wish none of our players did) into cheating.
Steven Gerrard has neer made me feel the way Suarez did when i wrote those posts above.
[/quote]

That's fine, as long as you accept there is an inherent hypocrisy that basically says "when he does it I don't mind because I like him" - because otherwise there's a massive contradiction between what you said before and what you're saying here
 
Sorry lads but Suarez is a scumbag. Unike Oncy though I don't mind scumbags playing for Liverpool as long as it's the right kind of scumbag. I'd sell Suarez now though, even if we decide to fight the verdict, there's more to be lost from keeping him than selling. The racism thing isn't going to go away.
 
No "scumbag" has the kind of career Suarez had at a club like Ajax. Nor are we going to agree about the "more to be lost" thing - in the short term, maybe, but in the long term we'll have allowed one of our players to be hounded out of LFC by what is AT BEST a flawed process and at worst an outright witchhunt.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454129#msg1454129 date=1325516310]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1454128#msg1454128 date=1325516181]
Nobody's saying he never cheats. That's a rather pathetic straw man you keep trying to use to shore up your case. And if this is "about your club" pure and simple, perhaps you'd care to answer the questions others have tried to put to you about Steven Gerrard's actions - at times - on the pitch.
[/quote]I already did. You arent paying attention.
[/quote]

Looks like no body will ever meets up to your expectations being OUR club player Herr Oncy.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=47188.msg1454133#msg1454133 date=1325516746]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454117#msg1454117 date=1325514641]
No. But im happy with what I deem to be an acceptable level and what is OTT and goes from gamesmanship (which to clarify i dont like and wish none of our players did) into cheating.
Steven Gerrard has neer made me feel the way Suarez did when i wrote those posts above.
[/quote]

That's fine, as long as you accept there is an inherent hypocrisy that basically says "when he does it I don't mind because I like him" - because otherwise there's a massive contradiction between what you said before and what you're saying here
[/quote]Maybe so. I see it as different given the levels we are talking about. Would I rather Gerrard never dived? of course, is it the same (given that I could count on one hand the number of out and out dives ive seen gerrard make) as Suarez who dives consistently during every game? I dont think so.
Have you ever seen Gerrard attempt to get a player booked or sent off? I dont think I have.
Have you ever seen Gerrard roll around and feign injury? I dont think I have.
Have you ever seen Gerrard still on the ground when replays show no contact? I dont think I have.

I wish Gerrard and every other player at liverpool would be clean as a whistle but thats just a fantasy I know. Personally I think there is a chasm between that and Suarez.
If thats hypocracy then fair enough. Like I said i dont reaaaaally give all that much of a fuck.
If we keep him and he does a great job then great, I wont like him (unless he cuts that shit out) but im sure that wont stop him or you sleeping at night.
 
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=47188.msg1454138#msg1454138 date=1325517386]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454129#msg1454129 date=1325516310]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1454128#msg1454128 date=1325516181]
Nobody's saying he never cheats. That's a rather pathetic straw man you keep trying to use to shore up your case. And if this is "about your club" pure and simple, perhaps you'd care to answer the questions others have tried to put to you about Steven Gerrard's actions - at times - on the pitch.
[/quote]I already did. You arent paying attention.
[/quote]

Looks like no body will ever meets up to your expectations being OUR club player Herr Oncy.
[/quote]Oh i dunno about that. I dont recall Hansen, Hyppia, Carragher, Souness, Beardsley or about a million other players being massive diving cheats.
Maybe my memory is poor though.
 
Carra's more of an all-in wrestler than a footballer in our box at times. As for Souey, he committed what would otherwise have constituted GBH on more than one occasion. I dare say the occasional triple salchow wasn't outwith his repertoire either.
 
Jules, even Ajax called him a 'streetfighter' when we bought him, which I took as much as a warning as anything else.

He's a dirty, mouthy, divey, bitey, handley, cardy wavey fucker. Very good player though. Up until this whole thing I was glad he played for us.

Now, there would have to be a swift vindication and exoneration of him (which isn't going to happen) or I'd sell. This window would look a bit desparate but next summer we should quietly move him on.

As for the FA, they have indeed cooked this a bit and behaved shoddily in parts, but I think we're better off having a long-term strategy for destroying that particular institution. Every time we've made a move in this particular conflict, we've only succeeded in shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Hansen, Carra & Hypia were defenders. What would they gain by diving in their own box? I am quite sure there were the occasional elbows and.... and if there they were other team players some of us here would have scream blue murder.
 
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=47188.msg1454145#msg1454145 date=1325518056]
Hansen, Carra & Hypia were defenders. What would they gain by diving in their own box? I am quite sure there were the occasional elbows and.... and if there were other team players some of us here would have scream blue murder.
[/quote]Oh sorry. When you said 'our players' I took that to mean 'our players' my mistake.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1454147#msg1454147 date=1325518173]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=47188.msg1454145#msg1454145 date=1325518056]
Hansen, Carra & Hypia were defenders. What would they gain by diving in their own box? I am quite sure there were the occasional elbows and.... and if there they were other team players some of us here would have scream blue murder.
[/quote]Oh sorry. When you said 'our players' I took that to mean 'our players' my mistake.
[/quote]

duh 😵?
 
id sell suarez to be fair, whether its the FA's fault or not he's giving liverpool football club a bad reputation and i dont think john henry will be too keen, mind you i think the club handled this disastrously . Wonder how much say Henry had in the rigid defence of luis. why are the poulsens of football never racists eh?
 
[quote author=Lewy link=topic=47188.msg1454150#msg1454150 date=1325518505]
id sell suarez to be fair, whether its the FA's fault or not he's giving liverpool football club a bad reputation
[/quote]

That would be double unfairness wouldn't it? First he gets comprehensively stitched up by Ferguson/the FA, then we sell him because of the damage to the club's reputation caused by being stitched up. Up with that I will not put.

I am still in the Suarez T-shirt club. ;D
 
Sell Suarez??

No fucking chance... he is our best player by a mile and this will all be tomorrows chip papers soon enough.
 
aye i suppose im being a bit over the top there, im just fed up of our club players and manager being seen as some unholy trinity in everyones eyes, well, everyone thats not a liverpool fan
 
I think we've had our share of cheats and cunts, simply because that is the modern footballer. Torres, Mascher, Garcia have all been guilty of it, as has Stevie on many occasions. It also raises questions about the nature of cheating itself - are there degrees of cheating, or is it a fundamental divide between either playing by the rules or not?

Do we condemn all cheating, or do we say that there is an 'acceptable' level? Danny Agger elbowing Torres in the face was cheating but did anyone on here not love it? Fouling someone cos they got past you and are in a good position is cheating and every bit as cynical as diving yet all players do it and we as fans would be angry with the if they didn't and allowed a goal to be scored. Grabbing opponents shirts is cheating, so by this token Carra is a MASSIVE cheat, but nutters aside who doesn't love Carra?

Lots of players are cunts - like Bellers, he's a total cunt (of comes across that way on the pitch) but he's our cunt. Suarez, I'm sure, is a cunt, but he's our cunt so we forgive his indiscretions on the pitch. Were he a racist, I think ghats something many of us, myself included, could not look past - but being a cunt does not make him a racist and neither does the (incredibly flimsy) evidence put forward to the panel. Basically I think they can't look past him being a cunt and have found him guilty based on that, because there's no real evidence
 
I don't think there is even 1 professional footballer playing the game today who doesn't cheat on the pitch.

Oh and Sami used to try and cheat at least 3 times per game.
 
Haha

Sorry i didn't mean it like that.

It's just that when certain players cheat it gets highlighted all to quickly on a regular basis, yet the simple fact is that every single player cheats.
 
In the 48 hours after Evra’s complaint, any efforts to resolve the situation privately — PFA chairman Gordon Taylor has admitted he wanted to bring all sides together on the weekend the incident took place — was rejected by Liverpool, who by then were seeking a charge against Evra for a false allegation.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/8987529/Liverpool-under-mounting-pressure-to-abandon-plans-to-appeal-against-Luis-Suarezs-eight-match-ban.html
 
James Lawton's take:

Now that the Suarez decision has been explained with a force and a logic that should convince anyone inhabiting a set of values that owe more to decent grown-up behaviour than half-baked tribal loyalty, it can only be hoped that Liverpool Football Club and their iconic manager, Kenny Dalglish, have the wit to stop embarrassing themselves.

This will require a few qualities that have not exactly been flying out of the Anfield woodwork in recent weeks. An intelligent understanding of the world we live in, including the prejudice that stills stalks the streets of our cities with sometimes appalling consequences, would be one starting point. Another is the acceptance that from time to time you need to reflect upon your actions through something more than the prism of self-interest. In this case it would have required Liverpool FC to understand that if Luis Suarez is not a racist – a belief accepted by his accuser, Patrice Evra – the crime he was charged with is the first ugly resort of those who are.

The independent panel, led by a QC and containing an ex-player and manager with a reputation for a hard-nosed understanding of the trade he pursued with notably rugged distinction, was never likely to expose itself to the charge of a serious miscarriage of justice. Certainly, the 115-page account of the hearing, and the basis of their decision, provides more than enough reassurance that this was indeed the case. It also answered, simply but witheringly, the question Dalglish asked – with offensive disingenuousness – around about the time he was approving the wearing of Suarez T-shirts before the match that followed the player's eight-match sentence for racially abusing Evra.

"It would be helpful to everyone," said Dalglish, "if someone gave us guidelines about what you can and cannot say."

The verdict and report of an independent regulatory panel has at least provided half the answer to Daglish's threshing in an apparently unformed moral landscape. You cannot make seven references to the colour of an opponent's skin in a situation which the panel – and any casual TV viewer – inevitably concluded was "acrimonious" and escape the sure-fire belief that you are indulging in racial abuse and provocation. You cannot do what Suarez did – as proved by video evidence and confirmed by linguistic expertise, including a knowledge of the nuances of references to race in the player's native Uruguay – and get away with some implausible argument that you were innocent of the charges against you. Not when you have been found, irrefutably, to have said, without the interruption of any other word, "black, black, black..."

We do not yet know whether Liverpool will go ahead with an appeal after their initially emphatic reaction to the verdict – and risk further punishment of the player, surely a certainty given the ruling that two further offences of this nature could lead to Suarez's permanent banning from English football.

What we should be able to believe is that all of English football, or at least those parts of it which shared Dalglish's confusion about the difference between right and wrong, are now utterly clear about what is unacceptable.

Not the least disturbing aspect of the Suarez affair – and the one that now hangs over the future of Chelsea and England captain John Terry – has been the volume and the nature of much of the reaction. Much of it, you had to conclude, was fuelled by thinking implicit in Dalglish's question. Could someone explain to adult professionals quite how they conform to the rules of the society in which they find themselves? How pathetic that would sound on the lips of the parent of an errant child, one oblivious to the feelings of anyone but itself and armed with the belief that nothing mattered in life but an individual's own instincts on how to behave.

Hopefully, the water that became so muddied will clear somewhat with the detailed report of the proceedings. Charges that Liverpool where somehow victims of a conspiracy worked by the sinister tentacles of Manchester United will maybe finish up where they started – in the rubbish bin of hysterical victimhood.

That one of the most prestigious clubs in English football, which has contributed so much to the idea that a football team might just be the perfect expression of a community's collective pride, should plunge into such a ludicrous reaction was all the more depressing.

But then, who knows, a line might well have been drawn. If Suarez has been given severe punishment, who among those who draw such warmth from the deeds of great Liverpool players like Dalglish could countenance the alternative? We should be quite clear about what this would have entailed. Most of all, it would have been the acceptance that each player in the world's most cosmopolitan football league could bring his own moral compass each time he went out on the field.

It is to the great credit of the Football Association, which recently has not been consistently applauded for the strength of its resolve to put morality before self-interest, that it has insisted that this just cannot be so. Not if English football – which by and large is streets ahead of so many rivals, including those of large swathes of Europe – is to clear up the last remnants of the kind of racial prejudice once commonly experienced by black footballers like Mark Walters and John Barnes.

Luis Suarez has made other marks on English football. He is a player of thrilling skill and invention. He is widely cherished by Liverpool fans, and any others who put a high value on outstanding ability, and this is surely the foundation of his success as long as he stays here. It is something that he and his supporters must place alongside another reality that has been, we can be much more confident now, established beyond reasonable contradiction.

It is that through his actions no one need any longer be confused about the whereabouts of one line which in all decency cannot be crossed.
 
"Established beyond reasonable contradiction" my hairy @rse. He says himself "Hopefully the water that became so muddied will clear somewhat", so even he concedes it hasn't so far.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1454174#msg1454174 date=1325521273]
"Established beyond reasonable contradiction" my hairy @rse. He says himself "Hopefully the water that became so muddied will clear somewhat", so even he concedes it hasn't so far.
[/quote]

Right, but he blames Liverpool for that.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=47188.msg1454120#msg1454120 date=1325515216]
I think the real issue with Suarez is that he is one of our really good players, and if he wasn't, half the people wouldn't defend him.

If it was Christian Poulsen i refuse to believe some of you would give a shit.
[/quote]

If this was Christian Poulsen and it wasn't against a United player would the media or FA give half a shite ?
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1454174#msg1454174 date=1325521273]
"Established beyond reasonable contradiction" my hairy @rse. He says himself "Hopefully the water that became so muddied will clear somewhat", so even he concedes it hasn't so far.
[/quote]

It is clear as mud...
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=47188.msg1454134#msg1454134 date=1325516921]
Sorry lads but Suarez is a scumbag. Unike Oncy though I don't mind scumbags playing for Liverpool as long as it's the right kind of scumbag. I'd sell Suarez now though, even if we decide to fight the verdict, there's more to be lost from keeping him than selling. The racism thing isn't going to go away.
[/quote]

What's to be lost ? The reputation of the club ? And what are you expecting to happen even if it is ? I doubt we will lose fans or money , i doubt players won't sign for us .

And why won't the racism thing go away ? Everything is forgotten in time . Like i said best thing we can do is be successful on the pitch and then everything will be washed clean , that is how the football world works .

I mean it's not as if we're juve or whoever cheated to win the league ....cantona went nuts and united stood by him , loads of players get drugs bans and clubs stand by them if they are good players ...everything is forgotten in football
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=47188.msg1454160#msg1454160 date=1325519385]
I think we've had our share of cheats and cunts, simply because that is the modern footballer. Torres, Mascher, Garcia have all been guilty of it, as has Stevie on many occasions. It also raises questions about the nature of cheating itself - are there degrees of cheating, or is it a fundamental divide between either playing by the rules or not?

Do we condemn all cheating, or do we say that there is an 'acceptable' level? Danny Agger elbowing Torres in the face was cheating but did anyone on here not love it? Fouling someone cos they got past you and are in a good position is cheating and every bit as cynical as diving yet all players do it and we as fans would be angry with the if they didn't and allowed a goal to be scored. Grabbing opponents shirts is cheating, so by this token Carra is a MASSIVE cheat, but nutters aside who doesn't love Carra?

Lots of players are cunts - like Bellers, he's a total cunt (of comes across that way on the pitch) but he's our cunt. Suarez, I'm sure, is a cunt, but he's our cunt so we forgive his indiscretions on the pitch. Were he a racist, I think ghats something many of us, myself included, could not look past - but being a cunt does not make him a racist and neither does the (incredibly flimsy) evidence put forward to the panel. Basically I think they can't look past him being a cunt and have found him guilty based on that, because there's no real evidence
[/quote]

Damn right Dan, top post. I'm with you on this one.
 
So noone in the media mention that Evra started it by adressing Suarez as "your sister cunt" or in the lines of that. They think that is all very fine behaviour.
 
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