The actual footy is back on! (v Arsenal)

[rurikbird]

On the old Covid point: our new LB was spitting like a trooper on the (spaced) bench today. Why he felt the need to repeatedly expel great globs of phlegm when he was sitting down just watching is a mystery. And the whole hygiene guidance info doesn't seem to be seeping in as far as any sport is concerned - same in cricket as in footie, the players seem to think that so long as they start with an elbow or fist pump they're then able to shake hands, pat faces, hug, rub necks, etc etc. What's the point? If they're not going to bother, then don't go through that ritual at all!

I see this all the time outside football. It's security theater – people are so prone to getting used to mindless rituals that mean fuck all in terms of actual safety. At least all of our players came from vacations safely, which cannot be said for some other rival clubs...

 

[MaBigTip]

I see this all the time outside football. It's security theater – people are so prone to getting used to mindless rituals that mean fuck all in terms of actual safety. At least all of our players came from vacations safely, which cannot be said for some other rival clubs...

And what exactly do you think has happened to Trent?

 

[rurikbird]

And what exactly do you think has happened to Trent?

Oh... you think he got it?

 

[MaBigTip]

Oh... you think he got it?

Yeah, 100%. Undisclosed injury, confident he'll be back for the real games, 2 weeks out with no contact with the squad... even watching the game yesterday from his home. Matip and Hendo have been on the sidelines at training, Trent is MIA.

 

[rurikbird]

Yeah, 100%. Undisclosed injury, confident he'll be back for the real games, 2 weeks out with no contact with the squad... even watching the game yesterday from his home. Matip and Hendo have been on the sidelines at training, Trent is MIA.

Sounds like a 14-day quarantine, not actually having the virus, which could be unpredictable and longer.

 

[Hansern]

Sounds like a 14-day quarantine, not actually having the virus, which could be unpredictable and longer.

And he will be back in full training tomorrow, as confirmed by the journos. Doubt he would have been if he was indeed infected with the virus.

 

[Kay Age El]

Kasper Dolberg scored twice tonight 😉

If only Mane learned to finish like this;



Obv joking Mane is boss but I do think we lack a clinical finisher in the squad.

Bonusinfo; Nobody has scored more goals in Ligue 1 in 2020 than Dolberg.

 

[Insignificance]

If only Mane learned to finish like this;



Obv joking Mane is boss but I do think we lack a clinical finisher in the squad.

Bonusinfo; Nobody has scored more goals in Ligue 1 in 2020 than Dolberg.

Maybe we should have a closer look at Nobody then?

 

[Frogfish]

On the positive side, the coaching staff seem to have noted that we need to adapt tactically. They know that other teams have worked out systems and strategies to block the full backs and go deep and frustrate the midfield, and apparently Pep has been working on various tweaks to deal with this. Good. But I suspect even they would agree that we also need some new players as well. Klopp is a remarkable character, and one of the remarkable things is his ability to get the big picture and understand how the whole club functions - it's probably true that he could be a great CEO in all kinds of companies - so he instinctively knows not to just whine when he can't get what, as manager, he wants in certain financial situations. But I do think this is the kind of time when he needs to, not so much go 'Full Rafa,' but at least discreetly let FSG know that we REALLY can't just expect him to keep wringing every last drop from the current squad. His own reputation is on the line as well as the club's - it's just not acceptable to pretend that there haven't been signs, pre and post lockdown, that the team has been struggling to reach its own high standards. It's no knee-jerk complaint, and a 'wait and see' approach won't stop the damage from being done.

It's so frustrating because for a relatively small outlay we could already be just one short (a CB) of addressing most of our weaknesses : Werner, Thiago and Tsimitas.

 

[Modo]

I know we won the league and all - but do some of you guys think that some of our players look at City and think that they have it so easy in terms of effort and goals ? - we have to work so damn hard to get a goal and once we are in front then things usually become easy (well most of the time), but before that first goal it has often felt like a massive struggle, and always I have looked at the lack of midfield creativity that is the root cause of this.

Yep, also because City have better finishers bar Sterling obviously.

 

[gkmacca]

I fear someone at the club is playing Bob Marley singing 'Don't worry' non-stop on a very loud loop, probably while they're as toked up as he was. There's already a Leicester vibe about how we're being discussed, or dismissed, by some sources, and it's understandable. There's absolutely nothing wrong with FSG trying to be financially responsible, but they also have a duty to promote success on the pitch, and no matter how much they stress the uncertainty of the times, the fact is that all the commercial deals, including Nike, weren't signed with the expectation that the club would start sliding down the top four. Success on the pitch isn't the awful drain on finances that the owners seem at times to imply it is - it's the best way to secure increasingly lucrative commercial deals. Clubs that are progressing spark dollar signs, clubs that are regressing spark warning signs. So investing in the squad, even at this time, is not really the suicidal move that the club's party line suggests. Wait and seeing isn't much help - what do they think is going to be announced before the transfer window shuts that might significantly change the range of options? Revised TV deals? - they'll already be briefed about all of that. Staggered introduction of fans? Again, all the options have been on the table for a while, and the most likely ones are known, so projections in relation to those are again already in place. The squad needs adding to, not simply altering with ins and outs. FSG can end up with a brilliant reputation when they leave the club, but not if they get this summer wrong, and at the moment that's precisely what they seem to be doing.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Reasons for optimism:
1) The core of the team is still rock solid
2) We still have the best goalie in the world, best CB in the world, one of the best full back pairing in the world, one of best DMs in the world and two of the top attacking talents in the world
3) Keita seems ready to push on from last year
4) The best manager in the game today
5) Motivation of being the only team in Premier League history to hit 90 points 3 years in a row

Reasons for concern:
1) The core of the team is the same core for 3 straight years - can they continue what they did for ~18 months before we started slipping just before the Watford loss?
2) The team has added no one in 2 years that can challenge the 1st 11 ... Can the players return to that level I just mentioned?
3) Our rivals - Man City, Chelsea, Man U & even Arsenal - are getting stronger and stronger. Unlike us, they have everything to prove.
4) Average age of our core

 

[Woland]

I was just going to ask to those saying they understand the financial constraints. I don't so could you explain them please?

We've won everything in the last couple of years. Millions from stuff you don't normally do such as the club world cup. Huge new kit deal. 80 million quid more revenue in 19 than 18 and despite the last few games not being attended I'm certain that 20 will also be higher because of the stuff I just mentioned. If the view is we can't spend because something that only nets us 80 million a year might only net us 40 million this year, then nope. We made huge profits the last couple of years. Also the value of the club has increased tenfold. What's the point in having billionaires making billions when the minute it looks like they might have a ten percent fall in revenue that was projected to break records anyway, they pull the plug? It's pathetic.

 

[Beamrider]

We spent around £60m on a new training facility (most of that spend would have been budgeted for last year so largely explains last year's lack of activity, but it will have closed down with the lockdown and could well have gone over budget as a result).
We will have paid out big player and coaching staff bonuses for winning the Premier League, and possibly some pay increases and contingent transfer fees as a result - this will be partly offset by some sponsor bonuses but it's likely most of our sponsorships won't contain those kind of bonus clauses.
We will have had to fork out on refunds to season ticket holders and hospitality ticket holders.
We won't have any money coming in for season tickets and hospitality for the coming season.
We're losing out on match day income, (non-season) ticket sales.
We will have budgeted a hit in TV revenue this year (given Premier League agreed to defer the hit from last year into this / next year's revenue).
Losing out on the knock-out rounds of the Champions League will have seen us lose out on revenue compared to last year.
No pre-season tour revenue.
There's a good chance we'll have paid out rebates on commercial deals to sponsors, many of which are driven by player appearances and on-line advertising, where volumes will be down because of less activity from fans.
We're paying huge wages to our players, even before bonuses (we seem to have adopted a policy in recent years of shelling out decent wages to existing players rather than spending big on new ones).
The revenue won't be up as much as some might expect in 2019-20, mainly due to the pandemic but our cost base has risen too.
The major player sales we did (mainly Coutinho) won't be throwing off any more cash as they will have been paid in full by now.
Most, but not all, of those factors affect other clubs in the League as well.
Putting any numbers on that would be pure guess work but it's going to be more than just a bump into the road.
We're starting to see more clubs (not than the plastic ones) spend some money on transfers but mostly not huge deals. Most of those clubs will be funding those deals by taking on more debt (particularly Chelsea and Everton). We seem to have decided not to do this.
Yes, it's massively disappointing not to see us strengthen given our success in the last two seasons, but the window doesn't close until October. By that time, things could look massively different (or, worst case, we'll have been proven right and a lot of other clubs will be fucked).

 

[keniget]

I'm guessing the wait and see what happens basically means "can we get anyone to buy our deadwood?".

 

[Donavan Ried]

I was just going to ask to those saying they understand the financial constraints. I don't so could you explain them please?

We've won everything in the last couple of years. Millions from stuff you don't normally do such as the club world cup. Huge new kit deal. 80 million quid more revenue in 19 than 18 and despite the last few games not being attended I'm certain that 20 will also be higher because of the stuff I just mentioned. If the view is we can't spend because something that only nets us 80 million a year might only net us 40 million this year, then nope. We made huge profits the last couple of years. Also the value of the club has increased tenfold. What's the point in having billionaires making billions when the minute it looks like they might have a ten percent fall in revenue that was projected to break records anyway, they pull the plug? It's pathetic.

Raised a simular point elsewhere on the site

 

[Donavan Ried]

We spent around £60m on a new training facility (most of that spend would have been budgeted for last year so largely explains last year's lack of activity, but it will have closed down with the lockdown and could well have gone over budget as a result).
We will have paid out big player and coaching staff bonuses for winning the Premier League, and possibly some pay increases and contingent transfer fees as a result - this will be partly offset by some sponsor bonuses but it's likely most of our sponsorships won't contain those kind of bonus clauses.
We will have had to fork out on refunds to season ticket holders and hospitality ticket holders.
We won't have any money coming in for season tickets and hospitality for the coming season.
We're losing out on match day income, (non-season) ticket sales.
We will have budgeted a hit in TV revenue this year (given Premier League agreed to defer the hit from last year into this / next year's revenue).
Losing out on the knock-out rounds of the Champions League will have seen us lose out on revenue compared to last year.
No pre-season tour revenue.
There's a good chance we'll have paid out rebates on commercial deals to sponsors, many of which are driven by player appearances and on-line advertising, where volumes will be down because of less activity from fans.
We're paying huge wages to our players, even before bonuses (we seem to have adopted a policy in recent years of shelling out decent wages to existing players rather than spending big on new ones).
The revenue won't be up as much as some might expect in 2019-20, mainly due to the pandemic but our cost base has risen too.
The major player sales we did (mainly Coutinho) won't be throwing off any more cash as they will have been paid in full by now.
Most, but not all, of those factors affect other clubs in the League as well.
Putting any numbers on that would be pure guess work but it's going to be more than just a bump into the road.
We're starting to see more clubs (not than the plastic ones) spend some money on transfers but mostly not huge deals. Most of those clubs will be funding those deals by taking on more debt (particularly Chelsea and Everton). We seem to have decided not to do this.
Yes, it's massively disappointing not to see us strengthen given our success in the last two seasons, but the window doesn't close until October. By that time, things could look massively different (or, worst case, we'll have been proven right and a lot of other clubs will be fucked).

Merchandising...? Extra shirt sales and lille bagdes (CWC) Stars (CL) & and Champions logos, thats new shirts bearing these thing or old shirt with these things add to them Millions of pounds made there

 

[Woland]

We spent around £60m on a new training facility (most of that spend would have been budgeted for last year so largely explains last year's lack of activity, but it will have closed down with the lockdown and could well have gone over budget as a result).
We will have paid out big player and coaching staff bonuses for winning the Premier League, and possibly some pay increases and contingent transfer fees as a result - this will be partly offset by some sponsor bonuses but it's likely most of our sponsorships won't contain those kind of bonus clauses.
We will have had to fork out on refunds to season ticket holders and hospitality ticket holders.
We won't have any money coming in for season tickets and hospitality for the coming season.
We're losing out on match day income, (non-season) ticket sales.
We will have budgeted a hit in TV revenue this year (given Premier League agreed to defer the hit from last year into this / next year's revenue).
Losing out on the knock-out rounds of the Champions League will have seen us lose out on revenue compared to last year.
No pre-season tour revenue.
There's a good chance we'll have paid out rebates on commercial deals to sponsors, many of which are driven by player appearances and on-line advertising, where volumes will be down because of less activity from fans.
We're paying huge wages to our players, even before bonuses (we seem to have adopted a policy in recent years of shelling out decent wages to existing players rather than spending big on new ones).
The revenue won't be up as much as some might expect in 2019-20, mainly due to the pandemic but our cost base has risen too.
The major player sales we did (mainly Coutinho) won't be throwing off any more cash as they will have been paid in full by now.
Most, but not all, of those factors affect other clubs in the League as well.
Putting any numbers on that would be pure guess work but it's going to be more than just a bump into the road.
We're starting to see more clubs (not than the plastic ones) spend some money on transfers but mostly not huge deals. Most of those clubs will be funding those deals by taking on more debt (particularly Chelsea and Everton). We seem to have decided not to do this.
Yes, it's massively disappointing not to see us strengthen given our success in the last two seasons, but the window doesn't close until October. By that time, things could look massively different (or, worst case, we'll have been proven right and a lot of other clubs will be fucked).

Like I say I accept that some parts of the revenue are down temporarily, while some are up permanently.

In this context and in the context of the massively increased asset value I don't get how it's acceptable to stand still. We're being outspent by Everton for about the fourth year of the last five. It's ridiculous.

 

[Beamrider]

Merchandising...? Extra shirt sales and lille bagdes (CWC) Stars (CL) & and Champions logos, thats new shirts bearing these thing or old shirt with these things add to them Millions of pounds made there

Other than the percentage of shirts under the Nike deal, I don't think the merchandising will help that much - we'd only make extra money on badges and stuff if we sell them through the club's own stores, the main one being at Anfield which will do most of its business on a match day. Away from Anfield, retail generally is on its arse at the moment so the stores in town, other than shirt sales (which they supposedly can't keep up with) won't be doing that much business. The casual trade from tourists coming to the city will be almost non-existent at the moment.
All of the other stuff you see with the liver bird logo on will most likely earn a fixed annual fee to the club to use the logos, and those fees won't be that significant. From the club's perspective it's easy money so they won't place much value on it.

 

[Beamrider]

Like I say I accept that some parts of the revenue are down temporarily, while some are up permanently.

In this context and in the context of the massively increased asset value I don't get how it's acceptable to stand still. We're being outspent by Everton for about the fourth year of the last five. It's ridiculous.

I agree. Hugely frustrating, but that's FSG's way. Not trying to justify it, just trying to explain and understand.

 

[peekay]

Like I say I accept that some parts of the revenue are down temporarily, while some are up permanently.

In this context and in the context of the massively increased asset value I don't get how it's acceptable to stand still. We're being outspent by Everton for about the fourth year of the last five. It's ridiculous.

Red Sox are also projected to have financial losses this season. Not justifying FSG, but I think that is causing them to be extra careful. Even with that, there is no excuse for being outspent by Everton season after season.

Anyways, after 2024 when Klopp leaves, it looks like the chances of us competing for anything will be almost zero. Unless we stumble into another Klopp and the chances of that are pretty minimal.

 

[rurikbird]

Anyways, after 2024 when Klopp leaves, it looks like the chances of us competing for anything will be almost zero. Unless we stumble into another Klopp and the chances of that are pretty minimal.

What utter shite. We currently have possibly the best squad in our history, with a good age balance and quite a number of potentially top-class youngsters coming through. When TAA reaches his prime he will probably be able to carry the team even if surrounded by relatively mediocre players, like Gerrard was for large parts of his career.

Obviously there will need to be continued investment and regeneration until 2024 and there will be - you’re all acting like sky is falling because we lost to Arsenal on penalties in a pre-season game and only signed 1 player so far with more than a month of the transfer window to go (by comparison Real Madrid, Barca and Athletico have signed NO ONE at this point). We’ve had arguably the best and smartest transfer dealings of any side in world football over the last few years, but still patience is in short supply.

 

[peekay]

What utter shite. We currently have possibly the best squad in our history, with a good age balance and quite a number of potentially top-class youngsters coming through. When TAA reaches his prime he will probably be able to carry a team even if surrounded by relatively mediocre players, like Gerrard was for large parts of his career.

Obviously there will need to be continued investment and regeneration until 2024 and there will be - you’re all acting like sky is falling because we lost to Arsenal on penalties in a pre-season game and only signed 1 player so far with more than a month of the transfer window to go (by comparison Real Madrid, Barca and Athletico have signed NO ONE at this point).

Except I haven't acted like the sky is falling. Read my previous posts before reacting like this. There is a big difference between "We haven't bought anyone. Throws toys out of the pram. FSG are shite" and the statements which myself, @Woland, @keniget, @dmishra, et al are making.

I have very clearly mentioned a couple of times that we are going to start feeling the result of underinvestment in the squad if not this season, most likely the next. We need to start giving other teams new attacking threats to think about. We are also missing out on the opportunity to gradually transition into the next great team under Klopp.

On the one hand, we are learning about all these glorious deals we are signing with business partners all over the world with increases in revenue. On the other hand, we are continuously being outspent by clubs like Everton. No harm in questioning that.

As for the post-Klopp era. Credit to FSG for setting up the system so that someone like Klopp could come in and elevate us. Everyone in our management structure deserves credit for our success. But I think the catalyst for our success is Klopp whom I think is an all-time great. Even with the FSG structure, I don't think at this point, there is any other manager who could have delivered us the league and the champions league. Nagelsmann, Rose are all impressive managers. But it is one thing being all hipster about tactics and transfers in Bundesliga with only one hurdle to overcome. It is a different ball game in the premier league. There have been other similar young hipster manager with new-fangled management techniques with an impressive resume who have failed in the premier league (Andres Villas Boas).

In general, under FSG we spend big when we sell big. Our net spend is generally low even compared to clubs like Wolves, Everton. I believe under that strategy, it is going to be difficult for any manager other than Klopp to get us to compete for the trophies. I am not throwing my toys out of the pram or asking for a middle eastern prince to buy us so that we can get Neymar. It is just my opinion based on what I have observed.

I have not gotten confrontational ever in my 10-12 year posting history on SCM. But you are the one responding to critical but rational views on the way we spend this summer by posters in a negative manner. If you cannot handle an alternate viewpoint, don't read them.

 

[Woland]

I'm trying to put it in terms I can get my head round.

Imagine you and your mates invested 200 grand in a company seven years ago. Over the time you doubled the revenue, and now its the best in the market at what it does and it's worth a couple of million. This is obv great, not lifechanging because between you you're already worth 10 million, but it's really ace that you've grown the business year on year, made decent profit, and the best bit is you've grown the value of the thing by a couple of million quid.

Now, the crisis comes along and you're a bit worried about next year and what you should or shouldn't invest. Thing is, many of your competitors are crazy jealous of what you've achieved, which has mostly been down to your ace MD. They're throwing loads of money at it, some of them are investing hundreds of thousands just to try to catch up, which they might if you stand still.

If you had a board meeting in those circs and you agreed that if you invested about fifty grand you'd remain on an upward trajectory and number 1, do you think you'd act on that? I mean you've already made loads, fifty grand is pocket change in the scheme of things, but it will take you to another level where you're going to be able to kick on for the next year or two. What do you think you'd say on that board? I just don't get how anyone would say no.

 

[Hansern]

There is a long way to go to October though, so hopefully we’ll have a clearer picture of our revenue and sold some deadwood by then.
We have the time we need to improve the squad. Regarding Thiago, I can understand the reasoning for not paying 30 mill now when you can sign him for free on a pre contract in 3 months time.
Hopefully they’ll reduce the asking price and we can get him.

 

[Mamma Mia]

I'm trying to put it in terms I can get my head round.

Imagine you and your mates invested 200 grand in a company seven years ago. Over the time you doubled the revenue, and now its the best in the market at what it does and it's worth a couple of million. This is obv great, not lifechanging because between you you're already worth 10 million, but it's really ace that you've grown the business year on year, made decent profit, and the best bit is you've grown the value of the thing by a couple of million quid.

Now, the crisis comes along and you're a bit worried about next year and what you should or shouldn't invest. Thing is, many of your competitors are crazy jealous of what you've achieved, which has mostly been down to your ace MD. They're throwing loads of money at it, some of them are investing hundreds of thousands just to try to catch up, which they might if you stand still.

If you had a board meeting in those circs and you agreed that if you invested about fifty grand you'd remain on an upward trajectory and number 1, do you think you'd act on that? I mean you've already made loads, fifty grand is pocket change in the scheme of things, but it will take you to another level where you're going to be able to kick on for the next year or two. What do you think you'd say on that board? I just don't get how anyone would say no.

It's just because you're forgetting Mbappe

 

[Donavan Ried]

What utter shite. We currently have possibly the best squad in our history, with a good age balance and quite a number of potentially top-class youngsters coming through. When TAA reaches his prime he will probably be able to carry the team even if surrounded by relatively mediocre players, like Gerrard was for large parts of his career.

Obviously there will need to be continued investment and regeneration until 2024 and there will be - you’re all acting like sky is falling because we lost to Arsenal on penalties in a pre-season game and only signed 1 player so far with more than a month of the transfer window to go (by comparison Real Madrid, Barca and Athletico have signed NO ONE at this point). We’ve had arguably the best and smartest transfer dealings of any side in world football over the last few years, but still patience is in short supply.

Your seem to miss the point...Under FSG we will need to sell a player at around about £70 -£120m before we can really invest in quality players... as it stands now we have only average players to replace the front three, who are misfiring now and a real lack of creativity fromm mid-field...

We will be fighting for a top four finish this coming season unless the money is splashed and we get in at least a CB and a striker

 

[gkmacca]

It's just because you're forgetting Mbappe

Don't worry, Mbappe.

 

[moron]

Can I just ask how the f*ck you can spend 60M on a new training facility ? - seems a bit over the top.

 

[Modo]

There is a long way to go to October though, so hopefully we’ll have a clearer picture of our revenue and sold some deadwood by then.
We have the time we need to improve the squad. Regarding Thiago, I can understand the reasoning for not paying 30 mill now when you can sign him for free on a pre contract in 3 months time.
Hopefully they’ll reduce the asking price and we can get him.

Yes we sign him for free but he wants to leave now, also we play an entire season without him and he's a year older.
So I don't really get that logic.