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The end is nigh

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[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998761#msg998761 date=1259179157]
I was more than happy to talk about football until the Koptalk rejects started the personal insults.
[/quote]

OK. So let's get the football conversations on track then without anyone resorting to any unneccesary goading or insults. Ta.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998763#msg998763 date=1259179207]
What you characterise as boring defensive dross, may indeed at times have been boring and defensive, but it certainly wasn't dross. Any one of those previous teams of ours would still be in the CL and wouldn't have conceded the rubbish that we have this season.

I'd love if we were capable of putting some 1-0s together, and closing a game defensively. Our weakness is primarily defensive this season as far as I'm concerned, so I find it a bit ironic complaining about the manner in which previous teams won.
[/quote]

And tell me, what has changed about our defense this season?

Dross may have been too strong a word, but we certainly weren't playing the type of football that is actually enjoyable to watch. We were very effective. High-tempo, Counter attacking, pressure football. It was exciting because it was non-stop but it wasn't entertaining in the way Arsenal or Barca are entertaining.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=37418.msg998764#msg998764 date=1259179360]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998761#msg998761 date=1259179157]
I was more than happy to talk about football until the Koptalk rejects started the personal insults.
[/quote]

OK. So let's get the football conversations on track then without anyone resorting to any unneccesary goading or insults. Ta.
[/quote]

I don't have a problem with that at all mate. It's not me that has the obsession.
 
We played some lovely stuff later on last season, during and after the Real tie. It genuinely beats me how anyone could not regard it as entertaining.
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998757#msg998757 date=1259178971]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998751#msg998751 date=1259178697]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998749#msg998749 date=1259178613]
Unfortunately the teams performances and his numbers don't back up your statement.
[/quote]


Unfortunately every Liverpool supporters eyes in the entire world, except for yours, do.
[/quote]


No no, just those on this little site.

So in your opinion two goals and one assist is a good return for 17million pounds?? Yet Insua shouldn't be in the team despite more assists??

And in your opinion, this 17million rightback has significantly improved the team since his arrival?? We are better this season with him than we were last season with Arbeloa?? That's what you're saying.
[/quote]

I have found it curious to say the least why we spent so much on a RB this summer, and have posted about it, but lets say Rafa gets the sack, as you want him to. Johnson will be one of a handful of players that the incoming manager will definitely be happy to see.

Probably because he is much better at playing football than any of our other fullbacks. Our weaknesses defensively have been due to set piece defending at CB, weakness at LB, and poor passing out of defense and midfield, and while Johnson isn't rock solid, I don't think he's actually introduced any major issues.

Going forward he has been lethal in a few games, but even when he has to sit back more, he takes care of the ball really well, and keeps their flank honest due to his speed.

He's also a joy to watch. Remember when you were using attractive football as a measure of success, rather than just results? Well, Johnson has been a rare bright spot this season, and that's worth something.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37418.msg998770#msg998770 date=1259179580]
We played some lovely stuff later on last season, during and after the Real tie. It genuinely beats me how anyone could not regard it as entertaining.
[/quote]

As i already said, that was after the reigns came off. We trounced Manure at the same time. But up until February or so, it was the usual boring defensive stuff that Rafa has made his career on.
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998765#msg998765 date=1259179397]
And tell me, what has changed about our defense this season?
[/quote]

There's been a host of threads about this, and frankly it's too depressing to retread, but I don't think it's Johnson, since that's what you are implying.

[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998765#msg998765 date=1259179397]Dross may have been too strong a word, but we certainly weren't playing the type of football that is actually enjoyable to watch. We were very effective. High-tempo, Counter attacking, pressure football. It was exciting because it was non-stop but it wasn't entertaining in the way Arsenal or Barca are entertaining.
[/quote]

Well, I'm glad you are willing to tone down the rhetoric somewhat. In regards to it not being entertaining int he way Arsenal or Barca are entertaining, so what? The rest of the footballing world doesn't entertain in that way, Man United aren't as entertaining either, but lifting trophies is pretty fun.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998772#msg998772 date=1259179751]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998757#msg998757 date=1259178971]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998751#msg998751 date=1259178697]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998749#msg998749 date=1259178613]
Unfortunately the teams performances and his numbers don't back up your statement.
[/quote]


Unfortunately every Liverpool supporters eyes in the entire world, except for yours, do.
[/quote]


No no, just those on this little site.

So in your opinion two goals and one assist is a good return for 17million pounds?? Yet Insua shouldn't be in the team despite more assists??

And in your opinion, this 17million rightback has significantly improved the team since his arrival?? We are better this season with him than we were last season with Arbeloa?? That's what you're saying.
[/quote]

I have found it curious to say the least why we spent so much on a RB this summer, and have posted about it, but lets say Rafa gets the sack, as you want him to. Johnson will be one of a handful of players that the incoming manager will definitely be happy to see.

Probably because he is much better at playing football than any of our other fullbacks. Our weaknesses defensively have been due to set piece defending at CB, weakness at LB, and poor passing out of defense and midfield, and while Johnson isn't rock solid, I don't think he's actually introduced any major issues.

Going forward he has been lethal in a few games, but even when he has to sit back more, he takes care of the ball really well, and keeps their flank honest due to his speed.

He's also a joy to watch. Remember when you were using attractive football as a measure of success, rather than just results? Well, Johnson has been a rare bright spot this season, and that's worth something.
[/quote]

Johnson has been hopeless at trying to adapt to the zonal marking at set pieces. 1st goal against Brum highlights this. He's also got no idea how to read the game and his positional sense is shocking. He gets caught out of position far too often and continuously ballwatches. He's been indirectly at fault for a number of other goals this season. Carragher is having a mare of a season but he's had to spend so much time covering Johnson that he's just not doing his own job. Skrtel the same.

Johnson is excellent on the ball. But the final product is not there. Dani Alves is the only RB in the world who cost more than Johnson. Alves averages 15 or so assists a season.

Agree that a new manager will probably be happy to have Johnson and hopefully they will be tactically sound enough to use him properly, Rafa doesn't seem to be though.


All that being said, i would much rather have kept Arbeloa at RB and groomed Kelly as his successor and used the 10million cash we had to buy Kjaer and gotten Niko Krancjaer from Portsmouth for what they owed us.
 
Haha, Farky, somehow, somewhere you will pay a terrible price for what you have done

Actually, that somewhere is here. And now.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998776#msg998776 date=1259180072]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998765#msg998765 date=1259179397]
And tell me, what has changed about our defense this season?
[/quote]

There's been a host of threads about this, and frankly it's too depressing to retread, but I don't think it's Johnson, since that's what you are implying.

[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998765#msg998765 date=1259179397]Dross may have been too strong a word, but we certainly weren't playing the type of football that is actually enjoyable to watch. We were very effective. High-tempo, Counter attacking, pressure football. It was exciting because it was non-stop but it wasn't entertaining in the way Arsenal or Barca are entertaining.
[/quote]

Well, I'm glad you are willing to tone down the rhetoric somewhat. In regards to it not being entertaining int he way Arsenal or Barca are entertaining, so what? The rest of the footballing world doesn't entertain in that way, Man United aren't as entertaining either, but lifting trophies is pretty fun.
[/quote]

Johnson is what's changed. He's not half the defender that Arbeloa is. We used to have a solid defensive unit with Arbeloa-Carragher-Skrtel/Agger-Aurelio/Insua. Now we don't. Because Johnson is too attack minded and neglects his defensive duties. It's possible that it may not be his fault. It may be down to the instructions he's getting.

United are far more entertaining than we are. I'm using Arsenal as an example of what beautiful football is. You said we played beautiful football last year. The fact is we didn't but as it was a lot nicer than the previous stuff it seemed beautiful.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37418.msg998783#msg998783 date=1259180350]
Haha, Farky, somehow, somewhere you will pay a terrible price for what you have done

Actually, that somewhere is here. And now.
[/quote]

Seriously! What is your problem?? Give me your address and i'll send you a picture!
 
Arbeloa couldn't defend?? Can't agree with that. He isn't the best player in the world but he's a very solid defender.
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998795#msg998795 date=1259180944]
Arbeloa couldn't defend?? Can't agree with that. He isn't the best player in the world but he's a very solid defender.
[/quote]
He also wanted to leave. So what were we sposed to do?
 
You don't think we played some beautiful football last year? That's hardly a fact, and I couldn't disagree more.

We've had issues at LB with both Aurelio and Insua before this year, what helped us last year was also the fact that we weren't on the back foot all that much, now we spend portions of games defending, which will also test failures throughout defense. Johnson has played some solid defensive games, and seems to be settling in. It seems unfair to expect him to slot in with no issue.
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=37418.msg998799#msg998799 date=1259181309]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998795#msg998795 date=1259180944]
Arbeloa couldn't defend?? Can't agree with that. He isn't the best player in the world but he's a very solid defender.
[/quote]
He also wanted to leave. So what were we sposed to do?
[/quote]

No he didn't. He didn't ask to leave until after Rafa spent 17million on his replacement. He wanted a new contract up until that point.

His choices were, stay at Liverpool and back up Johnson for £40,000 a week or go to Madrid and back up Ramos for £40,000 a week.

Wasn't a hard choice at that point.
 
We played some wonderful stuff last season, especially when we went on that run where we were smashing in 3 or 4 goals per game.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37418.msg998800#msg998800 date=1259181388]
You don't think we played some beautiful football last year? That's hardly a fact, and I couldn't disagree more.

We've had issues at LB with both Aurelio and Insua before this year, what helped us last year was also the fact that we weren't on the back foot all that much, now we spend portions of games defending, which will also test failures throughout defense. Johnson has played some solid defensive games, and seems to be settling in. It seems unfair to expect him to slot in with no issue.
[/quote]

As i said, Arsenal and Barca play "beautiful" football. What we played was not beautiful. It was good, and far better than the norm, but not beautiful. And lets not pretend it was for the full season either. It was from Feb onwards.

Johnson's two most solid games defensively were against Manure who barely challenged him and last night against a midtable Hungarian team.

Left back was a fairly solid but unspectacular position for us last year. Very mistakes were made by either fullback last season.
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998802#msg998802 date=1259181474]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=37418.msg998799#msg998799 date=1259181309]
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998795#msg998795 date=1259180944]
Arbeloa couldn't defend?? Can't agree with that. He isn't the best player in the world but he's a very solid defender.
[/quote]
He also wanted to leave. So what were we sposed to do?
[/quote]

No he didn't. He didn't ask to leave until after Rafa spent 17million on his replacement. He wanted a new contract up until that point.

His choices were, stay at Liverpool and back up Johnson for £40,000 a week or go to Madrid and back up Ramos for £40,000 a week.

Wasn't a hard choice at that point.
[/quote]

Thats utter bullshit.
 
Arbeloa:

"It wasn't easy for me to get here because Rafa defends his interests hard," Arbeloa said

"I am the one who has the most desire to sign for Madrid".



He wanted to leave the season before, which i thought was common knowledge.
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998808#msg998808 date=1259181743]
No kid, it's fact.
[/quote]

FFS.

Another wasted post...you do realise your opinion isn't fact? Actually why am I bothering trying reason with yet another mentalist. Frankly, OOTer's like you give the rest of us a bad name...
 
I think Johnson is a wonderful player but it's not always about that. It's a sum of the parts. Spending 18 million on a right back is the sort of thing you do when your adding the finishing touches to a squad. I certainly don't think it was that wise a move given we were so short up front.
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998805#msg998805 date=1259181634]aid, Arsenal and Barca play "beautiful" football. What we played was not beautiful. It was good, and far better than the norm, but not beautiful. And lets not pretend it was for the full season either. It was from Feb onwards.

Johnson's two most solid games defensively were against Manure who barely challenged him and last night against a midtable Hungarian team.

Left back was a fairly solid but unspectacular position for us last year. Very mistakes were made by either fullback last season.
[/quote]

Dossena had a few horrific performances at fullback with the game against Hull being a prime example. I do like Aurelio, but he wasn't consistent all season long either. Arbeloa, a very solid player all in all, saw his form dip last season as well.

You're being ridiculously harsh on Johnson particularly given the fact that you're using Insua as a basis for comparison.
 
I'm only using Insua as a basis because he has been roundly criticised. He's no worse than Johnson defensively and produced more in attack. Johnson is clearly a better player but he has not been all that much better than insua this year, yet Insua gets ripped and Johnson gets praised to the sky.

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=37418.msg998827#msg998827 date=1259182651]

FFS.

Another wasted post...you do realise your opinion isn't fact? Actually why am I bothering trying reason with yet another mentalist. Frankly, OOTer's like you give the rest of us a bad name...


[/quote]

It's not my opinion that Arbeloa wanted to stay and then left because he'd been replaced. It is a fact.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=37418.msg998824#msg998824 date=1259182517]
Arbeloa:

"It wasn't easy for me to get here because Rafa defends his interests hard," Arbeloa said

"I am the one who has the most desire to sign for Madrid".



He wanted to leave the season before, which i thought was common knowledge.


[/quote]

A quote without actually giving the source?? Please!

Arbeloa was talking about a new contract in May!
 
[quote author=Doc_Rule link=topic=37418.msg998847#msg998847 date=1259183262]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=37418.msg998824#msg998824 date=1259182517]
Arbeloa:

"It wasn't easy for me to get here because Rafa defends his interests hard," Arbeloa said

"I am the one who has the most desire to sign for Madrid".



He wanted to leave the season before, which i thought was common knowledge.


[/quote]

because players never do that. I remember michael owen talking about signing a new contract in july one year, and he stayed thank god!

*someone whispers in his ear*

oh crumbs

A quote without actually giving the source?? Please!

Arbeloa was talking about a new contract in May!
[/quote]
 
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