The balancing act

[mark1975]

I really don't want this to turn into a "Rodgers is a cunt" thread, I was just thinking about the sackings of the backroom staff and the look for replacements.

The crux of this, as we'd imagine, would be down to our well documented criticisms - no fight, no organisation and a poor defensive set up.

So what are we looking to bring in? I'm not particularly arsed about naming names, we'd all like someone like Clarke for instance, but what are we hoping will be implemented?

I know it's a fairly rudimentary line of thinking and it's something that could see Rodgers system collapse more catastrophically than it did last season, if he doesn't meet with fresh ideas halfway. But I personally want (and I'm sure most on here do) to see someone come in and organise a back four with a protective midfield. Not overly protect ala two banks of four like we often saw under Houllier and Rafa, but someone who will have us able to not only go for the jugular, but to play clever smash and grabs, able to make us keep it tight in big games, or to shut up shop when games are won and they need to be closed out.

Could this work? Is Rodgers system so heavily reliant on fullbacks on the halfway line, centre backs 20-30 yards apart, a ball playing deep midfielder as opposed to an orthodox defensive one? Teams are clued to our system now, it admittedly didn't take much, press high when we're in possession, hit with pace and numbers when we lose possession. We collapse.

I guess what I'm asking is, can we revert to a more basic, standard flat defense that works well as a unit and still continue with the same level of attacking verve we saw for 18 months (assuming we get our attack back on track)? Is there going to be a huge level of compromise that could be too much for a team already shy of the 50 odd extra goals that saw us challenge? Or is it a coming together that could potentially work well?

Say what you like about Rodgers, but after he brought in Sturridge and Coutinho, we played some wonderful attacking football and I still think on our day we can be a thoroughly effective passing/attacking side. The style is reliant on two or three of the right attackers, but it's something that we're capable of achieving again, I just wonder whether the knock on effect of tightning up might see Rodger struggle to play with the attacking numbers he prefers.

One side to this, I guess, is that many have said we're more of a counterattacking side. Well this could work in our favour in many games, but I think the crux of our problem is our inability to control games, so we need to start dominating possession in a different way, by bossing the opposition, rather than trying to pass them and ourselves into submission.

 

[Mors]

I don't think under rodgers we will ever have a solid defence or be able to defend properly. It's in his mentality that if we have possession 100% of the time, or only let them have the ball in their own half, then why should we be worried about them attacking us. That and like you said, the fullbacks spend most of their time as wingers in the other half.
I don't see a defensive coach coming in, or anyone that is going to organise the defence. He could bring in Baresi and Maldini, and he'd still tell them that their coaching focus was ball possession and attacking.
We'll just have to live with it, accept we're a Kevin Keegan style team, and just hope that we get enough of the right sort of players in that can score more than we concede.

 

[keniget]

But I personally want (and I'm sure most on here do) to see someone come in and organise a back four with a protective midfield. Not overly protect ala two banks of four like we often saw under Houllier and Rafa, but someone who will have us able to not only go for the jugular, but to play clever smash and grabs, able to make us keep it tight in big games, or to shut up shop when games are won and they need to be closed out.

I don't know that that's realistic under Rodgers. He just doesn't seem to want to set his teams up that way probably just as you wouldn't see Guardiola reverting to a flat back four with a set of defensive midfielders shielding them.

It often does seem as though Rodgers is aping Guardiola - the splitting of the central defenders with the fullbacks high, the holding midfielder who is very much there for his ability on the ball who drops in between them and so forth.

And in the same way that Barcelona and Guardiola have found themselves susceptible to gegenpressing (when up against the very best), our opponents worked out quickly that we too struggle against it... the problem being that individually and collectively we are far worse than Barca and therefore even moderately good teams can cause us a lot of damage.

The only real way out of this malaise under Rodgers (in my view) is to put together a world class attacking unit and to get someone with more nous playing in that holding position.

 

[cloggypop]

Totally agree with keniget there. He defo rips off/is heavily influenced by/has the same influences as Pep.

 

[jexykrodic]

Previous success at our club has been built on being difficult to breakdown and we should prioritize this. An energetic and talented DM should be a priority to sit in front of our defence.

Expansive football can happen when you have the forwards talented enough to produce it. We don't have these players at present especially if we commit suicide by selling the better ones we have.

We should be pragmatic like Chelsea and not attempt formations that leave us exposed as soon as the ball breaks to the opposition. Chelsea are masters at waiting for the opportunity whereas we wilt if the breakthrough doesn't come early.

At the end of it all you must have talent, while you're waiting to assemble it you must be difficult to beat. No point having a philosophy if you don't have the players to do it.

 

[Insignificance]

It is a little bit the same as i.e Villas Boas. His idea is that the fullbacks uncoordinatingly push forward, leaving big acres of open Spaces behind them. It might work fine in a low press League in Portugal when you have a superior team. But it doesnt work in PL where all teams goes straight to the troath.

Also there seem to be an understanding in Rodgers Liverpool team that we are the superior team that will have the majority of possesion, hence we do not need to dig into the fight. To many times we look totally toothless when so called minor teams gives Our midfield a physical beating. It happens to often for it to be players just having a day off. They seem not to mentally prepared for the fight. Last season is a good example. In summer practice matches we were dominant cause the other teams didn't give a fuck about the result. But when the League started we thought that that soft attitude would meet us week in and week out and we looked perplex when the others started press us aggressive and had nothing to offer back.

 

[gkmacca]

It's an interesting point, Mark. I feel the best chance is to get a second coach in who can convince Rodgers it's fine-tuning rather than a major revision. Whatever one feels about the way Rodgers likes to play, it surely ought to be evident, even on its own terms, that it's not working well enough. The building from the keeper out through the back four is tortuously slow and predictable, for a start. So a coach coming in needs first to reassure Rodgers that he buys into the system, and then suggests ways to improve it. And I think there's a logic there that can be followed.

After all, people (myself included) say other clubs have 'worked us out,' but to some extent we've all worked each other out. We all know how to play, say, Chelski. It's just that they're good enough, usually, to still overcome you. The same might be said of us (apart from, you know, the being too good bit). The fact that, say, Neil Lennon and Garry Monk worked out a way to play us shouldn't have meant that it worked as well as it did. THAT came down to poor discipline, poor mentality and poor execution, rather than the system as such.

What the past two seasons have shown us is that Rodgers' style can get us close to the top when it's executed by fast, confident, committed players who work well as a unit, and it can get us miles away from the top when executed by slow, hesitant, cowardly dullards.

There's no logical reason why a new coach can't come in and at least get the players fitter, sharper and more disciplined, and improve the organisation at the back, and speed up the way the ball is moved out of defence, without necessarily abandoning Rodgers' sacred system. Then, at least, we'll see what its real potential is like.

But they need the personnel. If you don't have a genuinely dangerous striker, or pair of strikers, and a commanding midfielder, and positionally aware and disciplined defenders, then it's more likely to remain a shambles.

 

[mark1975]

I don't know that that's realistic under Rodgers. He just doesn't seem to want to set his teams up that way much in the same way you probably wouldn't see Guardiola revert to a flat back four with a set of defensive midfielders shielding them.

It often does seem as Rodgers is aping Guardiola - the splitting of the central defenders with the fullbacks high, the holding midfielder who is very much there for his ability on the ball who drops in between them and so forth.

And in the same way that Barcelona and Guardiola have found themselves susceptible to gegenpressing (when up against the very best), our opponents worked out quickly that we too struggle against it... the problem being that individually and collectively we are far worse than Barca and therefore even moderately good teams can cause us a lot of damage.

The only real way out of this malaise under Rodgers (in my view) is to put together a world class attacking unit and to get someone with more nous playing in that holding position.

Yeah I agree with all of that, I guess my point/question is about what the club are trying to achieve by changing the set up?

To my mind, when this was agreed/enforced, that had to be on the understanding that the present tactical setup had been exposed and needed addressing. I really hope that's the case and it's not a decision that's been born out of our apparent lack of discipline/desire in the latter months of the season. Because it's a bit chicken/egg, which prompted which? Did the lack of tactical nous see the rot set it, or did players just not give a fuck? Personally I think it was a combination of lack of attacking talent = tactics not working = players heads gradually dropped across the course of the season.

If we only address one, we're not really solving the issue, we're just swapping personnel to nod and say yes to the same approach.

 

[tony]

I don't know that that's realistic under Rodgers. He just doesn't seem to want to set his teams up that way probably just as you wouldn't see Guardiola reverting to a flat back four with a set of defensive midfielders shielding them.

It often does seem as though Rodgers is aping Guardiola - the splitting of the central defenders with the fullbacks high, the holding midfielder who is very much there for his ability on the ball who drops in between them and so forth.

And in the same way that Barcelona and Guardiola have found themselves susceptible to gegenpressing (when up against the very best), our opponents worked out quickly that we too struggle against it... the problem being that individually and collectively we are far worse than Barca and therefore even moderately good teams can cause us a lot of damage.

The only real way out of this malaise under Rodgers (in my view) is to put together a world class attacking unit and to get someone with more nous playing in that holding position.

Spot on - if we sorted a plan B when we are being aggressively pressed it would be a start.

 

[gkmacca]

I don't think it's a case of having multiple plans. It's more to do with cohesion and fluidity. If you look back at the title winning Liverpool sides of the past, over the course of an average 90 minutes, you'll struggle to work out one formation and one 'plan'. Because the players understood each other so well, and were all technically and positionally sound, they could just adapt to the needs that presented themselves. A major problem last season was the lack of belief in the system, and the lack of cohesion, with great chasms between the attackers, midfielders and defenders. It was three mini teams masquerading as one big one. If Rodgers is to have any chance with his preferred style, there needs to be far less rigidity and far more willingness (and ability) to anticipate and respond as a unit.

 

[Oncy]

The annoying thing is we have needed just fine tuning for years. Now it feels like we need a bloody revamp.
🙁

 

[mark1975]

It's an interesting point, Mark. I feel the best chance is to get a second coach in who can convince Rodgers it's fine-tuning rather than a major revision. Whatever one feels about the way Rodgers likes to play, it surely ought to be evident, even on its own terms, that it's not working well enough. The building from the keeper out through the back four is tortuously slow and predictable, for a start. So a coach coming in needs first to reassure Rodgers that he buys into the system, and then suggests ways to improve it. And I think there's a logic there that can be followed.

After all, people (myself included) say other clubs have 'worked us out,' but to some extent we've all worked each other out. We all know how to play, say, Chelski. It's just that they're good enough, usually, to still overcome you. The same might be said of us (apart from, you know, the being too good bit). The fact that, say, Neil Lennon and Garry Monk worked out a way to play us shouldn't have meant that it worked as well as it did. THAT came down to poor discipline, poor mentality and poor execution, rather than the system as such.

What the past two seasons have shown us is that Rodgers' style can get us close to the top when it's executed by fast, confident, committed players who work well as a unit, and it can get us miles away from the top when executed by slow, hesitant, cowardly dullards.

There's no logical reason why a new coach can't come in and at least get the players fitter, sharper and more disciplined, and improve the organisation at the back, and speed up the way the ball is moved out of defence, without necessarily abandoning Rodgers' sacred system. Then, at least, we'll see what its real potential is like.

But they need the personnel. If you don't have a genuinely dangerous striker, or pair of strikers, and a commanding midfielder, and positionally aware and disciplined defenders, then it's more likely to remain a shambles.

Yeah, I think that's more like what I was getting at, I think that's alot more feasible than expecting wholesale changes or for Rodgers to accept a big compromise on his ideals.

 

[kingjulian]

Good thread...positive contributions.

One of the few threads we have had recently that has not been a total waste of time.

 

[6TimesaRed]

The annoying thing is we have needed just fine tuning for years. Now it feels like we need a bloody revamp.
🙁

Yep.. We are always chasing our own tail..

We are on the cusp of achieving something.. A key player leaves..

We fail to adequately replace and within time and then rebuilding program goes to shit..

It's all becoming too a familiar story with Liverpool FC..

Problem is... Each time it happens, we fall even further behind..

 

[mark1975]

We don't really, though I get we're in danger of doing so at some point. When Hodge and then Dalglish left, people talked about us being 5 years behind, never challenging for another 10 years, etc. People did it when Rafa started with us. It's football, you never know, No one predicted the turn around the season before last, or the subsequent turnaround last season.

 

[6TimesaRed]

We don't really, though I get we're in danger of doing so at some point. When Hodge and then Dalglish left, people talked about us being 5 years behind, never challenging for another 10 years, etc. People did it when Rafa started with us. It's football, you never know, No one predicted the turn around the season before last, or the subsequent turnaround last season.

But like I said.. The club unable to cope with change it seems..

A vital cog gets taken out and some how we fuck it up

Money aside... That's the difference between us and the other teams competing for the Top 4..

If we had managed to maintain our top 4 status over the years, in the same way Arsenal have always managed to do.. It might be different as we would be a more attractive proposition for better players..

 

[mark1975]

But like I said.. The club unable to cope with change it seems..

A vital cog gets taken out and some how we fuck it up

Money aside... That's the difference between us and the other teams competing for the Top 4..

If we had managed to maintain our top 4 status over the years, in the same way Arsenal have always managed to do.. It might be different as we would be a more attractive proposition for better players..

You can't have it both ways though, you're the first to say we need to change this and that after things go wrong, yet then point to Arsenal as a barometer, the team with the longest serving manager in the league and probably one of the most stable and well set.

 

[6TimesaRed]

You can't have it both ways though, you're the first to say we need to change this and that after things go wrong, yet then point to Arsenal as a barometer, the team with the longest serving manager in the league and probably one of the most stable and well set.

The club have stuck with him because he has won things.. and more importantly consistantly gets the club in the champions league, even when they lost key players and on limited budgets...

Sadly that is the bench mark of success nowadays.. Champions League football..

There is no doubt about it... if Rafa (or any manager) managed that and maintained it.. he would still be here now..

 

[mark1975]

The club have stuck with him because he has won things.. and more importantly consistantly gets the club in the champions league, even when they lost key players and on limited budgets...

Sadly that is the bench mark of success nowadays.. Champions League football..

There is no doubt about it... if Rafa (or any manager) managed that and maintained it.. he would still be here now..

Yeah of course they would, but that's kind of my point, we haven't really since Rafa given anyone long enough to do so. Rodgers could be forgiven for the first year because we were already playing catch up, his second season was great, his third a disaster. He deserves another season to get back on track, otherwise we will always be playing catch up, if we continue to chop and change regularly.

 

[keniget]

The annoying thing is we have needed just fine tuning for years. Now it feels like we need a bloody revamp.
🙁

I think we actually have a fairly solid foundation to build on. The concern I have is that I have no confidence in the people doing the building.