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Poll The G.O.A.T

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So is he now?

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[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45126.msg1323260#msg1323260 date=1303998651]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323258#msg1323258 date=1303998521]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45126.msg1323250#msg1323250 date=1303998185]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323246#msg1323246 date=1303997908]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45126.msg1323167#msg1323167 date=1303992585]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323165#msg1323165 date=1303992381]
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=45126.msg1323164#msg1323164 date=1303992209]
A few more things that need to be taken into consideration is that during the era of Best et al they didn't have the top medical staff looking after them, the teams were lacking in knowledge of what is the ideal diet for athletes, they were playing on pitches which weren't maintained to the standards modern pitches are, they played with balls that gained weight when it rained while wearing boots that also became heavier while sodden. All while earning five quid a week.
I could imagine the crying and moaning that today's top players would do if you forced them to play under those conditions.
[/quote]Thats all very true.

Zidane and Maradona are still well better.
[/quote]

;D


With theories abounding that there are something like 14 trillion alternate realities I guess the chances are that, in one of them, Maradonna and Zidane are the best in history. Just not in this reality.
[/quote]Pah. Youre man played for 12 years in a United team that boasted Charlton, Law, Stiles, Stepney etc and only won 3 trophies in his ENTIRE CAREER.
He could only be arsed to pull on his countries jersey 30 odd times and was so disinterested that he couldnt even drag them to a tournament let alone perform in one. Fucking Norman Whiteside made more of an impact in the global game.
Zidane and Maradona dominated thier leagues for years and almost singlehandedly won world cups and consistently won titles.
George Best is about akin to Nani.
[/quote]

What a lot of pish.
[/quote]Theres no theory or opinion in my post Doc. Its fact after fact.
[/quote]

'Akin to Nani'. Risible bollocks.
[/quote]I must say im suprised to see a man from Northern Ireland say that....
 
I was just looking at Wikipedia about Best and two interesting things

"Maradona good, Pele better, George Best"

He played five competitive matches for Jewish Guild in South Africa (1975). That should disqualify him for top 2 on the list! 😉
 
One thing I want to say and I have no interest in doing a back-and-forth, but knock yourselves out, is....

I keep hearing all this stuff about the Brazilian League being somehow less than credible, back in the 50s/60s, and that Pele never did anything in Europe.

No Brazilian players were in Europe at that time.

They all stayed in their "dodgy" league.

They still managed to win 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.

That is all.

Pele is The God.


That really is all.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323258#msg1323258 date=1303998521]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45126.msg1323250#msg1323250 date=1303998185]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323246#msg1323246 date=1303997908]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45126.msg1323167#msg1323167 date=1303992585]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323165#msg1323165 date=1303992381]
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=45126.msg1323164#msg1323164 date=1303992209]
A few more things that need to be taken into consideration is that during the era of Best et al they didn't have the top medical staff looking after them, the teams were lacking in knowledge of what is the ideal diet for athletes, they were playing on pitches which weren't maintained to the standards modern pitches are, they played with balls that gained weight when it rained while wearing boots that also became heavier while sodden. All while earning five quid a week.
I could imagine the crying and moaning that today's top players would do if you forced them to play under those conditions.
[/quote]Thats all very true.

Zidane and Maradona are still well better.
[/quote]

;D


With theories abounding that there are something like 14 trillion alternate realities I guess the chances are that, in one of them, Maradonna and Zidane are the best in history. Just not in this reality.
[/quote]Pah. Youre man played for 12 years in a United team that boasted Charlton, Law, Stiles, Stepney etc and only won 3 trophies in his ENTIRE CAREER.
He could only be arsed to pull on his countries jersey 30 odd times and was so disinterested that he couldnt even drag them to a tournament let alone perform in one. Fucking Norman Whiteside made more of an impact in the global game.
Zidane and Maradona dominated thier leagues for years and almost singlehandedly won world cups and consistently won titles.
George Best is about akin to Nani.
[/quote]

What a lot of pish.
[/quote]Theres no theory or opinion in my post Doc. Its fact after fact.
[/quote]

The United "argument" is bollocks because - it it applies at all - it applies to all those players, including the likes of Charlton and Law. The Norn Iron "argument" is bollocks because they're international minnows who were never going to get to a tournament in his day. The Zidane and Maradona World Cups "argument" is bollocks because they had far better players around them than Best ever did for his country.

Aside from that, spot on.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=45126.msg1323270#msg1323270 date=1303999606]
One thing I want to say and I have no interest in doing a back-and-forth, but knock yourselves out, is....

I keep hearing all this stuff about the Brazilian League being somehow less than credible, back in the 50s/60s, and that Pele never did anything in Europe.

No Brazilian players were in Europe at that time.

They all stayed in their "dodgy" league.

They still managed to win 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.

That is all.

Pele is The God.


That really is all.
[/quote]

Yes, but Rooney did the first ever overhead kick.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=45126.msg1323272#msg1323272 date=1303999747]
[quote author=themn link=topic=45126.msg1323270#msg1323270 date=1303999606]
One thing I want to say and I have no interest in doing a back-and-forth, but knock yourselves out, is....

I keep hearing all this stuff about the Brazilian League being somehow less than credible, back in the 50s/60s, and that Pele never did anything in Europe.

No Brazilian players were in Europe at that time.

They all stayed in their "dodgy" league.

They still managed to win 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.

That is all.

Pele is The God.


That really is all.
[/quote]

Yes, but Rooney did the first ever overhead kick.
[/quote]

Aiiiiiieeeeeeee, the one thing I was afraid of !

DAMN YOU.....DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL !!!
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=45126.msg1323271#msg1323271 date=1303999619]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323258#msg1323258 date=1303998521]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=45126.msg1323250#msg1323250 date=1303998185]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323246#msg1323246 date=1303997908]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45126.msg1323167#msg1323167 date=1303992585]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1323165#msg1323165 date=1303992381]
[quote author=athensruairi link=topic=45126.msg1323164#msg1323164 date=1303992209]
A few more things that need to be taken into consideration is that during the era of Best et al they didn't have the top medical staff looking after them, the teams were lacking in knowledge of what is the ideal diet for athletes, they were playing on pitches which weren't maintained to the standards modern pitches are, they played with balls that gained weight when it rained while wearing boots that also became heavier while sodden. All while earning five quid a week.
I could imagine the crying and moaning that today's top players would do if you forced them to play under those conditions.
[/quote]Thats all very true.

Zidane and Maradona are still well better.
[/quote]

;D


With theories abounding that there are something like 14 trillion alternate realities I guess the chances are that, in one of them, Maradonna and Zidane are the best in history. Just not in this reality.
[/quote]Pah. Youre man played for 12 years in a United team that boasted Charlton, Law, Stiles, Stepney etc and only won 3 trophies in his ENTIRE CAREER.
He could only be arsed to pull on his countries jersey 30 odd times and was so disinterested that he couldnt even drag them to a tournament let alone perform in one. Fucking Norman Whiteside made more of an impact in the global game.
Zidane and Maradona dominated thier leagues for years and almost singlehandedly won world cups and consistently won titles.
George Best is about akin to Nani.
[/quote]

What a lot of pish.
[/quote]Theres no theory or opinion in my post Doc. Its fact after fact.
[/quote]

The United "argument" is bollocks because - it it applies at all - it applies to all those players, including the likes of Charlton and Law. The Norn Iron "argument" is bollocks because they're international minnows who were never going to get to a tournament in his day. The Zidane and Maradona World Cups "argument" is bollocks because they had far better players around them than Best ever did for his country.

Aside from that, spot on.
[/quote]YAAAAAYYYYY!!! To be honest i thought Doc was gonna ruin that for me, and i was expecting to catch a wizard on the line, but i'll take a judge.
*skips off*
 
Zidane for me.

He had it all, could take the ball past players, amazing vision and range of passing. No problem scoring goals. Played as part of a team, I think that's the thing with Zidane that made him the best.

He made his team mates better, they didn't give the ball to him and let him do the rest. They gave him the ball and gave him options as they knew if they found space he would provide the ball, anyway, anyhow. And whatever actions he decided to take would look sublime.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=45126.msg1323270#msg1323270 date=1303999606]
No Brazilian players were in Europe at that time.

They all stayed in their "dodgy" league.

They still managed to win 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.[/quote]

I don't understand how the first two lines have anything to do with the last line?

That the league was extremely dodgy didn't mean the players weren't at a fantastic level, or were fantastic when together. It just means that Pele's goalscoring records are not exactly hallal
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=45126.msg1323270#msg1323270 date=1303999606]
One thing I want to say and I have no interest in doing a back-and-forth, but knock yourselves out, is....

I keep hearing all this stuff about the Brazilian League being somehow less than credible, back in the 50s/60s, and that Pele never did anything in Europe.

No Brazilian players were in Europe at that time.

They all stayed in their "dodgy" league.

They still managed to win 3 out of 4 World Cups from 1958 to 1970.

That is all.

Pele is The God.


That really is all.
[/quote]

Pah!

You only said that because Maradona is white.

Racist.

*hides*
 
these are classic threads which usually revolve around pele and diego, but you can also bet your bottom dollar that someone will mention Best and usually do so by comparing him to diego (0ften by disparaging diego to be rather more one dimensional than he was - his performance in 1990, with half the pace and in a deep lying position to take a medicore team to the final puts this argument to rest).

for me diego is the greatest:
- record with argentina, wins world cup by himself;
- record with napoli, changes mediocre team into power houses of italian and european football (uefa cup)
- played an ara where defensive football was at its pinncable after the demise of the brazillian 82 team, notwithstanding this, he was still an unbelievable attacking force;
- he played football at club level against the best in the world on a weekly basis and still stood out;
- he could, lead, tack free kicks, dribble, pass, corners, and pass like no others.
 
I hate trying to compare players of different eras, and people are right in saying that Messi hasn't got some accomplishments that the others do but for him to be considered as worthy of the debate at the age of 23 says plenty already.
 
Yeah. if Messi were to keep this up for 10 years. or even close to that, I don't think there'll be much debate to be had.
 
I reckon people talking about the WC are right though. If he has another couple of seasons playing at even 75% of what he's done this season and then tops it off with a great WC in 2014 in Brazil, then he will be up there.
 
[quote author=red_maradona link=topic=45126.msg1323408#msg1323408 date=1304019522]
these are classic threads which usually revolve around pele and diego, but you can also bet your bottom dollar that someone will mention Best and usually do so by comparing him to diego (0ften by disparaging diego to be rather more one dimensional than he was - his performance in 1990, with half the pace and in a deep lying position to take a medicore team to the final puts this argument to rest).

for me diego is the greatest:
- record with argentina, wins world cup by himself;
- record with napoli, changes mediocre team into power houses of italian and european football (uefa cup)
- played an ara where defensive football was at its pinncable after the demise of the brazillian 82 team, notwithstanding this, he was still an unbelievable attacking force;
- he played football at club level against the best in the world on a weekly basis and still stood out;
- he could, lead, tack free kicks, dribble, pass, corners, and pass like no others.


[/quote]

Did you ever watch Best playing, Red? I mean actually playing a match rather than just a couple of clips on occasion cause that last line is just wrong. I thought Maradonna was an exceptional player - I hated him and was in awe of him at separate times in the WC against England. His performances were remarkable and consistent with Napoli - and we were able to view this because of the explosion in TV viewing in the years before his emergence.

I don't think I've ever tried to denigrate him but the reason he gets compared to Best is because his best attributes were largely those of Best. If you had watched him in games you would see that Diego was certainly not the best dribbler or passer to be seen on the football stage.


If Best had played a decade or so later then the question would be whether this player or that will ever challenge him as the greatest ever. As it is I don't need statistics such as the theory he took an average club side to greatness or that he took a national side (which was very good without him) to the final of the WC twice with one win. What I go on is the performance on the field and if you watched Best playing you'd have no need of statistics either.
 
This thread makes me LOL at how hilariously sure you all are that your respective subjective opinions are in any way verifiably correct.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=45126.msg1322754#msg1322754 date=1303937432]
Maradona for me then Zidane then Messi.
[/quote]

Maradonna then Zidane/Best/Cryuff. Dunno about Pele as it's just too old for me to have an opinion. He also can't get it up ;-)

Messi shouldn't be in there, either should any player still playing.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=45126.msg1323412#msg1323412 date=1304020727]
I hate trying to compare players of different eras, and people are right in saying that Messi hasn't got some accomplishments that the others do but for him to be considered as worthy of the debate at the age of 23 says plenty already.
[/quote]

He shouldn't be tho. I remember when people were talking about Ronaldinho like they were with Messi. Look at him now, forgotten and will never be remembered for much.
 
[quote author=RedKev link=topic=45126.msg1323598#msg1323598 date=1304055358]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=45126.msg1323412#msg1323412 date=1304020727]
I hate trying to compare players of different eras, and people are right in saying that Messi hasn't got some accomplishments that the others do but for him to be considered as worthy of the debate at the age of 23 says plenty already.
[/quote]

He shouldn't be tho. I remember when people were talking about Ronaldinho like they were with Messi. Look at him now, forgotten and will never be remembered for much.
[/quote]

Ronaldinho wasn't doing what Messi was doing ... Messi has scored almost 100 goals in the past 2 seasons, and had ~50 assists. He's doing things no one has done at top level footy ...
 
[quote author=RedKev link=topic=45126.msg1323598#msg1323598 date=1304055358]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=45126.msg1323412#msg1323412 date=1304020727]
I hate trying to compare players of different eras, and people are right in saying that Messi hasn't got some accomplishments that the others do but for him to be considered as worthy of the debate at the age of 23 says plenty already.
[/quote]

He shouldn't be tho. I remember when people were talking about Ronaldinho like they were with Messi. Look at him now, forgotten and will never be remembered for much.
[/quote]

Ronaldinho was a genius, and at his best I'd rather watch him than Messi, actually, but your point is well taken.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45126.msg1323455#msg1323455 date=1304029135]
[quote author=red_maradona link=topic=45126.msg1323408#msg1323408 date=1304019522]
these are classic threads which usually revolve around pele and diego, but you can also bet your bottom dollar that someone will mention Best and usually do so by comparing him to diego (0ften by disparaging diego to be rather more one dimensional than he was - his performance in 1990, with half the pace and in a deep lying position to take a medicore team to the final puts this argument to rest).

for me diego is the greatest:
- record with argentina, wins world cup by himself;
- record with napoli, changes mediocre team into power houses of italian and european football (uefa cup)
- played an ara where defensive football was at its pinncable after the demise of the brazillian 82 team, notwithstanding this, he was still an unbelievable attacking force;
- he played football at club level against the best in the world on a weekly basis and still stood out;
- he could, lead, tack free kicks, dribble, pass, corners, and pass like no others.


[/quote]

Did you ever watch Best playing, Red? I mean actually playing a match rather than just a couple of clips on occasion cause that last line is just wrong. I thought Maradonna was an exceptional player - I hated him and was in awe of him at separate times in the WC against England. His performances were remarkable and consistent with Napoli - and we were able to view this because of the explosion in TV viewing in the years before his emergence.

I don't think I've ever tried to denigrate him but the reason he gets compared to Best is because his best attributes were largely those of Best. If you had watched him in games you would see that Diego was certainly not the best dribbler or passer to be seen on the football stage.


If Best had played a decade or so later then the question would be whether this player or that will ever challenge him as the greatest ever. As it is I don't need statistics such as the theory he took an average club side to greatness or that he took a national side (which was very good without him) to the final of the WC twice with one win. What I go on is the performance on the field and if you watched Best playing you'd have no need of statistics either.
[/quote]

Wiz, no I never saw him play, and i wasn't directing my post at anyone in particular. granted Best was a great player, but his supporters usually highlight his lack of tv exposure in the modern era as a means to argue that he was not rated as high as he should be. however, this doesn't seem to have caused pele any problems, and best played in europe with more exposure. ultimately its always difficult to compare players from each generation as others have noted, what we can do is compare how players rated with their peers and in turn compare this level of domination. For me this is where Diego excels.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=45126.msg1323601#msg1323601 date=1304056638]
[quote author=RedKev link=topic=45126.msg1323598#msg1323598 date=1304055358]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=45126.msg1323412#msg1323412 date=1304020727]
I hate trying to compare players of different eras, and people are right in saying that Messi hasn't got some accomplishments that the others do but for him to be considered as worthy of the debate at the age of 23 says plenty already.
[/quote]

He shouldn't be tho. I remember when people were talking about Ronaldinho like they were with Messi. Look at him now, forgotten and will never be remembered for much.
[/quote]

Ronaldinho was a genius, and at his best I'd rather watch him than Messi, actually, but your point is well taken.
[/quote]

Ronaldinho is a far better 'entertainer' - he did things on the pitch we all try to do by ourselves in the garden, or with mates.
 
[quote author=red_maradona link=topic=45126.msg1323640#msg1323640 date=1304061804]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45126.msg1323455#msg1323455 date=1304029135]
[quote author=red_maradona link=topic=45126.msg1323408#msg1323408 date=1304019522]
these are classic threads which usually revolve around pele and diego, but you can also bet your bottom dollar that someone will mention Best and usually do so by comparing him to diego (0ften by disparaging diego to be rather more one dimensional than he was - his performance in 1990, with half the pace and in a deep lying position to take a medicore team to the final puts this argument to rest).

for me diego is the greatest:
- record with argentina, wins world cup by himself;
- record with napoli, changes mediocre team into power houses of italian and european football (uefa cup)
- played an ara where defensive football was at its pinncable after the demise of the brazillian 82 team, notwithstanding this, he was still an unbelievable attacking force;
- he played football at club level against the best in the world on a weekly basis and still stood out;
- he could, lead, tack free kicks, dribble, pass, corners, and pass like no others.


[/quote]

Did you ever watch Best playing, Red? I mean actually playing a match rather than just a couple of clips on occasion cause that last line is just wrong. I thought Maradonna was an exceptional player - I hated him and was in awe of him at separate times in the WC against England. His performances were remarkable and consistent with Napoli - and we were able to view this because of the explosion in TV viewing in the years before his emergence.

I don't think I've ever tried to denigrate him but the reason he gets compared to Best is because his best attributes were largely those of Best. If you had watched him in games you would see that Diego was certainly not the best dribbler or passer to be seen on the football stage.


If Best had played a decade or so later then the question would be whether this player or that will ever challenge him as the greatest ever. As it is I don't need statistics such as the theory he took an average club side to greatness or that he took a national side (which was very good without him) to the final of the WC twice with one win. What I go on is the performance on the field and if you watched Best playing you'd have no need of statistics either.
[/quote]

Wiz, no I never saw him play, and i wasn't directing my post at anyone in particular. granted Best was a great player, but his supporters usually highlight his lack of tv exposure in the modern era as a means to argue that he was not rated as high as he should be. however, this doesn't seem to have caused pele any problems, and best played in europe with more exposure. ultimately its always difficult to compare players from each generation as others have noted, what we can do is compare how players rated with their peers and in turn compare this level of domination. For me this is where Diego excels.
[/quote]

That could only provide a reliable comparison if you assume that all other players, except for the genius individuals we're comparing, are always of the same standard, which clearly isn't the case. Wiz is right - you have to look at the individual player alone if such comparisons are going to mean anything at all. On that basis Best has to win, because he had the widest range of top-level abillities.
 
In his best season Ronaldinho scored almost half what Messi has this season.

Messi is on another planet to him
 
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