The Manc Derby

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39840.msg1089356#msg1089356 date=1271530378]
[quote author=Dee link=topic=39840.msg1089341#msg1089341 date=1271529535]
1 Chelsea 35 54 77
2 Man Utd 35 51 76
3 Arsenal 34 40 71
4 Spurs 34 28 64
5 Man City 34 27 62
6 Liverpool 34 21 56
7 Villa 33 12 55

Spurs 8 points ahead with only 12 on the table

Man Utd (a)
Bolton (H)
Man City (A)
Burnley (A)
[/quote]

I could see spurs fucking up 2 games out of 4 but not 3, that game was massive for them. I hope everyone is enjoying europa because that's what we're playing next season.
[/quote]

Why would anyone enjoy Europa?

I do hope we win it tho, of course.

We havent won anything for fucking ages, and Rafa'd be able to point to his trophy haul and be deemed by the Cult to be the Messiah.

 

[Shadey]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39840.msg1089372#msg1089372 date=1271531572]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39840.msg1089356#msg1089356 date=1271530378]
[quote author=Dee link=topic=39840.msg1089341#msg1089341 date=1271529535]
1 Chelsea 35 54 77
2 Man Utd 35 51 76
3 Arsenal 34 40 71
4 Spurs 34 28 64
5 Man City 34 27 62
6 Liverpool 34 21 56
7 Villa 33 12 55

Spurs 8 points ahead with only 12 on the table

Man Utd (a)
Bolton (H)
Man City (A)
Burnley (A)
[/quote]

I could see spurs fucking up 2 games out of 4 but not 3, that game was massive for them. I hope everyone is enjoying europa because that's what we're playing next season.
[/quote]

Why would anyone enjoy Europa?

I do hope we win it tho, of course.

We havent won anything for fucking ages, and Rafa'd be able to point to his trophy haul and be deemed by the Cult to be the Messiah.
[/quote]He'll do what Maurene did when porto won the champions league..

 

[LeTallecWiz]

 

[LFC_DO]

If Villa finish above us would we still qualify for Europe?

 

[Tal]

[quote author=LFC_DO link=topic=39840.msg1089387#msg1089387 date=1271534319]
If Villa finish above us would we still qualify for Europe?
[/quote]

I think, yes, probably.

5th place is the first Europa spot.

6th came into play when Utd won the Carling Cup. The winners are eligible unless they qualify for the CL. The losers don't get the place (unlike in the FA Cup) so that spot gets given to a league placing.

7th looks likely to come into play due to Portsmouth's financial problems. Ordinarily they would be granted a place just by getting into the FA Cup final. As Chelsea will be in the CL, win or lose, Portsmouth would get the Europa place but they couldn't/didn't apply to be in Europe next season. I guess they may get some special dispensation if the FA supports it, so we'll have to wait and see.

However, another place may be on offer via the UEFA 'Fair Play' league, so it could down to 8th place in the Prem this season.

So we will struggle to avoid the Europa League next season; unless of course we drop below Everton and fail to win the UEFA Cup itself.

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Dee link=topic=39840.msg1089335#msg1089335 date=1271529101]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=39840.msg1089325#msg1089325 date=1271528831]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39840.msg1089318#msg1089318 date=1271528551]
proof that if your fullbaks have ability you can get away without wingers.
watching bale for spurs when we have insua (the worst LB in our history) is enough to make a grown man cry
[/quote]

Bale started and played on the wing.
[/quote]

Not only that Spurs paid £5M up front with £5M based on performance for a 17-year old. We got Insua as a straight swap for the formidable Palleta (remember him?)

You get what you pay for.
[/quote]

Didn't we pay £6M for Reina?

 

[Avmenon]

Exactly right.

Money is important; as quality does cost you.

But if you have less money than you have to pay greater attention to your purchases; and not whine about how other managers also make costly mistakes so i shouldnt be singled out.

 

[Mamma Mia]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39840.msg1089372#msg1089372 date=1271531572]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39840.msg1089356#msg1089356 date=1271530378]
[quote author=Dee link=topic=39840.msg1089341#msg1089341 date=1271529535]
1 Chelsea 35 54 77
2 Man Utd 35 51 76
3 Arsenal 34 40 71
4 Spurs 34 28 64
5 Man City 34 27 62
6 Liverpool 34 21 56
7 Villa 33 12 55

Spurs 8 points ahead with only 12 on the table

Man Utd (a)
Bolton (H)
Man City (A)
Burnley (A)
[/quote]

I could see spurs fucking up 2 games out of 4 but not 3, that game was massive for them. I hope everyone is enjoying europa because that's what we're playing next season.
[/quote]

Why would anyone enjoy Europa?

I do hope we win it tho, of course.

We havent won anything for fucking ages, and Rafa'd be able to point to his trophy haul and be deemed by the Cult to be the Messiah.
[/quote]

Fuck, these posts are really grating.

Mate, the few on SCM who respect and like Rafa have never really changed their views on him. Varied they may be, we generally think he's a very good manager, who can be a bit stubborn at times (can you name a great manager who isn't?), he's better than almost any realistic alternative, he has the ability to win us another CL and quite probably a league title if everything clicks for a full season, etc.

You won't find any who won't admit that there is a case to be made for a change. Just a few people who support the manager, would like to see him here next season, and when faced with over the top Rafa-bashing, cannot help but defend the manager of the club they support.

These people are not getting any more extreme in their opinions over time. We've felt that way for a few years now, and this season has worn away at these opinions a little, not made them stronger.

So why is it that the more you work yourself up about Rafa, the more you demonise those who support him? You simply make things up these days. 'Cult'? 'Messiah'?
Try to remember that the difference of opinion is getting bigger by the week, not because our support is geting stronger, but simply because your disdain is increasing.

You remind me of a 'new atheist' who in order to justify his opinions to himself, progressively views religious people with more and more bias and hatred. By all means, say want you want to about Rafa, but stop spouting crap about people on this forum.

 

[Avmenon]

I'm sorry if you find my posts grating, though I feel I'm speaking the truth.

Firstly, I don't think he's a great manager; so that will save me the trouble of replying to your second paragraph.

I don't think I'm any more worked up about Rafa than any of the more sensible posters around here..the polarisation has become very marked, with those posters exonerating Rafa clutching at all kinds of excuses (some with merit admittedly) and blaming everything but Rafa for the disaster that is our season.

It's not surprising they do this, since he pretty much does the same thing.

I have no particular hatred of Rafa, and if you'd read my posts you'd see that I personally like Rafa a great deal.

But he has failed; and you cant justify failure because you think he's Liverpool through and through (which he is).

I do think your likening of my opinion about Rafa to 'atheism' is a bit pathetic, though.

 

[Mamma Mia]

You've missed the point.

 

[Avmenon]

Ok.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39840.msg1089513#msg1089513 date=1271582197]

I'm sorry if you find my posts grating, though I feel I'm speaking the truth.

Firstly, I don't think he's a great manager; so that will save me the trouble of replying to your second paragraph.

I don't think I'm any more worked up about Rafa than any of the more sensible posters around here..the polarisation has become very marked, with those posters exonerating Rafa clutching at all kinds of excuses (some with merit admittedly) and blaming everything but Rafa for the disaster that is our season.

It's not surprising they do this, since he pretty much does the same thing.

I have no particular hatred of Rafa, and if you'd read my posts you'd see that I personally like Rafa a great deal.

But he has failed; and you cant justify failure because you think he's Liverpool through and through (which he is).

I do think your likening of my opinion about Rafa to 'atheism' is a bit pathetic, though.
[/quote]

Since I like and respect both of you, I'm going to add a pennyworth here.

Avvy, I have to say I'm with Mo on this. I know you to be a true Red and that's obv.the source of your evident frustration - which you can safely assume every one of us shares - but that frustration has carried you too far in an increasing number of your posts. You keep alleging that some people "blame anything but Rafa" and that simply isn't the case, not any more anyway. You then go on to deride these straw men you've set up with petty jibes which are unworthy of you, e.g.your reference above to "sensible posters", which presumably means "critics of Rafa", the inference being that anyone who says a syllable in his defence isn't sensible.

Those of us who don't think all the problems are Rafa's fault have made it quite clear that we do blame him for plenty of what's gone on. Unfortunately too many posters are too busy being Outraged with a capital "O" to read the posts in question properly and notice that. The polarisation to which you refer above is AT LEAST as much the doing of those who want to put every scrap of the blame on the manager, hence Mo's reference to "new atheists", because in that debate the likes of Dawkins seem similarly unable to put their arguments forward without intemperate demonisation of their opponents.

There's always a danger in the circs.we currently face that a group of people like us, who should be holding together, turn on one another under the pressure of events. That danger is magnified on an internet forum, with its inherent temptations to extravagant language and posturing, to which we've almost all fallen victim at one time or another. The saving grace in all this is that at least it shows we care. Let's give each other credit for that. More temperate debate should then follow, and perhaps with it the chance to cast more light than heat for a change.

 

[Spionkop69]

Good posts by Mo and JJ.

Lots of love,
The Cult

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

I always thought you were a cult Spion.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39840.msg1089567#msg1089567 date=1271589980]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39840.msg1089513#msg1089513 date=1271582197]

I'm sorry if you find my posts grating, though I feel I'm speaking the truth.

Firstly, I don't think he's a great manager; so that will save me the trouble of replying to your second paragraph.

I don't think I'm any more worked up about Rafa than any of the more sensible posters around here..the polarisation has become very marked, with those posters exonerating Rafa clutching at all kinds of excuses (some with merit admittedly) and blaming everything but Rafa for the disaster that is our season.

It's not surprising they do this, since he pretty much does the same thing.

I have no particular hatred of Rafa, and if you'd read my posts you'd see that I personally like Rafa a great deal.

But he has failed; and you cant justify failure because you think he's Liverpool through and through (which he is).

I do think your likening of my opinion about Rafa to 'atheism' is a bit pathetic, though.
[/quote]

Since I like and respect both of you, I'm going to add a pennyworth here.

Avvy, I have to say I'm with Mo on this. I know you to be a true Red and that's obv.the source of your evident frustration - which you can safely assume every one of us shares - but that frustration has carried you too far in an increasing number of your posts. You keep alleging that some people "blame anything but Rafa" and that simply isn't the case, not any more anyway. You then go on to deride these straw men you've set up with petty jibes which are unworthy of you, e.g.your reference above to "sensible posters", which presumably means "critics of Rafa", the inference being that anyone who says a syllable in his defence isn't sensible.

Those of us who don't think all the problems are Rafa's fault have made it quite clear that we do blame him for plenty of what's gone on. Unfortunately too many posters are too busy being Outraged with a capital "O" to read the posts in question properly and notice that. The polarisation to which you refer above is AT LEAST as much the doing of those who want to put every scrap of the blame on the manager, hence Mo's reference to "new atheists", because in that debate the likes of Dawkins seem similarly unable to put their arguments forward without intemperate demonisation of their opponents.

There's always a danger in the circs.we currently face that a group of people like us, who should be holding together, turn on one another under the pressure of events. That danger is magnified on an internet forum, with its inherent temptations to extravagant language and posturing, to which we've almost all fallen victim at one time or another. The saving grace in all this is that at least it shows we care. Let's give each other credit for that. More temperate debate should then follow, and perhaps with it the chance to cast more light than heat for a change.
[/quote]

There are a few things I don't agree with in there JJ but I'm not goint to respond to them cause that is a truly great post.

Well said.

 

[Avmenon]

I agree that it's a good post; but my opinion is not changed.

I think there are too many on here who enter caveats when they grudgingly attach culpability to Rafa for his mistakes.

But thats immaterial now.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Great posts by MM and JJ.