Shit hits fan

[Molbystwin]

Wow.... where did all this come from!!

in short do I think that Suarez racially abused Evra by calling him nigger?

No he didn’t , having lived in Hispanic culture and having many South American pals they just just do have different linguistic standards than the ones we now apply here.. they simply do....

If I was a South American from a working class mixed race background and an opponent told me take your hands of me “South American” I might consider there to be a few loaded extra lumps of racism in that and I may well respond in kind. Did Suarez call him a negro In the same way a redneck from Alabama would?

No... he just wasn’t willing to temper his address of his opponent just like Evra knowingly didn’t temper his.

Both should have been banned or both ignored.... pointing the finger at Suarez for racism was unfair.

 

[Rosco]

Yadda Yadda Yadda.

Evra was a Manc = Evra is a cunt.

You can shove your citations, paragraphs and legalistic mumbo jumbo up yer hoop.

There's no legalistic mumbo jumbo involved.

Suarez admitted to referring to Evra's skin colour while the two were having an altercation. It could only go one way after that.

 

[gkmacca]

Don't say 'mumbo jumbo' - that could get you reported, too!

 

[dantes]

There's no legalistic mumbo jumbo involved.

Suarez admitted to referring to Evra's skin colour while the two were having an altercation. It could only go one way after that.

There is always another way. The public order act requires intention behind the words to be an offence. The FA copy pasted their rules from that public order act, but left out the notes at the bottom of the legislation that stipulate that you need intention. Then they had Suarez before them, his intention was not racist, so they at this point for the first time set the precedent that you know what, these rules we have to apply, they ought to be strict liability after all, we know better than the house of lords which passed the act, so yeah, no intention needed. Our solicitor like a fucking moron nodded his head. That is the reason it went one way after that.

That is also why I now laugh at how stupidly the fa and the country as a whole deal with racism. The England ladies player being the most recent example. And I think fuck them all, you get racially abuse? Tough luck, suck it up and live with it, or else get a world class lawyer. Because the rules no longer apply to racism in the actual sense of the word, and you were wanking yourself over it when it allowed you to ban our best player in a vindictive 'kick it out' witch hunt. So now all of a sudden the rules are allowing old white men to get away with saying your family have ebola, well hahahaha good because you deserve it you virtue signalling fake cunts.

 

[Rosco]

What do you think his intent was Dantes ?

Bearing in mind they were clearly having a row.

 

[dantes]

What do you think his intent was Dantes ?

Bearing in mind they were clearly having a row.

The intention was either racist (if Suarez had learned what negro means here, and used that to update his vocabulary) or the intention was friendly (if Suarez was using his native vocabulary). He said it was the latter, which is the evidence before the FA. I personally believe him.

The row could have escalated afterwards. When you get into a row with your wife, it starts with "Hey, honey, hey can we talk" and so forth. The FA is translating honey from English to Mandarin, saying it means yellow over there, then inferring from the subsequent row that it was racist to say honey.

 

[Rosco]

So you're ignoring the expert evidence on the language aspect then ?

 

[dantes]

The reason I believe him is because a racist would be extremely unlikely to ever admit using the words in the first place. EBJT for example. Suarez didn't deny it, but tried to explain himself.

 

[dantes]

So you're ignoring the expert evidence on the language aspect then ?

Yes, because you could just as easily call two experts to contradict his opinion. Just because they weren't called by the fair and unbiased fa, doesn't change the zero weight I attach to an opinion.

 

[Hansern]

Given the evidence and that obviously something happened, you can understand why the verdict ended with such a lenghty ban.
But given Evras past, being labelled an unreliable witness and the fact that he couldnt remember if it was 5,7 or 10 times. You'd think we would have had a better chance at the time to either get the case thrown out or the ban reduced to a few games only.

We certainly didnt handle this very well from a legal perpspective.

 

[Judge Jules]

...added to which the FA hired a very prominent barrister indeed to present their case, way above the level one might have expected, so we were hopelessly outmatched from that point of view as well. The fact that they were gunning for Suarez is and always was written all over this.

 

[Halmeister]

Without wanting to really dig this all up again... as a Spanish speaker, I feel I can comment. If Suarez said "Por que, negro?" that is fine in Spanish/South American culture. It's not racist to call a black man a black man, is it? Strange, perhaps, in our culture, but not malicious in theirs. I lived in Spain, and Spanish people I knew regularly called black friends of theirs "negro/negra" or "negrito/negrita". There's even a brand of rum in Spain called negrita.

But if he said, "Porque eres negro", then that's quite clearly "because you're black", the intention to cause offence. He may have said this to Evra if Evra called him a "Sudaca" which is a very offensive term for a South American. Suarez may have responded in kind with the more offensive response. If Evra called him "sudamericano" that's fine, just calling someone a South American.

What I think probably happened was Evra called him a Sudaca (the offensive term) and Suarez responded in kind with the racial slur. Evra then "lied" and played the victim saying he only called him a South American, then Suarez, Kuyt and Comolli, in true Liverpool FC fashion, ballsed the situation up.

I believe if you punish one, you have to punish the other, but the FA being as incompetent as they are, glossed over the "South American" comment without really trying to understand its connotation.

 

[Judge Jules]

For once I don't think it was a question of FA incompetence as such. Heaven knows they often are incompetent, but IMO in this case it was more a matter of them having bigger fish to fry. Blatter had just caused a hoohah with some statement about too much being made of racism in football ("should stay on the football field" or some such) and the FA, which was prominent in the anti-Blatter camp, saw and took an opportunity to deride his statement by turning the Suarez case into a high profile cause célèbre. There's certainly a case to be made for the view that their whole disciplinary process is grossly unbalanced and that this demonstrates incompetence on a grand scale, but even a fair and reasonable process would almost certainly have reached the conclusion the FA wanted it to reach in this case. They'd have made sure of that.

Agree otherwise. A properly even-handed process would indeed have punished both or neither.

 

[kingjulian]

I just think that after all that expensive education to clear bar, Rosco can't bring more than being a parrot to the table......

It's a crying shame, that a Mr know it all Dantes actually tries to apply logic, while Rosco sticks to..." The expert said...." then I realized all layers are cunts who ignore logic and just shout down those who oppose their view...

 

[Atlas]

Can mods pls extract all the Suarez is a shit debate from this thread and add it to the 4 gazillion page thread we had when it was relevant 4 Fricking years ago.

I quite like this thread remaining an Evra Is a shit thread.

 

[dantes]

Lawyers are one of the groups at risk of being replaced by algorithms. It's already started to happen in the finance sector. So if one of the investment bank buildings gets blown up in the coming months it may not necessarily be ISIS.

 

[Molbystwin]

Without wanting to really dig this all up again... as a Spanish speaker, I feel I can comment. If Suarez said "Por que, negro?" that is fine in Spanish/South American culture. It's not racist to call a black man a black man, is it? Strange, perhaps, in our culture, but not malicious in theirs. I lived in Spain, and Spanish people I knew regularly called black friends of theirs "negro/negra" or "negrito/negrita". There's even a brand of rum in Spain called negrita.

But if he said, "Porque eres negro", then that's quite clearly "because you're black", the intention to cause offence. He may have said this to Evra if Evra called him a "Sudaca" which is a very offensive term for a South American. Suarez may have responded in kind with the more offensive response. If Evra called him "sudamericano" that's fine, just calling someone a South American.

What I think probably happened was Evra called him a Sudaca (the offensive term) and Suarez responded in kind with the racial slur. Evra then "lied" and played the victim saying he only called him a South American, then Suarez, Kuyt and Comolli, in true Liverpool FC fashion, ballsed the situation up.

I believe if you punish one, you have to punish the other, but the FA being as incompetent as they are, glossed over the "South American" comment without really trying to understand its connotation.

Put far more eloquently than I did and having also lived in a Hispanic culture I completely agree with what you are saying here, if Evra did call him sudaca, which basically insinuates you are a sweaty South American then Suarez wouldn’t have thought twice about his skin descriptive response. I have no clue what the law is and take less interest in it to be honest. If Evra did actually mention that Suarez was South American why did he get away with that? Is it important where Suarez was from in the world during the game? No... Evra was possibly just being a cunt and got a response he deserved in kind. Even after the scandal Suarez never admitted guilt nor did he clearly wish to be portrayed as the racist and that then carried on through to the handshake incident. If he had said “ I will touch who I want African” is that linguistically any more racist?

Evra won in the end and the FA rolled over for the Mancs because they were probably worried about condoning racism against black players I personally suspect it was at the very worst a two way street and I am not going to point the finger at Luis.

 

[Brizzle]

To be fair it is quite interesting looking back at it when the dust has settled a bit.

 

[Spionkop69]

As soon as I saw the incident reported, I knew that any thread in here on the subject would end up where it is.

I Love being right.

 

[rurikbird]

As soon as I saw the incident reported, I knew that any thread in here on the subject would end up where it is.

I Love being right.

It's just the half-point, my friend. We know from experience that every thread let run long enough will end up being about Lucas. It's the SCM law of entropy.