Six Crazy Minutes' Heroes and Curs
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Re: 6CM
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003108#msg1003108 date=1259634106]
Just wondering, got to thinking after re-reading Morse's MOTM thread vs Everton.
Excluding the obvious (Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Voronin and Dossena)
6CM's heroes: Babel, Skrtel, Kuyt, Reina
6CM's curs: Insua, Lucas, Agger
Accurate?
[/quote]
No, not accurate.
This forum tends to rate Agger higher than Skrtel, in everything other than durability. I don't think either is a "cur" or a "hero".
The forum is split on Kuyt.
The forum almost universally loathes Babel, who is nowhere near "hero".
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003108#msg1003108 date=1259634106]
Just wondering, got to thinking after re-reading Morse's MOTM thread vs Everton.
Excluding the obvious (Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Voronin and Dossena)
6CM's heroes: Babel, Skrtel, Kuyt, Reina
6CM's curs: Insua, Lucas, Agger
Accurate?
[/quote]
No, not accurate.
This forum tends to rate Agger higher than Skrtel, in everything other than durability. I don't think either is a "cur" or a "hero".
The forum is split on Kuyt.
The forum almost universally loathes Babel, who is nowhere near "hero".
Great thread title Dossena.
An interesting discussion too. I read quite a few other forums and post on a few, and every single one of them has their own pet loves and hates. This site's whipping boy is undoubtedly Lucas, I've never read such disdain for him on any other site to be fair.
It's quite astonishing.
Similarly, on TRE, they absolutely fucking hate Riise (which this forum never really does), and were the first major forum I frequent to champion the anti-Babel cause.
Different Strokes and all that.
An interesting discussion too. I read quite a few other forums and post on a few, and every single one of them has their own pet loves and hates. This site's whipping boy is undoubtedly Lucas, I've never read such disdain for him on any other site to be fair.
It's quite astonishing.
Similarly, on TRE, they absolutely fucking hate Riise (which this forum never really does), and were the first major forum I frequent to champion the anti-Babel cause.
Different Strokes and all that.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003111#msg1003111 date=1259634697]
I think Agger is comfortably our most talented CB.
[/quote]
I meant Babel, who bar being gleeful for a couple days after that flicked goal, I've never rated.
I think Agger is comfortably our most talented CB.
[/quote]
I meant Babel, who bar being gleeful for a couple days after that flicked goal, I've never rated.
Re: 6CM
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37569.msg1003110#msg1003110 date=1259634575]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003108#msg1003108 date=1259634106]
Just wondering, got to thinking after re-reading Morse's MOTM thread vs Everton.
Excluding the obvious (Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Voronin and Dossena)
6CM's heroes: Babel, Skrtel, Kuyt, Reina
6CM's curs: Insua, Lucas, Agger
Accurate?
[/quote]
No, not accurate.
This forum tends to rate Agger higher than Skrtel, in everything other than durability. I don't think either is a "cur" or a "hero".
I disagree. I think most on this site rate Skrtel very highly, compared to other forums, including rival ones.
The forum is split on Kuyt.
The forum almost universally loathes Babel, who is nowhere near "hero".
A LOT of posters on this site would still keep Babel despite his haplessness, and think that given a run in his favoured position, he'll explode into Titi Henry
[/quote]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37569.msg1003110#msg1003110 date=1259634575]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003108#msg1003108 date=1259634106]
Just wondering, got to thinking after re-reading Morse's MOTM thread vs Everton.
Excluding the obvious (Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Voronin and Dossena)
6CM's heroes: Babel, Skrtel, Kuyt, Reina
6CM's curs: Insua, Lucas, Agger
Accurate?
[/quote]
No, not accurate.
This forum tends to rate Agger higher than Skrtel, in everything other than durability. I don't think either is a "cur" or a "hero".
I disagree. I think most on this site rate Skrtel very highly, compared to other forums, including rival ones.
The forum is split on Kuyt.
The forum almost universally loathes Babel, who is nowhere near "hero".
A LOT of posters on this site would still keep Babel despite his haplessness, and think that given a run in his favoured position, he'll explode into Titi Henry
[/quote]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003123#msg1003123 date=1259636234]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37569.msg1003110#msg1003110 date=1259634575]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003108#msg1003108 date=1259634106]
Just wondering, got to thinking after re-reading Morse's MOTM thread vs Everton.
Excluding the obvious (Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Voronin and Dossena)
6CM's heroes: Babel, Skrtel, Kuyt, Reina
6CM's curs: Insua, Lucas, Agger
Accurate?
[/quote]
No, not accurate.
This forum tends to rate Agger higher than Skrtel, in everything other than durability. I don't think either is a "cur" or a "hero".
I disagree. I think most on this site rate Skrtel very highly, compared to other forums, including rival ones.
The forum is split on Kuyt.
The forum almost universally loathes Babel, who is nowhere near "hero".
A LOT of posters on this site would still keep Babel despite his haplessness, and think that given a run in his favoured position, he'll explode into Titi Henry
[/quote]
[/quote]
Who?
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37569.msg1003110#msg1003110 date=1259634575]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003108#msg1003108 date=1259634106]
Just wondering, got to thinking after re-reading Morse's MOTM thread vs Everton.
Excluding the obvious (Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Voronin and Dossena)
6CM's heroes: Babel, Skrtel, Kuyt, Reina
6CM's curs: Insua, Lucas, Agger
Accurate?
[/quote]
No, not accurate.
This forum tends to rate Agger higher than Skrtel, in everything other than durability. I don't think either is a "cur" or a "hero".
I disagree. I think most on this site rate Skrtel very highly, compared to other forums, including rival ones.
The forum is split on Kuyt.
The forum almost universally loathes Babel, who is nowhere near "hero".
A LOT of posters on this site would still keep Babel despite his haplessness, and think that given a run in his favoured position, he'll explode into Titi Henry
[/quote]
[/quote]
Who?
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37569.msg1003115#msg1003115 date=1259635610]
Great thread title Dossena.
An interesting discussion too. I read quite a few other forums and post on a few, and every single one of them has their own pet loves and hates. This site's whipping boy is undoubtedly Lucas, I've never read such disdain for him on any other site to be fair.
It's quite astonishing.
Similarly, on TRE, they absolutely fucking hate Riise (which this forum never really does), and were the first major forum I frequent to champion the anti-Babel cause.
Different Strokes and all that.
[/quote]
Redcafe in general don't rate Carra and Johnson at all.
They absolutely love Torres and Alonso though.
This Arsenal forum that my cousin is a member of don't rate Reina nor Benitez.
Great thread title Dossena.
An interesting discussion too. I read quite a few other forums and post on a few, and every single one of them has their own pet loves and hates. This site's whipping boy is undoubtedly Lucas, I've never read such disdain for him on any other site to be fair.
It's quite astonishing.
Similarly, on TRE, they absolutely fucking hate Riise (which this forum never really does), and were the first major forum I frequent to champion the anti-Babel cause.
Different Strokes and all that.
[/quote]
Redcafe in general don't rate Carra and Johnson at all.
They absolutely love Torres and Alonso though.
This Arsenal forum that my cousin is a member of don't rate Reina nor Benitez.
SCM's consensus for me would be something like:
Heroes: Gerrard, Torres, Reina
Good:
Johnson, Carragher, (one isn't a hero because he hasn't been here long enough, the other isn't lower on current form, because of what he has done)
Benayoun (used to be lower)
Mascherano: support is increasing with recovered form
Agger: only question is his durability
Riera (people are starting to rate him higher now we've remembered what it looks to have a LB in midfield regularly. He faded last season)
Controversial:
Kuyt (support is fading at present, but is cyclical depending on his form, and how the rest of the team is)
Skrtl, has faded and been the more comfortable scapegoat to Carragher, his heading is quite suspect
Loathed:
Lucas
Babel
Voronin
Dossena
Insua (a bit unfair as far as I'm concerned)
Heroes: Gerrard, Torres, Reina
Good:
Johnson, Carragher, (one isn't a hero because he hasn't been here long enough, the other isn't lower on current form, because of what he has done)
Benayoun (used to be lower)
Mascherano: support is increasing with recovered form
Agger: only question is his durability
Riera (people are starting to rate him higher now we've remembered what it looks to have a LB in midfield regularly. He faded last season)
Controversial:
Kuyt (support is fading at present, but is cyclical depending on his form, and how the rest of the team is)
Skrtl, has faded and been the more comfortable scapegoat to Carragher, his heading is quite suspect
Loathed:
Lucas
Babel
Voronin
Dossena
Insua (a bit unfair as far as I'm concerned)
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
He is right in this case. Reina is very much underrated by rival fans.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
He is right in this case. Reina is very much underrated by rival fans.
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003210#msg1003210 date=1259648385]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
He is right in this case. Reina is very much underrated by rival fans.
[/quote]
Reina should have been on the Ballon D'or ballot.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
He is right in this case. Reina is very much underrated by rival fans.
[/quote]
Reina should have been on the Ballon D'or ballot.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
Ha I didn't say I didn't rate him I said rival fans.
I didn't rate Reina as highly as others in his frist two seasons here but he has convinced me since that he is the best the league.
Outside of Anfield however many see him as a great shot stopper who is prone to big mistakes.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
Ha I didn't say I didn't rate him I said rival fans.
I didn't rate Reina as highly as others in his frist two seasons here but he has convinced me since that he is the best the league.
Outside of Anfield however many see him as a great shot stopper who is prone to big mistakes.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003217#msg1003217 date=1259649200]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
Ha I didn't say I didn't rate him I said rival fans.
I didn't rate Reina as highly as others in his frist two seasons here but he has convinced me since that he is the best the league.
Outside of Anfield however many see him as a great shot stopper who is prone to big mistakes.
[/quote]
Strange isn't it? Other than the CL QF against Chelsea, he's been error-free for a few years now.
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
Ha I didn't say I didn't rate him I said rival fans.
I didn't rate Reina as highly as others in his frist two seasons here but he has convinced me since that he is the best the league.
Outside of Anfield however many see him as a great shot stopper who is prone to big mistakes.
[/quote]
Strange isn't it? Other than the CL QF against Chelsea, he's been error-free for a few years now.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
That is very true - Mancs I know compare him to Barthez which is insane. But then again, I think it's down to the fact that to judge a keeper, you really need to watch every game throughout a whole season.
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
That is very true - Mancs I know compare him to Barthez which is insane. But then again, I think it's down to the fact that to judge a keeper, you really need to watch every game throughout a whole season.
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37569.msg1003145#msg1003145 date=1259639107]
SCM's consensus for me would be something like:
Heroes: Gerrard, Torres, Reina
Good:
Johnson, Carragher, (one isn't a hero because he hasn't been here long enough, the other isn't lower on current form, because of what he has done)
Benayoun (used to be lower)
Mascherano: support is increasing with recovered form
Agger: only question is his durability
Riera (people are starting to rate him higher now we've remembered what it looks to have a LB in midfield regularly. He faded last season)
Controversial:
Kuyt (support is fading at present, but is cyclical depending on his form, and how the rest of the team is)
Skrtl, has faded and been the more comfortable scapegoat to Carragher, his heading is quite suspect
Loathed:
Lucas
Babel
Voronin
Dossena
Insua (a bit unfair as far as I'm concerned)
[/quote]
That's pretty much the best analysis of the opinions on here.
However, I also think that the opinion of this forum comes up with probably the most objective assessment of our squad. You actually don't get that on any other LFC forum - most of them are absolutely illogical.
SCM's consensus for me would be something like:
Heroes: Gerrard, Torres, Reina
Good:
Johnson, Carragher, (one isn't a hero because he hasn't been here long enough, the other isn't lower on current form, because of what he has done)
Benayoun (used to be lower)
Mascherano: support is increasing with recovered form
Agger: only question is his durability
Riera (people are starting to rate him higher now we've remembered what it looks to have a LB in midfield regularly. He faded last season)
Controversial:
Kuyt (support is fading at present, but is cyclical depending on his form, and how the rest of the team is)
Skrtl, has faded and been the more comfortable scapegoat to Carragher, his heading is quite suspect
Loathed:
Lucas
Babel
Voronin
Dossena
Insua (a bit unfair as far as I'm concerned)
[/quote]
That's pretty much the best analysis of the opinions on here.
However, I also think that the opinion of this forum comes up with probably the most objective assessment of our squad. You actually don't get that on any other LFC forum - most of them are absolutely illogical.
Difficult one.
Heroes is easy, in that most sane people universally love Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Reina, Magic, Masher et al (although Carra's star is waning)
Support for Benayoun has grown. Ditto Agger (although that's more about absence making the heart grow fonder, as he he hasn't been fit and in the team for any length of time foe two years)
The Forum has always been split on Dirk Kuyt, Skittles, Riise, Riera etc. I think there was also a pretty big split regarding Alonso, especially before last season.
I would say that Babel is almost universally despised, although the very far end of *that* spectrum is Voronin.
Genuinely shit players that are acknowledged as such include Drosenna and Lucas. Although Lucas has been up and down in terms of popularity as people do the usual "told you so" posts after he doesn't play shit for once, or "he's only 22, and is getting better". But generally I think if we did a poll, he wouldn't come out of it very well.
Rightly so, because he is shit.
Heroes is easy, in that most sane people universally love Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Reina, Magic, Masher et al (although Carra's star is waning)
Support for Benayoun has grown. Ditto Agger (although that's more about absence making the heart grow fonder, as he he hasn't been fit and in the team for any length of time foe two years)
The Forum has always been split on Dirk Kuyt, Skittles, Riise, Riera etc. I think there was also a pretty big split regarding Alonso, especially before last season.
I would say that Babel is almost universally despised, although the very far end of *that* spectrum is Voronin.
Genuinely shit players that are acknowledged as such include Drosenna and Lucas. Although Lucas has been up and down in terms of popularity as people do the usual "told you so" posts after he doesn't play shit for once, or "he's only 22, and is getting better". But generally I think if we did a poll, he wouldn't come out of it very well.
Rightly so, because he is shit.
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=37569.msg1003213#msg1003213 date=1259648450]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003210#msg1003210 date=1259648385]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
He is right in this case. Reina is very much underrated by rival fans.
[/quote]
Reina should have been on the Ballon D'or ballot.
[/quote]
Not easy for a goalkeeper who's won fuck all in 2009. No matter how good he is.
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003210#msg1003210 date=1259648385]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37569.msg1003177#msg1003177 date=1259644944]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=37569.msg1003174#msg1003174 date=1259644659]
I've yet to meet a rival fan that rated Carra or Reina anywhere near as high as we do.
[/quote]
Are you being serious? You're still the only I've ever seen who rates Cech higher than him
[/quote]
He is right in this case. Reina is very much underrated by rival fans.
[/quote]
Reina should have been on the Ballon D'or ballot.
[/quote]
Not easy for a goalkeeper who's won fuck all in 2009. No matter how good he is.
Fair points made about Reina. I suspect all Liverpool fans know he's amazing but other fans don't seem to rate him as highly. Not sure why.
What do other forums tend to think of Aurelio? The general perception on here seems to be that he is good but very unlucky with all the injuries.
What do other forums tend to think of Aurelio? The general perception on here seems to be that he is good but very unlucky with all the injuries.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=37569.msg1003316#msg1003316 date=1259663413]
Fair points made about Reina. I suspect all Liverpool fans know he's amazing but other fans don't seem to rate him as highly. Not sure why.
[/quote]
It's because he's not flashy. Personally I like that in a keeper. There's no-one in the Prem I'd sooner have in goal, and that includes Petr Cech.
Fair points made about Reina. I suspect all Liverpool fans know he's amazing but other fans don't seem to rate him as highly. Not sure why.
[/quote]
It's because he's not flashy. Personally I like that in a keeper. There's no-one in the Prem I'd sooner have in goal, and that includes Petr Cech.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37569.msg1003335#msg1003335 date=1259665008]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[/quote]
Certainly, but we have good players outside of those two like Reina and Agger.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[/quote]
Certainly, but we have good players outside of those two like Reina and Agger.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003345#msg1003345 date=1259665488]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37569.msg1003335#msg1003335 date=1259665008]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[/quote]
Certainly, but we have good players outside of those two like Reina and Agger.
[/quote]
^^
+
Johnson, Carra and Mascherano.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37569.msg1003335#msg1003335 date=1259665008]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[/quote]
Certainly, but we have good players outside of those two like Reina and Agger.
[/quote]
^^
+
Johnson, Carra and Mascherano.
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37569.msg1003346#msg1003346 date=1259665655]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003345#msg1003345 date=1259665488]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37569.msg1003335#msg1003335 date=1259665008]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[/quote]
Certainly, but we have good players outside of those two like Reina and Agger.
[/quote]
^^
+
Johnson, Carra and Mascherano.
[/quote]
Yes, an excellent keeper, three good defenders and a holding player.
We wouldn't lose many.*
*apart from this season, when we've lost loads.
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003345#msg1003345 date=1259665488]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=37569.msg1003335#msg1003335 date=1259665008]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=37569.msg1003327#msg1003327 date=1259664684]
I agree with Dossena, most rival fans I speak to think that our team is very average outside Torres and Gerrard, but most rival fans are cunts when it comes to oour club.
[/quote]
Take those two out of our team for a whole season and we would be an average side.
[/quote]
Certainly, but we have good players outside of those two like Reina and Agger.
[/quote]
^^
+
Johnson, Carra and Mascherano.
[/quote]
Yes, an excellent keeper, three good defenders and a holding player.
We wouldn't lose many.*
*apart from this season, when we've lost loads.
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