So, anyone still on Ryan's 'Lucas Bandwagon'?

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=37711.msg1007662#msg1007662 date=1260123068]

The guy isn't the worst player in the world and I suspect would be a decent signing for an Italian side, however he's dying a slow painful death in that massive Alonso shaped hole as we stare up at Spurs and City with worried faces, so whilst it is unfair on him, I can understand why he does get singled out.

[/quote]

This sums it up in one paragraph, without silly hyperbole either for or against Lucas...

He's not utter gash nor is he the reason we've been losing matches. Unfortuantely, nor has he been one of our better players and he's done little to get us winning these matches either. He's hopelessly unsuited for the role he's been asked to play for us and that's not his fault. The truth is that he's distinctly average when compared to other CMs in the top flight, and the fact that he's been basically an ever-present this season is one of the reasons that we're struggling to do anything consistently.

He has improved over last season, no doubt. But that fact that he's no longer the worst player we have doesn't catapult him into any category other than usable squad player. He'd not get a sniff on any of the other title / top 4 challangers - He's not good enough to be a regular starter on a team that good...

And, as somebody above pointed out, he, and we, are proving this fact week in and week out.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=37711.msg1007653#msg1007653 date=1260122704]
anyone who says 'fuck up' is a joke of a person.
[/quote]Or ya know, from Northern Ireland where it comes from. Dick

 

[Skullflower]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37711.msg1007706#msg1007706 date=1260127972]
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=37711.msg1007653#msg1007653 date=1260122704]
anyone who says 'fuck up' is a joke of a person.
[/quote]Or ya know, from Northern Ireland where it comes from. Dick
[/quote]

same thing.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=37711.msg1007707#msg1007707 date=1260128017]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37711.msg1007706#msg1007706 date=1260127972]
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=37711.msg1007653#msg1007653 date=1260122704]
anyone who says 'fuck up' is a joke of a person.
[/quote]Or ya know, from Northern Ireland where it comes from. Dick
[/quote]

same thing.
[/quote]Hahaha

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37711.msg1007600#msg1007600 date=1260118502]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37711.msg1007564#msg1007564 date=1260112353]
Having said that - and I'm sure I'll get no support - I would play him ahead of Mascher in a number of these games. The combination of the two doesn't work but unless we need an out and out destroyer I'd pick Lucas instead for a few games since he still offers significantly more going forward.
[/quote]

At least you're being honest -

So Wizardy would rather partner Lucas with Gerrard/Aquaman/whoever and keep Mascherano on the bench. I don't agree with this at all. Mascherano is amongst the best in the world at his position (DM) and that he doesn't create much SHOULDN'T be an issue. The fact we're relying on him (& sadly, Lucas) to fill in the Xabi's void is a sad testament of a) lack of funds b) a poor purchase of Aquilani or c) Rafa's poor handling of Aquilani (I dunno which it is, and there may be d,e & f) but hey.
[/quote]

Well, that would be the difference in our approach then; I don't believe we need to "waste" a position on the field for a destroyer against teams who are going to offer almost nothing coming forward just because that destroyer is one of the best in the world at what he does.

If you're losing 2-nil at home you don't take off a striker and bring on a defender just because he's the best player in his position the game has ever seen. Mascher is outstanding in a lot of games where the opposition are actually going for our throats. But when we're up against fairly mediocre opposition we don't need to have an out and out defensive midfielder playing just because he is one of the best DM's in the world.

As I've already said, Lucas is not a player - certainly not yet - who would drive a team to the title. But he's a hell of a lot more creative than Mascher, actually has some touch and feel on his passes and can read a game in defense and attack. I've never seen Mascher get in a position to provide the cutback for Gerrard in his career. That's not to criticise Mascher - that's not why you would pick him in the team. But if there isn't much work to do for a DM why pick him anyway - that's just pitiful. Lucas isn't Mascher's toe nail when it comes to being a DM but he's still got a bag full more in his locker going forward and sometimes that's all we need rather than the worlds best DM.

Just for Keni - are you taking the piss? Who the hell is comparing him to Gerrard? He's no where near that level and I doubt he ever will be but Lucas rarely under-hits a pass; the number of times Kuyt fails to control the pace of his pass and we watch it bounce off into the midfield at increasingly strange angles is amazing. Gerrard looks completely different because of his dynamism; he passes and surges forward - instantly upping the tempo. Lucas is about the only other player on the team who hits his passes first time; ironically he was slated for it last year with "he needs to hold it and draw an opponent". The guy can't win. His technical ability is first rate but, like Smicer before him, he's having a lot of trouble with the physical side of the game here.

 

[Judge Jules]

Fair play to you for your loyalty to him, Wizardry, but I'm afraid I think it's misplaced. Even if he does have more in his attacking locker than Mascher - and frankly I don't think even that's been evident lately - he simply doesn't have enough (Vlad Smicer was light years ahead of him technically). At least with Mascher in the side we know the defensive business will be well and truly taken care of, and there's always some, even against sides who are playing poorly.

 

[keniget]

Wiz, I wasn't comparing him to Gerrard at all. I was just taking the only player in our team seemingly capable of playing an incisive first touch passing game - Lucas isn't. If I wanted to make a comparison with a player who is the best at what he does I'd use Xavi, someone who demonstrates what first rate technical ability really is.

I'm not as down on Lucas as some of the others here and have tried to be fairly objective when it comes to rating his actual ability but I really do think you're being extremely generous in your assessment.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=37711.msg1007779#msg1007779 date=1260135072]
Wiz, I wasn't comparing him to Gerrard at all. I was just taking the only player in our team seemingly capable of playing an incisive first touch passing game - Lucas isn't. If I wanted to make a comparison with a player who is the best at what he does I'd use Xavi, someone who demonstrates what first rate technical ability really is.

I'm not as down on Lucas as some of the others here and have tried to be fairly objective when it comes to rating his actual ability but I really do think you're being extremely generous in your assessment.
[/quote]

Hhmmm, perhaps I've fallen into the trap of responding in kind to the utter gash and drivel some posters have been scrawling across these boards. I don't for one second think he's been playing well enough to demand a place in the team; I've said ad nauseum that I thought we needed an attacking threat in midfield or behind the striker during the window on top of someone like Aquilani. Johnson has been a great player but, as much as I like him, I think the improvement we've made with him over Arbeloa etc is nothing compared to what we could have done at the centre of the action.

The reality is that Rafa decided we were fine in this area last season and that a long term injured replacement for Alonso would be adequate for us to go for the title. It wasn't and I'd be surprised if many on here thought it would be back in July. However, that's where we are and to then jump on Lucas because he isn't at the level of Alonso or Gerrard drives me nuts. He gets slated for every tiny error he makes while almost everyone else (Insua and Babel aside) seem to get a free ride. Lucas was a long way from the worst player on the pitch against Blackburn with far fewer passing errors than some more illustrious team mates. Yet he's the one to whom all animosity is directed. It borders on the pathetic and makes you wonder how many of these posters have ever even watched a game let alone the one we're discussing.

For JJ, I'm surprised you feel that way. I know you're a fan of Mascher and rightly so but his forays forward are a loose cannon which are as likely to end in the corner flag being snapped as the keeper being tested. There's a constructive and probing manner to the way Lucas comes forward and, while it's more cautious than I would like, we generally have more pressure and chances from his forward work than that of Mascher.

 

[monsieurdantes]

replacing lucas isn't going to help. the rest of our team including gerrard and torres are playing along and falling into the habit of a lucas infected team. even if alonso came back tomorrow, the team right now would not be able to make the runs and movements that could exploit his passing.

lucas is like a cancer. its infected everyone. the team is shit. not just lucas. the entire fucking team. pretty soon johnson will start to fail. aquilani too. thats the way i see things

 

[Juanito]

Ordinary(should be) squad player.

Don't know what's with all the drama.

 

[Bradley]

[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=37711.msg1007707#msg1007707 date=1260128017]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=37711.msg1007706#msg1007706 date=1260127972]
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=37711.msg1007653#msg1007653 date=1260122704]
anyone who says 'fuck up' is a joke of a person.
[/quote]Or ya know, from Northern Ireland where it comes from. Dick
[/quote]

same thing.
[/quote]

You'll end up with yer knees done bucko!

😛

 

[SummerOnions]

speaking of ulsterness.

Is harry a belfast word for slut?

 

[Bradley]

[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=37711.msg1007803#msg1007803 date=1260139770]
speaking of ulsterness.

Is harry a belfast word for slut?
[/quote]

First I've heard of it.

 

[dossena]

I think Lucas is an excellent back up center mid.

He can play with either Gerrard or Mascherano. He isn't very creative but will still stand up against the best of midfielders, particularly defensively ( shown by the 2 wins vs united in which he started, the away Inter game, and that high scoring game against Chelsea when he scored).

He isn't good enough at the moment to start consistently for us, but as a midfield cover, I think he's very good.

Abuse away now.

 

[Ossi]

I guess almost everyone could understand before this season started that Mascherano and Lucas would be a disaster. Rafa tried it- it´s didn´t work and it´s about time to try something different because it isn´t that Lucas is having a bad season...he´s just isn´t good enough footballer and they are to similiar to each other. We can´t defend and we can´t score goals.

Time to try something different. Fuck it! Give Dossena a game instead of Insua (if Aurelio is injured...which he is 75% of the time). Lucas, Insua and Kuyt out.

---------------------Reina--------------
Johnson-Carragher-Agger-Dossena
-----------------Mascherano------------
Benayoun-------Aquilani--------Riera
------------------Gerrard---------------
-------------------Torres----------------

Or (with no Torres or Aquilani):

--------------------Reina----------------
Johnson-Carragher-Agger-Dossena
Benayoun-Mascherano-Gerrard-Riera
-----------------Kuyt-Ngog---------------

 

[Ryan]

I still think that if Torres had been fit this season that the Lucas debate wouldn't be what it is. We'd also still be in the Champions League.

It's not Lucas' fault we don't have back-up strikers.

'Yesh but it is his fault he's fucking shit and a cunzzzzzzzzzzzz.........'

 

[Y1]

If I were you Ryan, I will ignore Brenden regarding Lucas. When he dislikes someone, there is no changing his opinion. For example Crouch.

Our players must not only be good technically (super good) and speedy but also looks good as well.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=37711.msg1007990#msg1007990 date=1260175970]
If I were you Ryan, I will ignore Brenden regarding Lucas. When he dislikes someone, there is no changing his opinion. For example Crouch.

Our players must not only be good technically (super good) and speedy but also looks good as well.
[/quote]

Which is why I like Dirk Kuyt, obv.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37711.msg1008014#msg1008014 date=1260177857]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=37711.msg1007990#msg1007990 date=1260175970]
If I were you Ryan, I will ignore Brenden regarding Lucas. When he dislikes someone, there is no changing his opinion. For example Crouch.

Our players must not only be good technically (super good) and speedy but also looks good as well.
[/quote]

Which is why I like Dirk Kuyt, obv.

[/quote]

Dirk does look good.

 

[Farkmaster]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37711.msg1007986#msg1007986 date=1260175715]
I still think that if Torres had been fit this season that the Lucas debate wouldn't be what it is. We'd also still be in the Champions League.

It's not Lucas' fault we don't have back-up strikers.

'Yesh but it is his fault he's fucking shit and a cunzzzzzzzzzzzz.........'
[/quote]

It isn't his fault he can't fulfill Alonso's role, nor it is his fault that he's been put into the same team, using the same system, as if he could fulfill that role.

It's not his fault that his play would be considered fine, if perhaps he was in a less influential position, and that his playing there was a massive advertisement to the footballing world that we had moved backwards this summer.

But whether Torres was healthy or not, he would often lack service when we play a defensive midfielder and a tepid midfielder as our CM partnership. Torres's magnificent, and we'd have a few more points, but we'd still easily be out of a title challenge, and who knows what else, because you can't carry your midfield unless you are really high on confidence.

We haven't played consistently good football since Alonso left, and while Lucas is clearly a scapegoat, and it isn't his fault, and some of the anger is over the top, and it's very simple to point at one variable (zzzz back at you) it doesn't mean that variable isn't a big contributing factor. It is a massive factor. If Lucas doesn't bear a massive responsibility for not mitigating that loss, and it isn't his fault, your expectations of the player say it all. He's a starting CM at a massive club.

Your analysis of Lucas playing, and Aquilani not, may make sense, on a game by game basis. It'd make sense to me, if I was in some vacuum of passion, and not incredibly fed up. Rafa's thoughtful use of Aquilani may be defensible on a game by game basis. Every time Aquilani doesn't play, the simplistic argument is WHY NOT MAKE THIS CHANGE, and of course you rightly problematise this simple view and say there are these reasons, which may well have motivated Rafa.

Unless there is some wierd rehab issue being swept under the rug here, we must look at the bigger picture. Our season is in a shambles, and it needs to turn on something. We lack creativity, our midfield is dull and toothless. When Torres plays, he has often been stranded. When he doesn't we are even more toothless, and require even more midfield support. The simple argument's time has come. Make a fucking change and see what happens. It isn't working, and we've tried most other permutations there is to try.

LFC needs a breath of fresh air badly, and the supporters are not amused. New toy.

 

[Ryan]

Hmmm, sorry Fark can't be arsed going through all of that, save to say I'd be as happy as anyone to see Aquilani get a go. I don't judge Lucas with the team's failings in mind, which i suppose you've hit upon.

 

[Ossi]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37711.msg1008033#msg1008033 date=1260178745]
Hmmm, sorry Fark can't be arsed going through all of that, save to say I'd be as happy as anyone to see Aquilani get a go. I don't judge Lucas with the team's failings in mind, which i suppose you've hit upon.
[/quote]

Would you drop Mascherano or Lucas?

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37711.msg1008014#msg1008014 date=1260177857]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=37711.msg1007990#msg1007990 date=1260175970]
If I were you Ryan, I will ignore Brenden regarding Lucas. When he dislikes someone, there is no changing his opinion. For example Crouch.

Our players must not only be good technically (super good) and speedy but also looks good as well.
[/quote]

Which is why I like Dirk Kuyt, obv.

[/quote]

You like Kuyt? Well I never!

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=37711.msg1007795#msg1007795 date=1260137500]
replacing lucas isn't going to help. the rest of our team including gerrard and torres are playing along and falling into the habit of a lucas infected team. even if alonso came back tomorrow, the team right now would not be able to make the runs and movements that could exploit his passing.

lucas is like a cancer. its infected everyone. the team is shit. not just lucas. the entire fucking team. pretty soon johnson will start to fail. aquilani too. thats the way i see things
[/quote]

So, Lucas = cancer?

 

[spider-Neil]

my dislike of insua growing to the point where I harly notice lucas anymore. in fact I was only drawn to his (lucas) presence when he tripped over his own feet (and his cut back to gerrard to be fair). of all the people in the first team I dislike insua the most. come back dossena all is forgiven.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37711.msg1007564#msg1007564 date=1260112353]
It's a shame we've been reduced this season to criticizing our own players as an outlet for our frustrations. As we've seen since 2001, if the team isn't playing well then people look for someone to take the blame and, once that person has been determined it doesn't matter how they perform they will still be the focal point for all available animosity.


As those who watched the game have already pointed out Lucas was a long way from the worst player on the pitch. His effort to get the ball back to Gerrard would have been the decisive point of the match if what looked a likely goal from our skipper had materialized. He got turned once or twice very badly in defence and was either - as Mark says - too gutless to take up the space in front of him on occasion or acting under different instructions. Having said that he still wins possession more than most credit him for, he works very hard, his passing is very accurate - particularly first time efforts and he always makes himself available when others deliberately and conspicuously turn their backs.

There's no argument from me that he should not be a regular part of a title chasing team - and guess what, he isn't. I think he's fine as a squad member to come in for two or three weeks to keep the midfield ticking over due to injury but he's not someone who will win the title for us. Having said that - and I'm sure I'll get no support - I would play him ahead of Mascher in a number of these games. The combination of the two doesn't work but unless we need an out and out destroyer I'd pick Lucas instead for a few games since he still offers significantly more going forward.


I don't know why Rafa resists the idea of putting Stevie into the midfield at this point since its clear the centre of the pitch is not working flawlessly. I've maintained for some time that our captain is the only one we have currently who can offer a threat from midfield and Yossi is very capable of making something happen if played in Gerrards position. Perhaps Benitez doesn't believe Gerrard is fit enough (he's clearly carrying an injury) to take the midfield role but I'd try him in there for at least a period of the game.


On a side note, if Aquilani doesn't play this week for a minimum 50 minutes then Rafa needs a slapping from someone handing over their hard earned each week.
[/quote]

Agree with this and will offer my support seeing as I haven't said it myself.

 

[dossena]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37711.msg1008159#msg1008159 date=1260187038]
my dislike of insua growing to the point where I harly notice lucas anymore. in fact I was only drawn to his (lucas) presence when he tripped over his own feet (and his cut back to gerrard to be fair). of all the people in the first team I dislike insua the most. come back dossena all is forgiven.
[/quote]
If you had to pick one to keep, Insua or Babel?

 

[Biggus Dickus]

[quote author=dossena link=topic=37711.msg1008222#msg1008222 date=1260191661]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=37711.msg1008159#msg1008159 date=1260187038]
my dislike of insua growing to the point where I harly notice lucas anymore. in fact I was only drawn to his (lucas) presence when he tripped over his own feet (and his cut back to gerrard to be fair). of all the people in the first team I dislike insua the most. come back dossena all is forgiven.
[/quote]
If you had to pick one to keep, Insua or Babel?
[/quote]

Can't speak for neil obviously but Insua has potential here, Babel does not.

 

[Squiggles]

Only because Rafa has faith in one and not the other.

And he's hardly right all the time, is he.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37711.msg1008288#msg1008288 date=1260197186]
Only because Rafa has faith in one and not the other.

And he's hardly right all the time, is he.
[/quote]

Which players has he sold that he should of kept?