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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454223#msg1454223 date=1325525975]
So noone in the media mention that Evra started it by adressing Suarez as "your sister cunt" or in the lines of that. They think that is all very fine behaviour.
[/quote]

No, that isn't deemed to be insulting enough......
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1454232#msg1454232 date=1325527237]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454223#msg1454223 date=1325525975]
So noone in the media mention that Evra started it by adressing Suarez as "your sister cunt" or in the lines of that. They think that is all very fine behaviour.
[/quote]

No, that isn't deemed to be insulting enough......
[/quote]

According to the linguistic experts, although it makes a reference to his sister, its common usage makes it equivalent to "Fucking hell".

I know in Chinese they often use "djew leh lo mo" which translates as "Go fuck your mother" but is often not intended to be taken literally and is used prolifically in a similar way
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454172#msg1454172 date=1325520973]
James Lawton's take:

Hopefully, the water that became so muddied will clear somewhat with the detailed report of the proceedings. Charges that Liverpool where somehow victims of a conspiracy worked by the sinister tentacles of Manchester United will maybe finish up where they started – in the rubbish bin of hysterical victimhood.
[/quote]

This sounds too familiar.
 
Paranoia setting in. When we beat utd 3-1 in March, Dowd was the ref and Marriner was the fourth official. Neither of them spotted Suarez pulling Rafeal's hair and perhaps fergie reminded them of this when he barged into the ref's room to dictate his and Evra's version of events.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=47188.msg1454239#msg1454239 date=1325527963]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1454232#msg1454232 date=1325527237]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454223#msg1454223 date=1325525975]
So noone in the media mention that Evra started it by adressing Suarez as "your sister cunt" or in the lines of that. They think that is all very fine behaviour.
[/quote]

No, that isn't deemed to be insulting enough......
[/quote]

According to the linguistic experts, although it makes a reference to his sister, its common usage makes it equivalent to "Fucking hell".

I know in Chinese they often use "djew leh lo mo" which translates as "Go fuck your mother" but is often not intended to be taken literally and is used prolifically in a similar way
[/quote]

Are these the same linguistic experts that failed to conjugate the verb "to be" as usually spoken in Latin America? There are so many holes and inconsistencies in this that it defies belief. Sadly it appears that we sent our reserve legal team to face The F.A.'s champions league team. Unsurprisingly we got arses handed to us.
 
Monday Jan 2Posted by: Kaushal Goyal 1 Comment »

F**king Anarchy

On New Year’s Eve, the FA chose to publish the report that took them 10 days to type and proof. We all thought it would be comprehensive and so it was. A good 115 pages long. Then there was a search on internet to find the report in a PDF format, try to find if the report included a concise version and also to find some semblance of a mood to enjoy the NYE.

In the meantime, the internet exploded with the so-called journalists who claimed to have read it and held no punches in criticizing Liverpool FC and Luis Suarez. The English press has, unsurprisingly, found new lows to dive to. These journalists have shamed their honorable profession and if I say I have no respect for them whatsoever, I’d be understating. Their tabloidism has killed people when they have chased celebrity cars. They have destroyed reputations of people, even of cities and they are at it again. Every single one of them wants to take the moral higher ground without heeding to what’s happened. For their sake, let us assume that the report is correct. It also states that Luis Suarez is NOT a racist. Journalists like Martin Lipton and Oliver Holt choose to ignore the fact and state the opposite. First things first though, the report is based on ‘probabilities’ and not on ‘facts’. As much is admitted in the report itself. So, before dissecting the report, let us lay here what it actually says. It states that on ‘balance of probabilities’, it seems more probable, in their opinion, that Evra’s account is closer to what happened than Suarez’s. The likes of Martin Lipton have gone on to brand Suarez a racist based on the report. The report categorically denies it and so does the instigator of the episode – Patrice Evra.

I don’t blame the supporters of other clubs branding Suarez with all kinds of names. We’ve got a game to play with every team at least once during the course of next 5 months and Suarez, by far, has been our best player in 2011. Even without that part, it is always good to have a rival team in some sort of trouble, isn’t it? They anyway don’t know the intricacies or details of the case as well as we may be followed or researched or even thought about it.

Let’s focus on the report for a little bit and why is it not The Bible. Why, in fact, it is as flawed as the LFC supporters think it is. First of all, the commission worked on a basis of ‘balance of probabilities’ as against the standard of ‘guilty beyond reasonable doubt’. As they’ve admitted in the report, they were a ‘jury’ and thus the decision on the case would ultimately depend on who they felt is ‘more credible’. It is not right or wrong, true or false, one or zero or, in fact, credible or incredible but more or less credible. A case that would decide the reputation of a professional footballer should have given more weightage to evidence, wouldn’t you think? Despite such an appalling methodology, let’s give the commission some benefit of doubt. Let’s agree that if it were to function on the basis of ‘guilty beyond reasonable doubt’, proper, incontestable evidence would have not been present and since it was the prerogative of the accuser to prove, the case against Suarez was never likely to win. In order to have a fair trial, let’s tilt the balance of the incident to favor the accuser, shall we? Fair? Not so much but let’s live with it for now.

Some of you might have read the report and some of you would have read some summaries/opinions. Some of you on the other hand would have heard about the contents. Although it is unlikely, I tried to read the report with as much of an open mind as possible. The early parts of the report were not a pretty reading for me as an LFC and a Luis Suarez fan. As dreadful as the length of the 115 page document sounds, the further you go into the document the less is the dread and more is the disgust. Let me see how accurate my short summary is: The commission finds that Luis Suarez has more probability of saying what he is alleged to have said since he was nervous and changed his version and didn’t answer in monosyllables and that the version he told his teammates after the game had three extra syllables. Well, that’s certainly not the most just summary but injustice is what the entire report smells of.

Could it, by any chance, be possible that Luis Suarez was nervous at the time of giving his testimony? The commission says he may be but still thinks that his testimony was garbled and that he did not give straight answers.

Could it be possible that during the course of the game and right after it with emotions, adrenaline and so many other factors running high, one of them being humiliation after being alleged to be racist and because of hearing untoward things being said about his place of nativity and his sister’s anatomy, he could have clouded recollection of what happened and when he sits down later to revise what happened, he could have remembered more accurately?

Let me ask some other questions from another perspective-

Could it be possible that Liverpool FC were playing a cover-up but in doing so, they did not even rehearse their lines?

Could itThe commission found that Suarez’s case was less probable than Evra’s case because -

1. Luis Suarez changed a few statements regarding the time of the events

2. [size=10pt]Comolli and Kuyt earlier remarked that they thought Luis had said “Por que, tu eres negro?” and not “Por que, negrito?” changing the meaning from ‘Why? Because you are black’ to ‘Why, Black?’. Even then there is confusion whether the initial thoughts included ‘eres’ or ‘es’.[/size]

3. Luis was ‘less composed’ during the testimony and did not give straight answers. That is to say that when he was asked a question, he would answer about question but not give a straight ‘yes or no’ answer.

4. The account that Suarez gave of the incident and the words that were exchanged were shorter than the conversation as detailed by Evra. Evra’s conversation was more in line with the video footage and ‘more probable’ to be the ‘closer’ account of what happened. It is to be noted here that Evra gave his testimony while looking at the screen.
be possible that Evra was racially abused by Luis Suarez and complained to the referee and when the referee did not hear it properly, he did not even repeat it? I mean it’s not as if Luis stole a pencil at school. Surely Evra knows racial abuse in intolerable and should be reported immediately. Why did he not make the referee acknowledge his complaint? (Later when Evra and Fergie complained to Marriner, Marriner remarked ‘Oh that’s why you were saying something about black’).

[size=10pt]As per the report, here is what Evra told his mates in the dressing room about the words Suarez used:

Valencia’s version: “Negro, no hablas conmigo”

Hernandez: “No voy a platicar contigo porque eres negro”

Anderson: “no hablo con negro”

And Nani couldn’t remember the exact words Evra said. Of course the three statements above are exactly the same, eh? Of course how Kuyt/Comolli versions differed by three syllables was more ‘inconsistent’ and the difference more implicating[/size].


[size=10pt]Evra complained to the commission that Suarez called him a ‘nigger’ but later changed that to Spanish ‘negro’ since Spanish doesn’t differentiate between ‘black’ and ‘nigger’. Evra’s initial complaint to the referee was ‘he called me a fucking black’ where as later the complaint was ‘he called me a fucking nigger’ and ultimately back to ‘black’. Very consistent allegation sir.[/size]
[size=10pt]Then there is the small matter of information, transcripts, tapes of FA’s interview with Patrice Evra being held from Liverpool Football Club for about more than 3 weeks must be a very minor oversight[/size].

During the course of the report the commission emphasizes that the burden of proof was on the FA and may be I didn’t pay much attention, I couldn’t find any ‘evidence’ in the report.

What the FA and the commission have done here is use some kind of bent logic called ‘balance of probabilities’ and estimates that Luis Suarez said things that Patrice Evra has alleged and using that subjective logic, has branded the player as racist forever despite proclaiming that he is not racist and the comments might have been ‘out of character’.

The rules of the code that were used pronounce judgement first have to find whether Suarez insulted Evra and then establish whether the insult was racist in any manner. Here are the rules:

Rule E3, with the sub-heading “General Behaviour”, provides as follows:

“(1) A Participant shall at all times act in the best interests of the game and shall not act in any manner which is improper or brings the game into disrepute or use any one, or a combination of, violent conduct, serious foul play, threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting words or behaviour.
(2) In the event of any breach of Rule E3(1) including a reference to any one or more of a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, faith, gender, sexual orientation or disability (an “aggravating factor”), a Regulatory Commission shall consider the imposition of an increased sanction, taking into account the following entry points:
1.For a first offence, a sanction that is double that which the Regulatory Commission would have applied had the aggravating factor not been present. For a second offence, a sanction that is treble that which the Regulatory Commission would have applied had the aggravating factor not been present.
2.Any further such offence(s) shall give rise to consideration of a permanent suspension.
3.These entry points are intended to guide the Regulatory Commission and are not mandatory.
4.The Regulatory Commission shall have the discretion to impose a sanction greater or less than the entry point, according to the aggravating or mitigating factors present in each case.”

If Patrice Evra did indeed start the conversation talking about Luis Suarez’s sister “Concha de tu hermana, porque me diste in golpe”, how can that not bring the game to disrepute (specially since the statement is now well known) and not be tantamount to abusive and/or indecent and/or insulting words? It is also to be noted that all parties have agreed that this (or whatever else Evra’s version is) was the starting point of whatever transpired later. In that case, should this not be penalized first and everything that happened later shouldn’t only be seen as a by-product of this first offense?

Luis Suarez was not in an open stretch of field. He was in the opposition box waiting for a corner. There would have been at least eight Manchester United players in that box. How come nobody else heard even a part of the conversation? How can there be no other witness? If there are none, ain’t it a probability that the conversation mightn’t have happened in the first place?

Let’s say Patrice Evra did complain to referee about Suarez’s calling him a ‘fucking black’. Would he not have then also confided in a couple of his teammates during the game itself or was it too trivial an issue for him to do that? What is the ‘probability’ of him not doing that? If Luis did call Evra a ‘negro’ or ‘negrito’ or any other form of the word five or seven times, what is the probability of no one else hearing it even once? It is not like Evra plays like a lone striker and is usually left alone in the opposition box with defenders like Suarez. On the contrary and based on historical evidence, Suarez is the one who is usually crowded by opposition defense. Would Evra have gone to the referee alone to complain about such a thing during the game? Would he not have sought support/empathy from his team-mates? That trivial an issue Patrice?

Even if I take out my LFC glasses for a minute, what this commission has done is that they have set a very dangerous precedent. Hence forth, if there is a altercation between two players of different races, one of them can use this precedent to get the other one penalized, branded, characterized for life.

Fathom this – If there is a verbal duel between two players of different races, can one of them not blame other for racist comments may be by changing a word like ‘slack’ or ‘wank’ or whatever else to ‘black’ from the conversation and then pop a couple of anti-anxiety pills during the interview in front of any commission?

Sad times indeed for a supporter of ‘the best league in the world’!

YNWA and thank you for the patience to read thru if you’ve reached here. As an afterthought, I might as well apologize for any incoherence in the article. The events make it such sad reading that I do not even wish to proof-read it.

Kaushal
 
I will quote first the FA document on the key point:

“90. Mr Evra's evidence was that, in response to his question "Why did you kick me?", Mr
Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro". Mr Evra said that at the time Mr Suarez made that
comment, he (Mr Evra) understood it to mean "Because you are a ******". He now says
that he believes the words used by Mr Suarez mean "Because you are black".”

End quote.

I read the whole FA report. I am a Uruguayan born in Montevideo, currently a university Literature and Language professor in the US. It is clear to me that the Spanish language reported by Evra is inconsistent with Luis Suárez’s way of speaking Spanish. I am surprised nobody (and especially, the Liverpool lawyers) raised this point. The key is that Evra makes Suárez to appear using forms of Spanish Suárez just wouldn't use. Suárez cannot speak as Evra reported him speaking. And that strongly suggests that Evra made the whole thing up.

This is, I believe, key for the case and, if acknowledged, it would destroy Evra’s credibility. The fact that the FA has not noted that Suárez would never say “porque tu eres negro” (that is just not a way of speaking in the Rio de la Plata area), much less “porque tu es negro” or “tues negro” (as Comolly apparently stated), which are gramatically incorrect or just do not exist in Spanish. You don’t use the verb “ser” (to be) in the Rio de la Plata area that way. Luis Suarez would have said “porque SOS negro”. There is no possible variation or alternative to this whatsoever in our use of Spanish. And we of course don’t say “por que tu es negro” (as supposedly Commoly reported) because this is no Spanish syntax. In that sentence “es” is being wrongly conjugated in the third person of singular while it should have been conjugated in the second, “sos” (and never, I repeat, “eres”). Hence, I don't know what Comolly heard from Suarez after the match, but I am positive he got it wrong--unless we believe that Suarez cannot even speak Spanish...

What follows to these is that Evra’s report on what Suarez said is unreliable, just because Evra depicts Suárez speaking in a form of Spanish Suárez just does not use.- Suárez cannot have said “porque tu eres negro”. He would have said--if at all he said anything-- “porque sos negro”. And the problem is that this is not what Evra declared. Once again: Evra reports Suárez to have told him “porque tu eres negro” which just sound unplausible. People from Montevideo or Buenos Aires just do NOT USE that verb “ser” (to be) that way. In such a case we would say “porque sos negro”. How come Evra reports Suárez speaking as he does not speak, and the FA accepts his word? Looks like Evra is making this up.

***

That said, let’s pay some attention to the incredibly sloppy way the FA has managed the Spanish language in their report.

“138. Mr Comolli said in his witness statement that Mr Suarez told him nothing happened. He
said that there was one incident where he said sorry to Mr Evra and Mr Evra told him
"Don't touch me, South American" to which Mr Comolli thought Mr Suarez said he had
replied "Por que, tu eres negro?". (...) Mr Comolli confirmed under cross-examination
that he believed that what he was told by Mr Suarez in this meeting was that the words he
had used to Mr Evra translated as "Why, because you are black"." Endquote.

“Por que, tu eres negro?”…. ??!! This makes no sense. It is no Spanish. “Por qué” means “why” (and not “because” in this case). It is incorrectly spelled by the FA in their official report (they don’t seem to give a damn about Spanish, since they treat Spanish in such a careless way all along the report). It cannot be translated in a way that makes sense. Literally, if I had to translate it, it would be something like this: “why, you are black?” I have no idea what that could mean.

And Mr Comolli’s version is VERY different from Suarez’s own statement. Let’s see what Suarez himself reported:

"141. Mr Suarez's version of this conversation was as follows. He said that Mr Comolli
explained to him that Sir Alex Ferguson and Mr Evra had complained to the referee that
Mr Suarez had racially insulted Mr Evra five times during the game. Mr Comolli asked Mr
Suarez to tell him what happened. Mr Suarez told him that Mr Evra had said to him
"Don't touch me, South American". Mr Suarez had said "Por que negro?". Mr Suarez told
Mr Comolli that this was the only thing he had said."

What Suarez stated makes perfect sense in the Spanish we speak in the Rio de la Plata area –even though, again, it is ill transcripted by the FA. They should have written: “¿Por qué, negro?”. Then, I have no idea why, the FA believes in the incorrect Spanish of a non native speaker (Comolli), instead of crediting Suarez about his own words…

The linguistic abilities of the FA are completely under question here, and they seem to have been key in their grounding of the case. Let’s see how lousy their understanding and use of Spanish language is, by looking in detail at just another part of the reasons alleged by the FA:

"284 (...) Mr Comolli said to the referee that Mr Evra first said "you
are South American" to Mr Suarez who responded with "Tues Negro" which translates as
"you are black"." Endquote.

It is ridiculous that the FA, after careful consideration of everything, would even consider relevant whatever Mr Comolli might have understood from Suárez, when it is clear Mr Comolli can barely understands what he himself is trying to say in Spanish. I say this because “tues” is no Spanish word. And “tues negro” cannot be translated at all—let alone into what the FA says it means. It’s simply not a Spanish expression, so it cannot be “translated”. Comolli recollection from his chat with Suárez just after the match is unreliable. A pity since it arrived to the FA jury through a Liverpool official, but the language is so ridiculously wrong it makes me laugh.

In sum: Suárez could not have even said “tu eres” negro, which would be gramatically correct in Madrid, because in the Rio de la Plata area we would never say “tu eres negro”, but “vos SOS negro”. And that is a fact, not a matter of the opinion of anyone, not even the language experts consulted by the FA, of course. I am a native speaker of Montevideo, a PhD in Spanish by Stanford, and currently a professor of Spanish at Brown University, and if I was called to court on this, I would categorically deny that Suarez, who lived his adult life in Montevideo—despite being born in Salto—could have said other than “vos sos negro”. There is no way in the world he could have said to Evra, spontaneously and as a reaction to Evra’s words and attitudes, “porque tu eres negro”—and much less “tues negro”, that doesn’t exist. Simply “tues” is no Spanish.
Despite of that, the FA makes it stand and transcribes it in their report, and substantiate their conviction on these words.

***

Reading Evra’s statement, I understand it could happen that Evra misunderstood Suárez at some point. When Suárez said “¿por qué, negro?”, Evra might have assumed that as a racial insult, while Suárez—even in the heat of a discussion—could perfectly have said that as a way of normally expressing himself (not exactly to calm Evra down, but just because he normally would talk like that without thinking about it). This point is where the cultural clash seems more important, and it is working against Suárez because nobody in the jury (let alone the Daily Mail kind of media) seems to even start understanding the common way we use the term “negro” in the Rio de la Plata area. They heard their experts, and their experts explained the different options of our use of the word depending on different contexts and intentions. Then, the jury just decided that the whole thing was an equally aggressive clash by both sides, and because of that, they concluded Suárez could have not use the "negro" word to Evra in a descriptive way. Why? Their interpretation is not clear to me and doesn’t seem to be the only one possible. “¿Por qué, negro?” (after Evra said “Don’t touch me you South American”) is not offensive, but a question, and a very common one indeed, where “negro” is a DESCRIPTIVE noun, not an adjective loaded with a negative connotation. I completely understand why a British or an American might start not understanding the tone or the intention from Suárez. But I myself can clearly understand the account Suárez does and it seems consistent to me. I hear it more as a common (unmarked and uncharged) addressing to Evra.

Finally, the whole verdict seems to be grounded on 3 elements:
1) The FA tends to believe Evra is more reliable than Suarez (a purely subjective element)
2) The FA does not seem to have understood the Spanish language allegedly used --even though they grounded they verdict on their own interpretation of that very Spanish language.
3) They believe the word "negro" cannot be used just in a descriptive way in the context of a discussion--which means they don't really understand how we do use it in the Rio de la Plata area. This made them feel Suarez was unreliable and probably aggravated them.

A pity. The most important thing here has to do with proportion. Suárez’s name has been destroyed and now the FA has shown there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of Suarez saying any of the things Evra attributes to him, exception made of Evra’s own statement.

Evra convinced the FA. And I wonder how much of racial prejudice (against the "wild animals" South Americans are supposed to be after Alf Ramsey's famous remark) there is at play on the FA and media heads.
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=47188.msg1454239#msg1454239 date=1325527963]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1454232#msg1454232 date=1325527237]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1454223#msg1454223 date=1325525975]
So noone in the media mention that Evra started it by adressing Suarez as "your sister cunt" or in the lines of that. They think that is all very fine behaviour.
[/quote]

No, that isn't deemed to be insulting enough......
[/quote]

According to the linguistic experts, although it makes a reference to his sister, its common usage makes it equivalent to "Fucking hell".

I know in Chinese they often use "djew leh lo mo" which translates as "Go fuck your mother" but is often not intended to be taken literally and is used prolifically in a similar way
[/quote]

Gan!! Thats 'Du die lo mo' I speak all the Chinese Swear words Pokboy!
 
That's not him. This Bou guy is Catalan, not Uruguayan.

Main thing is the club gets the info. They'll have to have it checked by their own experts anyway. I guess if it's on the liverpoolfc.tv forum, they'll know about it already.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454363#msg1454363 date=1325540216]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
[/quote]

Why do you care? You've made up your mind regardless
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454363#msg1454363 date=1325540216]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
[/quote]

It is good because it categorically proves Evra made up what happened in the goalmouth. But if you'd bothered paying attention to what I told you about liars, and how to spot lies the other day.... then this would not be a shock to you. You know i-rushie's post about how the FA used a barrister and we used a solicitor. Well as superior the barrister was to the solicitor, I am simply that superior to a barrister. Gunfights? Knife fights? They're both children to me. When you come to fight dantes you better bring a nuclear warhead with you.
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454367#msg1454367 date=1325540508]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454363#msg1454363 date=1325540216]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
[/quote]

Why do you care? You've made up your mind regardless
[/quote]

I just wanted to know what you think it changes.

because I don't think it change anything
 
The key is that Evra makes Suárez to appear using forms of Spanish Suárez just wouldn't use. Suárez cannot speak as Evra reported him speaking. And that strongly suggests that Evra made the whole thing up.
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1454370#msg1454370 date=1325540660]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454363#msg1454363 date=1325540216]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
[/quote]

It is good because it categorically proves Evra made up what happened in the goalmouth. But if you'd bothered paying attention to what I told you about liars, and how to spot lies the other day.... then this would not be a shock to you. You know i-rushie's post about how the FA used a barrister and we used a solicitor. Well as superior the barrister was to the solicitor, I am simply that superior to a barrister. Gunfights? Knife fights? They're both children to me. When you come to fight dantes you better bring a nuclear warhead with you.
[/quote]

a) it's on video
b) Comolli and Kuyt both gave evidence that was very similar to part of Evra's account, after being told what happened by Suarez.

That's a spoon you've got there Dantes
 
[quote author=i_rushie link=topic=47188.msg1454103#msg1454103 date=1325513648]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454091#msg1454091 date=1325513202]
[quote author=i_rushie link=topic=47188.msg1454087#msg1454087 date=1325513084]
We had opportunities to tie up the inconsistencies in our statements and oral evidence before the hearing. We failed to do so.

We had opportunities to cross examine Evra and friends, and elicit responses in our favour. We failed to do so.

In every court case, the ones who turn up with knives to a gunfight are the ones who lose. This case was no different. The FA turned up with a barrister, Mr Paul Greaney of Queen's Counsel. We turned up with a solicitor, Peter fucking McCormick "OBE", who advised Michael Duberry to lie to the police in the Woodgate/Bowyer trial.
[/quote]

Evra was interviwed 4 TIMES while the Video was playing in front of him, so he could say step by step what happened.

Suarez was interviewed ONCE with no Video running.
[/quote]

Asbo, I can only say if you are ever in a Court hearing and the opposition seeks to admit late evidence, and you haven't had time to review it, don't let your dipshit of a lawyer agree to proceed without taking thorough and complete instructions from you. The fact that your dipshit of a lawyer has not even adverted to using widely available video and/or audio material to corroborate your evidence is perhaps a sign you ought to be seeking new legal representation. He probably hasn't heard of discovery even.

Like I said, knives to a gunfight.
[/quote]

This is not as catastrophic as it would seem. It was a disciplinary hearing.... the letter from the FA would have said we are free to bring a friend, or even represent ourselves. So we can argue that we weren't aware the outcome of the hearing was going to be handled like a trial... with arguments on specific points of law, with cross-examinations, etc. None of that would have been suggested. So we attended the hearing with a normal solicitor, and we chose one with previous experience of FA hearings in order to advise Mr Suarez on how it works, and what to expect, etc.

So when the FA pulled out a fucking OJ Simpson still trial, it was completely uncalled for. And so for that reason we can alter our position from the one that McFuckWit left us in... after having sought more appropriate legal advise. You know the FA basically tried to ambush us in the way the hearing was conducted. I'm assuming that it was conducted as per the 115pgs. For all we know the hearing could have been very different, and they just put a biased spin on events in how they wrote up the judgement. Either way to put someone effectively on trial under the guise of a "disciplinary hearing" is utterly wrong. Any judge would frown upon it.

And what's more, they treated it like a trial when it suited them. But then when it came to things like evidence, burdens of proof, interpretations of the regulations, then they excused themselves as not being as serious as a criminal/trial matter. Again any judge would frown upon that.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454379#msg1454379 date=1325541194]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1454370#msg1454370 date=1325540660]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454363#msg1454363 date=1325540216]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
[/quote]

It is good because it categorically proves Evra made up what happened in the goalmouth. But if you'd bothered paying attention to what I told you about liars, and how to spot lies the other day.... then this would not be a shock to you. You know i-rushie's post about how the FA used a barrister and we used a solicitor. Well as superior the barrister was to the solicitor, I am simply that superior to a barrister. Gunfights? Knife fights? They're both children to me. When you come to fight dantes you better bring a nuclear warhead with you.
[/quote]

a) it's on video
b) Comolli and Kuyt both gave evidence that was very similar to part of Evra's account, after being told what happened by Suarez.

That's a spoon you've got there Dantes
[/quote]

I don't even know what to say to that. Are you kidding me?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454379#msg1454379 date=1325541194]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1454370#msg1454370 date=1325540660]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454363#msg1454363 date=1325540216]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454360#msg1454360 date=1325539642]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1454324#msg1454324 date=1325538028]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1454322#msg1454322 date=1325537993]
Fantastic post Sean. Absolutly brillant mate.
[/quote]

Its not his
* Unless he is the Prof of Hispanic Studies in Brown Uni USA 😉
[/quote]

Ha, was good regardless though mate
[/quote]

Why was it good ?
[/quote]

It is good because it categorically proves Evra made up what happened in the goalmouth. But if you'd bothered paying attention to what I told you about liars, and how to spot lies the other day.... then this would not be a shock to you. You know i-rushie's post about how the FA used a barrister and we used a solicitor. Well as superior the barrister was to the solicitor, I am simply that superior to a barrister. Gunfights? Knife fights? They're both children to me. When you come to fight dantes you better bring a nuclear warhead with you.
[/quote]

a) it's on video
b) Comolli and Kuyt both gave evidence that was very similar to part of Evra's account, after being told what happened by Suarez.

That's a spoon you've got there Dantes
[/quote]

The whole case turns on specific words and their usage. "Very similar" isn't good enough, or wouldn't be in a properly regulated process.
 
Let me say this for the fourth time Rosco. Evra's account was similar to Comolli's only AFTER him and ferguson saw Comolli's account. And when you pay attention to the tell tail signs of where people are lying, you will see this. The only way to prove that it was similar, would be with the written notes the referee took at the time before Comolli went to see him. Those notes were destroyed (in the course of the FA investigation). And also, what JJ said.

And also, there is no video of what was said. Well there is, but noone has analysed it forensically to see if the mouth movements match with what Evra claimed he said. Suarez' mouth was not visible according to the FA.

And for everyone claiming it was an heated argument. You can only see from the video that Evra was heated. He was pissed off. All you see Suarez do is shrug his shoulders. I don't see him looking angry, or losing control, or responding to kind in Evra. He fucking shrugged his shoulders. The FA extrapolate Evra's state of mind and assume Suarez was in a similar state. Bullshit.
 
Even our own representation admitted the stupidity of the argument you're using there Dantes

Mr Suarez sought to persuade us that when he used the word "negro" to speak to Mr Evra
he was acting in a conciliatory and friendly way, without intent to offend and in a way
that would not be seen as offensive in Uruguay. He also said that when he pinched Mr
Evra's skin he was trying to defuse the situation.
355. We rejected the evidence of Mr Suarez on these points. The pinching of the skin, and Mr
Suarez's admitted use of the word "negro" when speaking to Mr Evra, took place in the
context of heated exchanges between the players. Mr Suarez had fouled Mr Evra in the
58th minute. Mr Evra confronted Mr Suarez in the 63rd minute and complained forcefully
about the foul. Their facial expressions, gesturing and physical movement showed their
mutual animosity throughout these exchanges.
356. Mr Suarez's pinching of Mr Evra's skin was not an attempt to defuse the situation. On the
contrary, it was an attempt to aggravate Mr Evra and to inflame the situation. Mr Suarez's
admitted use of the word "negro" when speaking to Mr Evra was not conciliatory and
friendly. It was unfriendly and was used as part of Mr Suarez's attempt to wind up Mr
Evra. The whole tenor of the exchanges was confrontational and argumentative. Adopting
the words used by the Spanish language experts, Mr Suarez did not use "negro" with any
sense of rapport or in an attempt to create such rapport.
357. Not only did we reject this evidence of Mr Suarez, but we found it remarkable that he
sought to advance a case that was so clearly inconsistent with any sensible appreciation of
what happened. Even Mr McCormick accepted in his closing submissions that the
pinching could not reasonably be described as an attempt to defuse the situation. To
suggest otherwise, as Mr Suarez did, was unarguable. Mr Suarez's evidence on these
topics, which was shown to be flawed, profoundly undermined our confidence in the
reliability of his evidence.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1454392#msg1454392 date=1325542178]
Even our own representation admitted the stupidity of the argument you're using there Dantes

Mr Suarez sought to persuade us that when he used the word "negro" to speak to Mr Evra
he was acting in a conciliatory and friendly way, without intent to offend and in a way
that would not be seen as offensive in Uruguay. He also said that when he pinched Mr
Evra's skin he was trying to defuse the situation.
355. We rejected the evidence of Mr Suarez on these points. The pinching of the skin, and Mr
Suarez's admitted use of the word "negro" when speaking to Mr Evra, took place in the
context of heated exchanges between the players. Mr Suarez had fouled Mr Evra in the
58th minute. Mr Evra confronted Mr Suarez in the 63rd minute and complained forcefully
about the foul. Their facial expressions, gesturing and physical movement showed their
mutual animosity throughout these exchanges.
356. Mr Suarez's pinching of Mr Evra's skin was not an attempt to defuse the situation. On the
contrary, it was an attempt to aggravate Mr Evra and to inflame the situation. Mr Suarez's
admitted use of the word "negro" when speaking to Mr Evra was not conciliatory and
friendly. It was unfriendly and was used as part of Mr Suarez's attempt to wind up Mr
Evra. The whole tenor of the exchanges was confrontational and argumentative. Adopting
the words used by the Spanish language experts, Mr Suarez did not use "negro" with any
sense of rapport or in an attempt to create such rapport.
357. Not only did we reject this evidence of Mr Suarez, but we found it remarkable that he
sought to advance a case that was so clearly inconsistent with any sensible appreciation of
what happened. Even Mr McCormick accepted in his closing submissions that the
pinching could not reasonably be described as an attempt to defuse the situation. To
suggest otherwise, as Mr Suarez did, was unarguable. Mr Suarez's evidence on these
topics, which was shown to be flawed, profoundly undermined our confidence in the
reliability of his evidence.
[/quote]

McFuckWit. You're using McFuckWit's submission against me? OMG.

What can I say. Try this.... go to the footage on youtube and refer me to one single frame which shows to you that Suarez was "heated". You will only find he got heated at the moment they were walking away from the ref and Evra shoved his arm away. That's it. If Suarez spoke english, he would have answered this himself. The fact his representation is mentally challenged is not evidence. You're really taking the piss now to rely on it.

Or ask Oncy. He knows Suarez pretty well. If Evra came over to him storming and heated and fuming....how would Suarez react? That is correct.... he would be happy with his work. Cos despite my defence of him, the man is a cunt like that. He was fucking smiling and sarcastic and all that kind of shit. Of course he will not tell the FA that was what his state of mind was. But I know it. Oncy knows it. You for some reason think McFuckWit knows it. Do me favour.
 
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