Bang on, it wasn't meant as slight on Masher btw, or Lucas for that matter, just that playing both together was negative and offered no outlet.
The 2nd place 85 point Rafa squad versus now
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Bang on, it wasn't meant as slight on Masher btw, or Lucas for that matter, just that playing both together was negative and offered no outlet.
I remember it away at Villa too and it was atrocious.
Sorry but I think that overpraises his attacking ventures by quite a margin. He got forward often enough to begin with, but it rarely if ever came to anything. To be fair to Rafa, I always wondered whether that was the main reason why Lucas was moved deeper.
I wonder about the last bit of your post too. Lucas has worked so hard to adapt his game to the DM role (with a degree of success) that I have my doubts about whether we can expect much in the way of attacking improvement from him now.
The way we defended against City would see us, 9 times out of 10, quash other teams. There won't be another team in the league that scores a goal like Kun did against us and Reina won't do that again (I hope). I thought their first was pretty good play tbh. Agger could have been more alert but that can happen.
My point is, the way we closed City down, at theirs, was outstanding. Sure, we were more compact under Rafa but I never saw us close teams down with that sort of agression - we looked like we were attacking without the ball.
As for the midfield question - it's got a bit to do with the team environment. For the past 6 months we've looked the most desperately needy team when it comes to a junk yard dog in the middle breaking legs. Have a look at Mascher at Barca or see if he'd be someone that Bayern or City would really want; he doesn't come into it.
If we're playing (defending) like we did against City then a player like Mascher - as inspiring as he can be - is marginalised enormously. The weaker you are in the front third - or even two thirds - the better Mascher is going to look. Defend with that panache and agression we saw at City and the effectiveness disappears.
Lucas is nowhere near the dynamic defender that Mascher was nor will he ever be. But he's a million miles better than Javier with the ball at his feet. If we're in a team like Everton, Stoke, us under Rafa, us a month ago or even Madrid then Mascher is a prize asset. Those are teams who build on players who stamp their play with defense and then score off the back of it. If you're looking at Swansea, West Brom, the mancs or Barca then you're not planning on having the opposition run at you. The type of player you want is someone who can tackle but mostly he can take the ball and move it forward in the one touch,
I'm not suggesting that Lucas is the player for Barca or Munich or the Mancs etc - certainly not in the form he's in now. But he's the style of player that attacking teams like Barca and Bayern etc want on the pitch. He'll never generate the passionate love from fans with constant, aggressive, leg breaking tackles on the most hated of opposition players. But he'll contribute more to the so called "tippy tappy" football we're supposedly aiming for than Mascher ever would.
Given a choice right now I'd take Mascher cause I think he'd give us much greater value for money. But in 18 months, if Rodgers has us playing the style he's publicly proclaiming, it'd be a different story.
I agree - Mascherano's passing wasn't bad at all. That's what impressed me after the departure of his predecessor Momo Sissoko. Mascher could tackle just as effectively as Sissoko but he was able to use the ball after he had won it.
He did give the ball away though, it wasn't like he "couldn't" pass, but he'd get a rush of blood to the head (such was his game) and rather than calm it down and be patient, he'd try to hurry things. Like I said, I don't think that he couldn't pass the ball and do it well, but he was criminal at times for squandering possession.
Great player though and I'd have him back in this side in a heartbeat.
Seriously Fabio, that's just an utterly dire comment.
One of the top 10 most accurate passers in the league and you're claiming he gives the ball away as much as Mascher.
"Lucas is a faster and better tackler than Mascher ever was" - that sort of comment is on the same level as saying Lucas is as guilty of giving away possession as Mascher ever was.
They're two completely and utterly different players suited to two completely different teams and two completely different footballing philosophies. I personally find it easier to build an affection for Mascher's individual style of play but I'm far happier with the footballing philosophy that suits Lucas.
One of the top 10 most accurate passers in the league and you're claiming he gives the ball away as much as Mascher.
"Lucas is a faster and better tackler than Mascher ever was" - that sort of comment is on the same level as saying Lucas is as guilty of giving away possession as Mascher ever was.
They're two completely and utterly different players suited to two completely different teams and two completely different footballing philosophies. I personally find it easier to build an affection for Mascher's individual style of play but I'm far happier with the footballing philosophy that suits Lucas.
And play him where??
I actually came back to this thread to make the same point as Fabio. Mashers passing ability (or lack of it) was always overstated by Liverpool fans and something I found rather grating. Perhaps it was because he was playing alongside two world class passers of the ball in Alonso and Gerrard or the fact that he was an 'ugly' player, I don't know. If anything, I think his main issues came when he tried to play more adventurous balls instead of keeping it simple.
He's not as good on the ball as Busquets or Song and that's why he finds himself at CB but in that Barcelona side I don't think that's really that much of an insult. If he wasn't a ball player he wouldn't have even been looked at never mind bought.
Lucas does play some great passes and alot of the time it goes unnoticed, he does it regularly playing a 20-30 yard pass splitting the first to middle third of the pitch usually in a fairly congested space, but because it's not further up the pitch it tends to pass under the radar despite being instrumental in the build up play. He does, however, need to offer more at times in terms of forward play (if only in this respect), he can play it safe too much, but I do think his passing ability has grown with his confidence to actually be in the side. It was probably always there but when you're a young player finding your feet (and your range), the groans of discontent can see too many players revert into their shell (cf Henderson and Allen).
T
the_khl
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Was about to offer my two pennies on the matter and then you wrote this, my sentiments exactly, delivered more eloquently too.
Cheers mate.
Here we go again with people trying to re-write hard facts.
You can say that Lucas' passing is over rated by fans - that's subjective opinion.
You can say that Mascher's passing is under rated by fans - again, subjective opinion.
Saying that they're as good as each other passing wise is just rubbish. You are, of course, entitled to say it just as I'm entitled to say that the earth is flat and The Lying Rag rises in the south. That doesn't change the fact that all three statements are scientifically, demonstrably false.
Lucas is one of the most accurate passers of the football in the league. Not opinion - scientifically proven fact.
Mascherano was not in the top 30 most accurate passers of the football. Again, not opinion - scientifically proven fact.
I stated in my original post that I'd take Mascher over Lucas right now in a heart beat because of the state of our team . But put a slick passing team together and if it was between the two of them Lucas would walk it.
If Mascherano was such a good passer of the football being chased by the premier passing team in the world at the time, why did he take 7 months to get off the bench - and even then it was just because of injury? Even now he's being played out of position - a bloody midget that even our CB's could dominate in the air.
He was and is a destroyer - perhaps the best in the world. But that's it. He isn't and nor does he pretend to be a good passer.
Passing accuracy doesn't make someone a better passer.
I could get 100% accuracy by simply passing it to defenders and near players. Of course I known lucas can pass well, but often his passes are to gerrard/johnson/enrique/etc. Players who are near him.
I'm not expecting lucas to cut through the defense with his passes, but you're making outlandish claims that accuracy=better. Like Ross often says, stats mean nothing without context. How many of lucas passes were forward? How many were over 10 yards? How many found an attaching player rather than a defender?
Maschers role was simply to pass the ball to alonso and Gerrard and let them dominate. Problem being is that he was not a calm player, he would try to force this when he saw a break on.
I have no problem with lucas (bar his current meh form), however the only person rewriting things is you wiz.
I could get 100% accuracy by simply passing it to defenders and near players. Of course I known lucas can pass well, but often his passes are to gerrard/johnson/enrique/etc. Players who are near him.
I'm not expecting lucas to cut through the defense with his passes, but you're making outlandish claims that accuracy=better. Like Ross often says, stats mean nothing without context. How many of lucas passes were forward? How many were over 10 yards? How many found an attaching player rather than a defender?
Maschers role was simply to pass the ball to alonso and Gerrard and let them dominate. Problem being is that he was not a calm player, he would try to force this when he saw a break on.
I have no problem with lucas (bar his current meh form), however the only person rewriting things is you wiz.
Don't bring me into this conversation.
Mascher is better than Lucas. He is definately on par with Haman and a very good asset to have in the team when he was here.
But it is all about balance. We would probably need him even more now than back then!
Lucas need to fin the form he had the few months before he got injured. Hopefully he will get back to that level. What is important is to get him to perform at a higher level than he is at the moment. Mascher is gone, and Lucas is still here. I have not payed to much attention to those passes splitting presslevels, and I trust they will be more visuable when he find better form. He is a good pro on the field, and probably even better pro off the field. if he find that form he will be a rolemodel for the hendos and Shelveys that are there to carry us further in the future.
But it is all about balance. We would probably need him even more now than back then!
Lucas need to fin the form he had the few months before he got injured. Hopefully he will get back to that level. What is important is to get him to perform at a higher level than he is at the moment. Mascher is gone, and Lucas is still here. I have not payed to much attention to those passes splitting presslevels, and I trust they will be more visuable when he find better form. He is a good pro on the field, and probably even better pro off the field. if he find that form he will be a rolemodel for the hendos and Shelveys that are there to carry us further in the future.
Lucas even in his best form before his injury was not as good as masher, Gerrard is a shadow of what he was, Torres was still possibly the best striker in the world at that time although i accept that Suarez is exceptional. Alonso played a blinder that season and we simply do not have a player of his quality in the middle anymore, Reina was also on top of his game...
actually why debate it... its silly...
We lost twice all season and if we had concentrated a bit more against Chelsea we probably would have won number 6 while we awere at it. Its chalk and cheese for me.
Rafa's squad was infinitely better in all departments and scored more goals. Our defence was solid and we always had a feeling that if we were 1-0 up we'd win the game. Against anybody over 2 legs, we'd triumph 9/10 times.
Sturridge and Suarez may turn out to be a better strike partnership in the near future and you always get a sense that they can do damage. Lucas isn't fit to tie Mascherano's laces at the minute. His golden patch before his injury showed the massive impact he could have on the team and overall play. He needs to step up much like many other players.
Our current squad is a work in progress and have a ways to go. The potential is there though but like all masterpieces we need time which is a precious commodity.
Sturridge and Suarez may turn out to be a better strike partnership in the near future and you always get a sense that they can do damage. Lucas isn't fit to tie Mascherano's laces at the minute. His golden patch before his injury showed the massive impact he could have on the team and overall play. He needs to step up much like many other players.
Our current squad is a work in progress and have a ways to go. The potential is there though but like all masterpieces we need time which is a precious commodity.
My passing stats are shit, and I am shit, so ergo they're not!
Generally it's a pretty good indicator. Unless you are comparing players at different positions.
Are you saying that Mascher has a lower accuracy rate because he is a more adventurous passer than Lucas? If you are, that's clearly not the case. Lucas plays more forward passes than Mascher and still gets better accuracy % - so he is clearly the better passer. This should not be even an argument, just like there is no argument than Mascher offers a more powerful defensive presence.
On current form, I would take Mascher over Lucas, no question. But potentially Lucas is a better fit for the team Rodgers is trying to build. That's why I am a little cool on the idea of signing a midfield destroyer. When Lucas recovers his best form (and he will; I have complete faith in his work ethic), we won't have space in the starting 11 for a player like that any more.
By Opta Sportsdata Last updated: Monday 30th November 2009
Top Passer Javier Mascherano (Liverpool) 916
top tacklers club attempted success rate
Thomas Wigan 72 85%
Mascherano Liverpool 69 84%
Lucas Liverpool 60 70%
Diamé Wigan 56 66%
Palacios Tottenham 55 73%
Top Passers
Passers Team Passes Accuracy
Mascherano Liverpool 916 86%
Essien Chelsea 879 88%
Fabregas Arsenal 832 82%
Huddlestone Tottenham 779 78%
Lucas Liverpool 772 87%
Top Passer Javier Mascherano (Liverpool) 916
top tacklers club attempted success rate
Thomas Wigan 72 85%
Mascherano Liverpool 69 84%
Lucas Liverpool 60 70%
Diamé Wigan 56 66%
Palacios Tottenham 55 73%
Top Passers
Passers Team Passes Accuracy
Mascherano Liverpool 916 86%
Essien Chelsea 879 88%
Fabregas Arsenal 832 82%
Huddlestone Tottenham 779 78%
Lucas Liverpool 772 87%
Why is this even up for debate.. this squad is no where near the class of that squad and anyone thinking its even close is just kidding themselves..
Stats can fuck off. Anyone who thinks Lucas is anywhere near the level of Mascherano needs massive fucking glasses.
Haha. I thought you were inviting someone for a round of good bashing until I saw you only patronized the poor bastards!!!
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