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The Derby: Pre-match

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studsup said:
I think that doesn't sit with Rodgers because Gerrard doesn't have the legs and energy to press hard enough anymore to win possession either when defending or for launching an attack. In his first season, Rodgers played Gerrard in Henderson's current position, but the complaint then was that he was letting opponents cut through midfield like a hot knife through butter, especially during transitions from attack to defence. Typical of that was the game away against Arsenal when he lost the ball up field and didn't (or couldn't) make any effort to chase back and regain it, resulting in Cazorla's goal.

That is why I find the suggestion from folks to push Gerrard further up quite puzzling. It's just a transference of the pressure in my opinion - whereas right now his dereliction of duty means the centre backs get it in the neck, him playing further up just opens us up to more (and perhaps more lethal) counter attacks from opponents as he's ineffective as a first line of defence further up the field.

If I'm not wrong, of the 11 goals we've conceded so far, only 2 of them came from counters (one against Ludogorets, one against Boro), whereas we seemed to be regularly at the mercy of those raids in Rodgers' first season.

I think we're at the stage where it is not about shifting him around anymore, but about setting and enforcing expectations with him. If Rodgers isn't doing that for whatever reason, you can shift Gerrard anywhere and all we're doing is transferring the problem from one place to another. For what it's worth, I'd rather him play where he is now than further up, because at least Henderson and Allen / Lallana, plus Sterling or Coutinho (when he's having a good game) provide a good enough shield up front. Gerrard further up probably will just become someone that opponents will exploit again.
Click to expand...

I want to use him as a striker in the diamond formation sparingly. He can still finish, imo. Sport is a meritocracy.
 
Nah, I think he'll score. But I have a really bad feeling that we're gonna lose this one.
Set pieces will be a bitch. Again.
 
I'd like to see Henderson in front of the back 2, he has the energy, strength & attitude for it and between the three of them they should be able handle Mirallas, Naismith & Lukaku. This would move Stevie(he's not gonna be dropped) up to CM where he can reduce his 'Hollywoods' from 50 to 30 meters and increase their effect. The likes of Osman & Barry are not any fitter or younger than Stevie so with help from Lallana and Sterling covering back we should be able to control the centre as both Swansea and C.Palace have recently done against them, they are shit at the moment. As an attacking unit the line-ups underneath should cause Evertons ancient and the Leagues worst defence a horrible(but funny) amount of problems. 5-0!!! Sorted, call Mr. Rodgers.​
Mignolet​
Lovren Sahko​
Manquillo Moreno​
Henderson​
Gerrard Lallana​
Sterling Suso​
Ballotelli​
​
Alternatively:​
Mignolet​
Lovren Sahko​
Manquillo Moreno​
Henderson​
Gerrard Lallana​
Sterling​
Sturridge Ballotelli​
​
 
I can't think of any midfield arrangement I'd be happy with given the players available (I'm guessing Allen and Can are still out for the forseeable).

I'd be wary of playing too many attackers against Everton and leaving Henderson, who may not be 100%, on his own with Gerrard. Not on current form (of the team) anyways. Last season I'd be confident we could start with a side full of attackers and blitz our opponents. The last couple games teams seem to be doing the same to us!
 
Why would anyone want Gerrard playing further up? For the life of me I can't see even a shred of logic here. He is not going to score goals from open play, his shot is gone and we have 4-5 players who have more guile and are generally better than him as a #10/playmaker. He is also not going to press when we lose the ball, so in addition to Balotelli you will have another player who doesn't press – so this whole side of our game will be gone, guaranteed. What am I missing?

In my opinion, at this point either Gerrard plays in his current position or he shouldn't play. There is no position on the pitch where he would be better or more useful to the team than the one he is playing now. And [I know someone will say "you had me until the last sentence", but I'll say it anyway] I insist that Gerrard is not playing all that poorly in his current role, sure there is some drop in performance compared to 2nd half of last season, but it's nothing catastrophic, like some of you are making it sound. Gerrard at DM is NOT our biggest problem.
 
Gave you a like despite the fact that you had me until the last sentence.

edit: Okay, it's not the biggest, but one of a few big problems this season so far. I don't know if we could rank them in terms of severity.
 
rurikbird said:
Why would anyone want Gerrard playing further up? For the life of me I can't see even a shred of logic here. He is not going to score goals from open play, his shot is gone and we have 4-5 players who have more guile and are generally better than him as a #10/playmaker. He is also not going to press when we lose the ball, so in addition to Balotelli you will have another player who doesn't press – so this whole side of our game will be gone, guaranteed. What am I missing?

In my opinion, at this point either Gerrard plays in his current position or he shouldn't play. There is no position on the pitch where he would be better or more useful to the team than the one he is playing now. And [I know someone will say "you had me until the last sentence", but I'll say it anyway] I insist that Gerrard is all that poorly in his current role, there is some drop in performance compared to 2nd half of last season, but it's nothing catastrophic, like some of you are making it sound. Gerrard at DM is NOT our biggest problem.
Click to expand...

I actually think it is one of the biggest problems, and it has an effect on one of the other big problems, poor play from the CBs. Stewart fucking Downing destroyed him last week because in that position he is too easy to man mark and he has to stay in the position. Also, you know,... he doesn't defend well right in front of our box. I would never play Gerrard with Balo or Rambo. I would aim to have Gerrard use his clever movement and still exceptional technique in and around the box to find space and have shots from around 12 yards out in tandem with either Sturridge, Sterling, or Borini. See i know he can still dispatch from 12 yards out with alarming regularity.
 
So it sounds like Suso is starting on Saturday. Rodgers is usually pretty transparent in his pre-match interviews; when he made a point about how some young players such as Sterling need to be rested and managed etc you could bet your house Raheem was going to be rested. Now after what he said about Suso, especially the bit where he mentioned that he already has Derby experience, I would be surprised if the young Jesus is not in the starting 11. Makes sense too, the team overall is terribly short on confidence and Suso must be buzzing from his basically game-winning performance the other day.

On the other hand, sounds like Sturridge will make the bench at best. So I'm guessing we will see 4-3-3 this time with Sterling on one wing and Suso on the other with Lallana-Henderson-Gerrard in CM. This could be interesting; I think Lallana's workrate is sufficient to play at CM. And Gerrard will hopefully raise his game for the derby, so will should not get overrun in midfield with this system.

--------------Balotelli-----------
Sterling---------------------Suso
--------Lallana----Hendo-------
--------------Gerrard--------------
Moreno---------------Manquillo
--------Lovren----Skrtel---------
--------------Mignolet------------

My biggest worry is Balotelli getting an early red card. If anyone can get a rush of blood to the head from the derby atmosphere, it's him. In fact I would even consider starting Borini alone up front if Sturridge is not ready.
 
rurikbird said:
So it sounds like Suso is starting on Saturday. Rodgers is usually pretty transparent in his pre-match interviews; when he made a point about how some young players such as Sterling need to be rested and managed etc you could bet your house Raheem was going to be rested. Now after what he said about Suso, especially the bit where he mentioned that he already has Derby experience, I would be surprised if the young Jesus is not in the starting 11. Makes sense too, the team overall is terribly short on confidence and Suso must be buzzing from his basically game-winning performance the other day.

On the other hand, sounds like Sturridge will make the bench at best. So I'm guessing we will see 4-3-3 this time with Sterling on one wing and Suso on the other with Lallana-Henderson-Gerrard in CM. This could be interesting; I think Lallana's workrate is sufficient to play at CM. And Gerrard will hopefully raise his game for the derby, so will should not get overrun in midfield with this system.

--------------Balotelli-----------
Sterling---------------------Suso
--------Lallana----Hendo-------
--------------Gerrard--------------
Moreno---------------Manquillo
--------Lovren----Skrtel---------
--------------Mignolet------------

My biggest worry is Balotelli getting an early red card. If anyone can get a rush of blood to the head from the derby atmosphere, it's him. In fact I would even consider starting Borini alone up front if Sturridge is not ready.
Click to expand...


Balotelli in goal and Ming up front eh ? I haven't seen anyone reverse the positions like that in quite a while, bar you and Roadred on this page, it just doesn't feel right. A bit like Brad Davis walking anti-clockwise around the wheel in Midnight Express 😉

I still feel we play the midfield diamond better than 4-3-3 which also mirrors Sterling where Suarez used to be (and will relieve the pressure from their CBs on Balo giving him more space too) enabling us to have more potency on the break, something we are sorely missing without Sturridge (who is surely on the bench on best). I really can't decide whether Suso or Coutinho would be best for this match as I'm sure Everton will have the lion's share of possession.

----------------------------Mignolet
Manquillo--------Skrtel----------Lovren-----Moreno
----------------------------Gerrard
---------Henderson---------------------Lallana
-----------------------------Suso
--------------Sterling---------------Balotelli
 
rurikbird said:
Why would anyone want Gerrard playing further up? For the life of me I can't see even a shred of logic here. He is not going to score goals from open play, his shot is gone and we have 4-5 players who have more guile and are generally better than him as a #10/playmaker. He is also not going to press when we lose the ball, so in addition to Balotelli you will have another player who doesn't press – so this whole side of our game will be gone, guaranteed. What am I missing?

In my opinion, at this point either Gerrard plays in his current position or he shouldn't play. There is no position on the pitch where he would be better or more useful to the team than the one he is playing now. And [I know someone will say "you had me until the last sentence", but I'll say it anyway] I insist that Gerrard is not playing all that poorly in his current role, sure there is some drop in performance compared to 2nd half of last season, but it's nothing catastrophic, like some of you are making it sound. Gerrard at DM is NOT our biggest problem.
Click to expand...

No one is really expecting him to bang them in from distance though. It's easier to press and defend from the front than it is with acres of space to cover from the deep midfield position. And his passing play, because we play such an advanced forward line, is pretty much demanding the longball game from him. When you're covering ground AND trying to put your boot through the ball throughout the game to achieve game changing, 30-40 yard passes, it takes it's toll. That's why we see so many of them not coming off. At his age he should be preserving energy and we should be utlising that to get the best from him, instead he's playing a defensive role which asks him to cover a wide defensive line and a midfield zone and to then have the stamina to play a direct ball out from the back with precision. It's not happening and despite what people think about the defense, his part in that is crucial to us and it's costing us.

I hate to use a cliche, but you can't teach an old dog new tricks. He is one of the most versatile players that we have and given time he'd probably grow more and more into the role, but we and he don't really have time or patience on our side to do that. And we've gotten the best from him when he's had the shackles taken off him, because his impulse is to wander.

I'd rather see him up top, even if only in more fleeting, carefully picked appearances, like Lampard, getting amongst the thick of it. He doesn't have to be able to blast them in from long range, like I said about age and stamina, he doesn't have that anymore, but he does have the ability to pick a pass, to be a threat from setpieces and to grab the odd goal.
 
rurikbird said:
Why would anyone want Gerrard playing further up? For the life of me I can't see even a shred of logic here. He is not going to score goals from open play, his shot is gone and we have 4-5 players who have more guile and are generally better than him as a #10/playmaker. He is also not going to press when we lose the ball, so in addition to Balotelli you will have another player who doesn't press – so this whole side of our game will be gone, guaranteed. What am I missing?

In my opinion, at this point either Gerrard plays in his current position or he shouldn't play. There is no position on the pitch where he would be better or more useful to the team than the one he is playing now. And [I know someone will say "you had me until the last sentence", but I'll say it anyway] I insist that Gerrard is not playing all that poorly in his current role, sure there is some drop in performance compared to 2nd half of last season, but it's nothing catastrophic, like some of you are making it sound. Gerrard at DM is NOT our biggest problem.
Click to expand...

Because he is not going to dropped and as Captain has been responsible or partly responsible for too many gaps and errors which have lead to goals against us, as stated above even Stewart Downing bettered him, his terrible header back to Mignolet recently which could have cost us a goal, he bollocked Ming...???.
There was a match last season(can't remember the oppo') where he and Flanno were covering an attack on our left wing, Flanno followed the run of their winger, Gerrard stood still instead of closing the gap and the ball carrier sprinted through on goal, he bollocked Flanno. Sahkos header to no one at West Ham, Sahko should have looked but Gerrard should have been there. There has been many more occasions and they are getting more frequent, the area in front of our CBs is a hive of opposition activity these days, the long balls aren't going into our box so much as into where Gerrards area because he's been found out.
As said he is not going to dropped so his lack of stamina can be less dangerous 20 meters up the pitch because just now I, and I'm sure 1 or 2 others get a panic on anytime has a run at our defence. It hasn't clicked this season yet, something has to change. His thigh muscle separated from his bone a couple of years ago which almost put an end to his career, it does seem to have put an end to his 40 meter rockets into the net but he can still drop it on a penny from 40 meters for the like of Sturridge & Sterling which I would like to see Mr. Rodgers try out.
Anyway the first few words of my previous post were 'I'd like to see', I doubt it's gonna happen.

Edit: It's also a suggestion for the derby against a piss poor Everton with a piss poor midfield, I wouldn't put him up against Toure and the like.
 
Frogfish said:
Balotelli in goal and Ming up front eh ? I haven't seen anyone reverse the positions like that in quite a while, bar you and Roadred on this page, it just doesn't feel right. A bit like Brad Davis walking anti-clockwise around the wheel in Midnight Express 😉

I still feel we play the midfield diamond better than 4-3-3 which also mirrors Sterling where Suarez used to be (and will relieve the pressure from their CBs on Balo giving him more space too) enabling us to have more potency on the break, something we are sorely missing without Sturridge (who is surely on the bench on best). I really can't decide whether Suso or Coutinho would be best for this match as I'm sure Everton will have the lion's share of possession.

----------------------------Mignolet
Manquillo--------Skrtel----------Lovren-----Moreno
----------------------------Gerrard
---------Henderson---------------------Lallana
-----------------------------Suso
--------------Sterling---------------Balotelli
Click to expand...

I took a sicky today, so I thought I'd cause a bit of hassle with my spare time, 'idle hands..........'
 
studsup said:
I think that doesn't sit with Rodgers because Gerrard doesn't have the legs and energy to press hard enough anymore to win possession either when defending or for launching an attack. In his first season, Rodgers played Gerrard in Henderson's current position, but the complaint then was that he was letting opponents cut through midfield like a hot knife through butter, especially during transitions from attack to defence. Typical of that was the game away against Arsenal when he lost the ball up field and didn't (or couldn't) make any effort to chase back and regain it, resulting in Cazorla's goal.

That is why I find the suggestion from folks to push Gerrard further up quite puzzling. It's just a transference of the pressure in my opinion - whereas right now his dereliction of duty means the centre backs get it in the neck, him playing further up just opens us up to more (and perhaps more lethal) counter attacks from opponents as he's ineffective as a first line of defence further up the field.

If I'm not wrong, of the 11 goals we've conceded so far, only 2 of them came from counters (one against Ludogorets, one against Boro), whereas we seemed to be regularly at the mercy of those raids in Rodgers' first season.

I think we're at the stage where it is not about shifting him around anymore, but about setting and enforcing expectations with him. If Rodgers isn't doing that for whatever reason, you can shift Gerrard anywhere and all we're doing is transferring the problem from one place to another. For what it's worth, I'd rather him play where he is now than further up, because at least Henderson and Allen / Lallana, plus Sterling or Coutinho (when he's having a good game) provide a good enough shield up front. Gerrard further up probably will just become someone that opponents will exploit again.
Click to expand...



This is nonsense.
 
------------------Mignolet---------------
Manquillo-Skrtel--Lovren--Moreno
-----------------Hendo------------------
---------Gerrard----Lallana-----------
-Suso-------Sterling-------Coutinho
 
I have a good feeling about this game (as opposed to the feeling of utter dread I had last week)

I was liking the look of Lallana in midweek. Gerrard always steps up for the derby and christ knows he needs to find some form. I imagine the critism he rightly got this week would have stung and he'll have a point to prove. Sterling is well Sterling. The whole group will get a boost when they see Studge back in the squad. Balloteli will thrive in the atmosphere. I imagine he'll score if I'm honest.

In a strange way it's a good time to face Everton. They are also out of form but play a style of football that Rodgers is very ept at beating and of course it's at Anfield. 3 points - Lovely.
 
Honestly, it's clear we still need some World Class Striking talent - it brings out the best in the supporting cast, which of course feels right now like the who front 4/5 who are not on form. Oh dear, am I becoming repetitive like "he who may be banned soon"...
 
mark1975 said:
------------------Mignolet---------------
Manquillo-Skrtel--Lovren--Moreno
-----------------Hendo------------------
---------Gerrard----Lallana-----------
-Suso-------Sterling-------Coutinho
Click to expand...


Hmmm Curious. Couple of quick questions for you Mark

Why no Balloteli?
Do you not think Enrique warrents a start considering how well (imo) he played in midweek?
Sterling leading the line? Is that his best position?
Suso - A bit soon to be whacking him straight in the first XI you think? One swallow does not a summer make - And all that.
 
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