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Ryan Babel

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[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38959.msg1056844#msg1056844 date=1266614008]

Practically every time he's scored as a sub he's been rewarded with a start in the next match, [/quote]

*cough* bullshit *cough*
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38959.msg1056939#msg1056939 date=1266653886]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38959.msg1056844#msg1056844 date=1266614008]

Practically every time he's scored as a sub he's been rewarded with a start in the next match, [/quote]

*cough* bullshit *cough*
[/quote]

Considering you've spent most of the time you've defended him on here saying that it's unfair how he's always dropped after one start (which has usually followed a good sub appearance), how is it 'bullshit'?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38959.msg1056940#msg1056940 date=1266654416]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38959.msg1056939#msg1056939 date=1266653886]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38959.msg1056844#msg1056844 date=1266614008]

Practically every time he's scored as a sub he's been rewarded with a start in the next match, [/quote]

*cough* bullshit *cough*
[/quote]

Considering you've spent most of the time you've defended him on here saying that it's unfair how he's always dropped after one start (which has usually followed a good sub appearance), how is it 'bullshit'?
[/quote]


I don't think he is rewarded with starts after goals, but the truth is I'm speculating here. I think the reason I defend babel (cause let's face it I'm not blind to his shortcomings) is because he isn't played for a few games in a row warts and all. seriously what fucking harm could it do?

players need games, its pointess giving someone a game here and there and expecting them to progress. you're born with the ability to trap a ball but a lot of things concerning football comes through experience. the sitituation with babel and say yossi is the latter was playing regulaly during his FORMATIVE years babel has spent his formative years on the bench. basically I'm going to stick my hands in my ears and go 'la-la-la' because people think babel has been given enough chances, well frankly I don't think he has espeically when I've seen benitez give useless cunts like morientes a string of games whilst contributing precisily fuck all.
 
an example is johnson who was fucking USELESS for chelsea and was in and out of the side during his formative years, when to pompy give a consistant run and matured to a totally different player, and it will take more time to iron out his laspes in concentration. if he'd stayed at chelsea and continued as a bit part player with minutes here and there he wouldn't have progressed. another example is warnock whilst he was at liverpool.

ah, fuck this, babel will be gone in the summer and I can find another favorite player to give the kiss of death to.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38959.msg1056950#msg1056950 date=1266656878]
an example is johnson who was fucking USELESS for chelsea and was in and out of the side during his formative years, when to pompy give a consistant run and matured to a totally different player, and it will take more time to iron out his laspes in concentration. if he'd stayed at chelsea and continued as a bit part player with minutes here and there he wouldn't have progressed. another example is warnock whilst he was at liverpool.

ah, fuck this, babel will be gone in the summer and I can find another favorite player to give the kiss of death to.
[/quote]

Johnson wasn't 'useless' for Chelsea, he barely got a look in because he usually had a £20m right back infront of him in the pecking order. Most Chelsea fans were gutted they sold him.

I get your point re playing time, fair enough, but saying he hasn't had chances is rubbish, he has, he just hasn't had many recently because patience has seemingly wore thin with both the manager and the supporters. He's had opportunities, whether it ne following up a good sub appearance with a start or being given the perfect opportunity to show what he can do against minor opposition (how many starts has he had in the league cup?), and he's failed practically every single time.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38959.msg1056289#msg1056289 date=1266532472]
From the post-Arsenal thread...

A decent cameo from Babel, but the opportunity was there for him. He'll always be better when he comes on as a sub in games with zero risk. With space to move into, against tired opposition, and no defensive requirements rom him, he can be dangerous. It's when Walcott looks most dangerous too, for good reason.
Click to expand...


[/quote]

Wow, what a surprise.
 
# of times in possession:

Mascherano - 60
Lucas - 49
Gerrard - 38
Maxi - 22
Babel - 12

I know he was substituted earlier than some, but fuck me that's bad.
 
That's also why Masher has such a high pass completion rate, he's simply on the ball more than most.

Although, TBH, I loathe statistics in football - but I think in this case it does serve to highlight how the positions Babel takes up just aren't threatening enough. However the distribution today generally was so poor to the attacking areas, I'd be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt for now.

Still, it's hardly ringing endorsement for the 'Babel is actually a striker' crowd.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38959.msg1057762#msg1057762 date=1266806308]
That's also why Masher has such a high pass completion rate, he's simply on the ball more than most.

Although, TBH, I loathe statistics in football - but I think in this case it does serve to highlight how the positions Babel takes up just aren't threatening enough. However the distribution today generally was so poor to the attacking areas, I'd be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt for now.

Still, it's hardly ringing endorsement for the 'Babel is actually a striker' crowd.

[/quote]

It's all fair and well having the pace of a gazelle, a whalloping shot, and brute strenght, but if you don't have the brains or ability to find space then you're fucking useless. I mentioned this in reference to Huntelaar the other day, and in regard to last weeks "pace" debate. We don't necessarily need quick players, we just need better ones.
 
Babel doesn't seem to have either the intelligence to find space or the confidence to hold and distribute the ball.

He brings little to the table. Impact substitution against tiring opposition seems to be the full extent of his usefulness.
 
I don't think yesterday was really the game to criticise him, he didn't do much but no one did, the service was shite and he generally looked the only one capable of getting in behind City (who defended very well too). Add the ball to the face which clearly knocked him for six, he was unfortunate.

He is what he is, brainless and everything else, but I've got equal disdain for Riera, he's such a nonchalant cunt and seems to grace the pitch with the assumption that he's too good. He's not, he's a tidy player who's sluggish in terms of pace and sluggish in terms of effort. For that reason alone I'd give Babel another run out against Blackburn, just for the sake of it. We need to try something and Riera delivered an epic fail (even by Babel's standards) midweek.
 
I felt sorry for babel because little commited so few players to the attack, that's why the passing was so disjointed, there were too few players TO pass to. the people in attack were expected to go on mazey runs as that was the only way were going to get the ball to the box short of hoofing it.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38959.msg1057871#msg1057871 date=1266836599]
I still like Babel.
[/quote]

enjoy him for the next three months because he'll be gone in the summer, no if buts or maybies.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38959.msg1057871#msg1057871 date=1266836599]
I still like Babel.
[/quote]

I still like him too, but he needs to move on if he wants to have a shot at a decent career. He won't have it here.

I do find it ironic how a few posters slam him with such hatred and 'repeated' comments (Not you Mark, don't worry) and then bitch and moan at other posters when the same is done to their favorite players (who they, heaven forbid, hold biased opinions about).
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38959.msg1057873#msg1057873 date=1266836783]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38959.msg1057871#msg1057871 date=1266836599]
I still like Babel.
[/quote]

enjoy him for the next three months because he'll be gone in the summer, no if buts or maybies.
[/quote]
Probably so.

That doesn't change the way I feel about him.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38959.msg1057875#msg1057875 date=1266836880]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38959.msg1057873#msg1057873 date=1266836783]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38959.msg1057871#msg1057871 date=1266836599]
I still like Babel.
[/quote]

enjoy him for the next three months because he'll be gone in the summer, no if buts or maybies.
[/quote]
Probably so.

That doesn't change the way I feel about him.
[/quote]

I'm a babel but I can be objective about him. babel's problem broken down

a) he is as fast as fuck but refuses to use his pace
babel has it in his head he has the skill to take players on, maybe he does maybe doesn't what he SHOULD be doing is staying in a wide position getting the defender to challenge him and then stripping them for pace, but every time he moves inside where as much as three players can block his path and more often than not he tends to just run into them.

also with the pace he possesses he should be busting a lung to get into the box each and everytime we break, there so be absolutely no excuse for babel to no be in the box when he doesn't have the ball and we are attacking. he rarely tracks backs and has pace.

b) babel's runs are absolutely terrible
when you make good runs you almost tell the person with the ball where to play it but babel's runs are all over the place and completely headless. fuck sake babel watch some dvd's of top strikers, watch where they move when the attacking player has the ball.

c) so someone so well built he doesn't use his strenght
he should be swatting defenders aside like flies, as we've seen its really hard to shrug him off the ball when he decides the sheild it (the ball).

in short babel does himself no favors and even someone with little intelligence on the ball should be far more effective when using the sheer physical attributes he has been blessed with. look at purple aki as a great example.
I get the impression the trainers at melwood at attempting to mold babel into something he is not rather than focusing on the attributes he HAS.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38959.msg1057873#msg1057873 date=1266836783]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38959.msg1057871#msg1057871 date=1266836599]
I still like Babel.
[/quote]

enjoy him for the next three months because he'll be gone in the summer, no if buts or maybies.
[/quote]
Fingers crossed.
 
He seems to have no idea what to do to beat a man, he surges forward menacingly with the ball, a defender pops up and he shits himself. He rarely goes outside them, (when he does he is at his most effective) and instead of using his pace and momentum, seems to slow down to try and wrong foot the defender by cutting in front of them. All that happens there is the defender sticks his foot out takes the ball off him and Babel goes scampering past.
He is not greedy enough to play up front and is to happy to pass to someone in a worse position.

Just accept it lads, he just isn't going to be good enough, and it has nothing to do with runs in the team or inexperience, it's state of mind


regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38959.msg1057890#msg1057890 date=1266839153]
He seems to have no idea what to do to beat a man, he surges forward menacingly with the ball, a defender pops up and he shits himself. He rarely goes outside them, (when he does he is at his most effective) and instead of using his pace and momentum, seems to slow down to try and wrong foot the defender by cutting in front of them. All that happens there is the defender sticks his foot out takes the ball off him and Babel goes scampering past.
He is not greedy enough to play up front and is to happy to pass to someone in a worse position.

Just accept it lads, he just isn't going to be good enough, and it has nothing to do with runs in the team or inexperience, it's state of mind


regards
[/quote]

hopefully his cameo appearances will help us secure 4th.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38959.msg1057890#msg1057890 date=1266839153]
He seems to have no idea what to do to beat a man, he surges forward menacingly with the ball, a defender pops up and he shits himself. He rarely goes outside them, (when he does he is at his most effective) and instead of using his pace and momentum, seems to slow down to try and wrong foot the defender by cutting in front of them. All that happens there is the defender sticks his foot out takes the ball off him and Babel goes scampering past.
He is not greedy enough to play up front and is to happy to pass to someone in a worse position.

Just accept it lads, he just isn't going to be good enough, and it has nothing to do with runs in the team or inexperience, it's state of mind


regards
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. The funny thing is, if Ryan Babel actually tried to go around his man more often, the defender wouldn't know he was coming inside 99% of the time and he'd keep them guessing. Despite his physical gifts, he's far too easy to defend against. If he had a bit of variety about him, defenders would begin to fear him and he might even buy himself an extra yard of space through uncertainty alone. I mean, he has the pace that he shouldn't need a massive amount of skill to beat a man, he just needs to do everything with a little more conviction.

As you say though, he is mentally feeble and chronically indecisive, and that hasn't shown any signs of changing during his time here. Holland was perfect for him, and even his record there was distinctly average. I guess Italy might be another option...
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38959.msg1057906#msg1057906 date=1266840956]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38959.msg1057890#msg1057890 date=1266839153]
He seems to have no idea what to do to beat a man, he surges forward menacingly with the ball, a defender pops up and he shits himself. He rarely goes outside them, (when he does he is at his most effective) and instead of using his pace and momentum, seems to slow down to try and wrong foot the defender by cutting in front of them. All that happens there is the defender sticks his foot out takes the ball off him and Babel goes scampering past.
He is not greedy enough to play up front and is to happy to pass to someone in a worse position.

Just accept it lads, he just isn't going to be good enough, and it has nothing to do with runs in the team or inexperience, it's state of mind


regards
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. The funny thing is, if Ryan Babel actually tried to go around his man more often, the defender wouldn't know he was coming inside 99% of the time and he'd keep them guessing. Despite his physical gifts, he's far too easy to defend against. If he had a bit of variety about him, defenders would begin to fear him and he might even buy himself an extra yard of space through uncertainty alone. I mean, he has the pace that he shouldn't need a massive amount of skill to beat a man, he just needs to do everything with a little more conviction.

As you say though, he is mentally feeble and chronically indecisive, and that hasn't shown any signs of changing during his time here. Holland was perfect for him, and even his record there was distinctly average. I guess Italy might be another option...
[/quote]

These two posts have hit the nail on the head in my opinion. Ironically enough the attributes that Babel doesn't have, the likes of Lucas or Ngog have in spades. Mental strength, strength of character, temperament if you will, are important to have at a club like ours. It cannot be underestimated. It is the stuff that made the likes of Carragher,a limited player technically, into a giant of a player for us. Babel may or may not have his uses, but he will never be a 'go to' player for us sadly.

I believe that Babel's natural gifts have held him back. When you have God-given gifts, its easy to not work hard enough and develop the 'psyche' necessary to succeed. I imagine Babel's career had gone quite easily until he came to Liverpool where he had to really work to earn a place and keep it probably for the first time in his life.
 
It doesn't help, when a player like Babel who likes to cut inside DOESN'T have an overlapping full back making a run and taking the attention of a defender.

Too often he's faced with beating 2 defenders (as is Kuyt/Gerrard/Torres) where he gets disposessed quite easily.

Whenever he's one on one with a full back he's shown he can be quite dangerous.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38959.msg1058018#msg1058018 date=1266851320]
It doesn't help, when a player like Babel who likes to cut inside DOESN'T have an overlapping full back making a run and taking the attention of a defender.

Too often he's faced with beating 2 defenders (as is Kuyt/Gerrard/Torres) where he gets disposessed quite easily.

Whenever he's one on one with a full back he's shown he can be quite dangerous.
[/quote]

I must keep missing that Murph 😉


regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38959.msg1058021#msg1058021 date=1266851480]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38959.msg1058018#msg1058018 date=1266851320]
It doesn't help, when a player like Babel who likes to cut inside DOESN'T have an overlapping full back making a run and taking the attention of a defender.

Too often he's faced with beating 2 defenders (as is Kuyt/Gerrard/Torres) where he gets disposessed quite easily.

Whenever he's one on one with a full back he's shown he can be quite dangerous.
[/quote]

I must keep missing that Murph 😉


regards
[/quote]

Well it's not often he finds himself one on one with a full back.

When he is, I'd hazard a guess that he's got a 50%* success rate of beating them and getting away a shot or cross (wherever they're good ones, that's a whole different matter).



*This percentage was pulled from my arse.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38959.msg1057914#msg1057914 date=1266842206]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38959.msg1057906#msg1057906 date=1266840956]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38959.msg1057890#msg1057890 date=1266839153]
He seems to have no idea what to do to beat a man, he surges forward menacingly with the ball, a defender pops up and he shits himself. He rarely goes outside them, (when he does he is at his most effective) and instead of using his pace and momentum, seems to slow down to try and wrong foot the defender by cutting in front of them. All that happens there is the defender sticks his foot out takes the ball off him and Babel goes scampering past.
He is not greedy enough to play up front and is to happy to pass to someone in a worse position.

Just accept it lads, he just isn't going to be good enough, and it has nothing to do with runs in the team or inexperience, it's state of mind


regards
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. The funny thing is, if Ryan Babel actually tried to go around his man more often, the defender wouldn't know he was coming inside 99% of the time and he'd keep them guessing. Despite his physical gifts, he's far too easy to defend against. If he had a bit of variety about him, defenders would begin to fear him and he might even buy himself an extra yard of space through uncertainty alone. I mean, he has the pace that he shouldn't need a massive amount of skill to beat a man, he just needs to do everything with a little more conviction.

As you say though, he is mentally feeble and chronically indecisive, and that hasn't shown any signs of changing during his time here. Holland was perfect for him, and even his record there was distinctly average. I guess Italy might be another option...
[/quote]

These two posts have hit the nail on the head in my opinion. Ironically enough the attributes that Babel doesn't have, the likes of Lucas or Ngog have in spades. Mental strength, strength of character, temperament if you will, are important to have at a club like ours. It cannot be underestimated. It is the stuff that made the likes of Carragher,a limited player technically, into a giant of a player for us. Babel may or may not have his uses, but he will never be a 'go to' player for us sadly.

I believe that Babel's natural gifts have held him back. When you have God-given gifts, its easy to not work hard enough and develop the 'psyche' necessary to succeed. I imagine Babel's career had gone quite easily until he came to Liverpool where he had to really work to earn a place and keep it probably for the first time in his life.
[/quote]

Yep I think all of that between the three posts is fair and a perfect assessment of him.

By the same token, I'd still give him a go right now because we're so lacking in inspiration, something has to give and if that's giving Babel a go a then so be it. He's had chances and failed to seize the initiative, now he really has to stand out in a side that's suffering.

And Ibro, 50% success rate? Are you having a laugh? more often than not he's either beaten first time, is let down by a poor first touch or runs into too many bodies because he's not decisive enough to find the space to run into.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38959.msg1058024#msg1058024 date=1266851817]
And Ibro, 50% success rate? Are you having a laugh? more often than not he's either beaten first time, is let down by a poor first touch or runs into too many bodies because he's not decisive enough to find the space to run into.


[/quote]

Ok, 25%.
 
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