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Rafa's end of term report

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[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg875993#msg875993 date=1243372546]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875991#msg875991 date=1243372341]
trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed


[/quote]

I couldn't give a fuck about anyone else Rebel. We are Liverpool Football Club and it's our business to win trophies. Our bread and butter is the league so yes, if a manager fails to win it after being considerable time and finances then I'd expect us to take a chance on someone who might. Hey, we might win it. Then again, we might not.

Nice change of direction from your original point. Again.
[/quote]

Ha ha 'Bread and butter is the league'?? We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875994#msg875994 date=1243372577]
im pointing out that it's entirely possible for us to go very close in terms of winning trophy but all that matters is winning the damn trophy right
[/quote]

And what I'm pointing out and what you keep ignoring is *that* up there isn't what you were pointing out and isn't what is being argued.

Your scaremongering and obsession with City spending money is a bit misguided.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg875993#msg875993 date=1243372546]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875991#msg875991 date=1243372341]
trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed


[/quote]

I couldn't give a fuck about anyone else Rebel. We are Liverpool Football Club and it's our business to win trophies. Our bread and butter is the league so yes, if a manager fails to win it after being considerable time and finances then I'd expect us to take a chance on someone who might. Hey, we might win it. Then again, we might not.

Nice change of direction from your original point. Again.
[/quote]

Ha ha 'Bread and butter is the league'?? We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

In my opinion it should be our main objective at the beginning of each season. Yours might be the Champions League. Mine's the league.
 
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=33774.msg875995#msg875995 date=1243372611]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875991#msg875991 date=1243372341]
trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed


[/quote]

If Gerrard slips while taking penalties in two successvive Champions League Finals and Man City spend 'a billion quid', I think Rafa would probably just give up anyway. And so should you.
[/quote]

I'd take CL qualification and wouldn't grumble 😛

England is too competitive now to demand anything and Chelsea taught us a very tough lesson; any club including City can come in with millions and affect things, if you dont believe that and if you believe just saying we're liverpool football club so it shoudn't matter then i have to say that is blinkered.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg876001#msg876001 date=1243372960]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg875993#msg875993 date=1243372546]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875991#msg875991 date=1243372341]
trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed


[/quote]

I couldn't give a fuck about anyone else Rebel. We are Liverpool Football Club and it's our business to win trophies. Our bread and butter is the league so yes, if a manager fails to win it after being considerable time and finances then I'd expect us to take a chance on someone who might. Hey, we might win it. Then again, we might not.

Nice change of direction from your original point. Again.
[/quote]

Ha ha 'Bread and butter is the league'?? We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

In my opinion it should be our main objective at the beginning of each season. Yours might be the Champions League. Mine's the league.
[/quote]

But saying that, the only people in a position to laugh at us are Utd and they're more likely to be laughing at the fact we hadn't won it for that long rather than my credentials as a 'fan'.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

Fuck me here comes another one.

This is precisely why Sheik and everyone else (bar Rebel) won't accept 2nd, 3rd or 4th every season. We've been Champions of England 18 times. Winning cups and particularly winning the league is part of our heritage, it's what sets us apart (or at least, it's what set us apart from Utd until we stopped winning it and they started).
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
Ha ha 'Bread and butter is the league'?? We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

So I guess Torres, Alonso, Masher and all the other top players that have joined us or wanted to join us over the past 20 years have been secretly laughing at us behind our back as well, eh?

We've been on a very long barren run, but the way some people go on, you'd think we were a club like Spurs *.


* I feel like I actually have to point out that we're not, so yeah, we're not.
 
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=33774.msg876005#msg876005 date=1243373193]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

Fuck me here comes another one.

This is precisely why Sheik and everyone else (bar Rebel) won't accept 2nd, 3rd or 4th every season. We've been Champions of England 18 times. Winning cups and particularly winning the league is part of our heritage, it's what sets us apart (or at least, it's what set us apart from Utd until we stopped winning it and they started).
[/quote]

the lower leagues are becoming increasingly littered with once successful clubs persuing glory either through bad financial decisions or poor decisions by the board, fact is in terms of the last 20 years 5 consecutive seasons of CL football is not bad at all and i'd keep that status quo until it needs reviewing. I hope we can win the league and I think we will but to demand it or else is not the way to go about it.
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876009#msg876009 date=1243373530]
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=33774.msg876005#msg876005 date=1243373193]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

Fuck me here comes another one.

This is precisely why Sheik and everyone else (bar Rebel) won't accept 2nd, 3rd or 4th every season. We've been Champions of England 18 times. Winning cups and particularly winning the league is part of our heritage, it's what sets us apart (or at least, it's what set us apart from Utd until we stopped winning it and they started).
[/quote]

the lower leagues are becoming increasingly littered with once successful clubs persuing glory either through bad financial decisions or poor decisions by the board, fact is in terms of the last 20 years 5 consecutive seasons of CL football is not bad at all and i'd keep that status quo until it needs reviewing. I hope we can win the league and I think we will but to demand it or else is not the way to go about it.



[/quote]

I agree Rebel. The cost of a bag of King Eddie's from ASDA has gone up a lot since January. Oh. We haven't reached that tangent just yet.

*Parks it for later*
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876009#msg876009 date=1243373530]
the lower leagues are becoming increasingly littered with once successful clubs persuing glory either through bad financial decisions or poor decisions by the board, fact is in terms of the last 20 years 5 consecutive seasons of CL football is not bad at all and i'd keep that status quo until it needs reviewing. I hope we can win the league and I think we will but to demand it or else is not the way to go about it.
[/quote]

"bad financial decisions or poor decisions by the board" - you being presumptuous again.

"to demand it or else" - no one at all is adopting this attitude. assumptions yet again.
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876009#msg876009 date=1243373530]
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=33774.msg876005#msg876005 date=1243373193]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

Fuck me here comes another one.

This is precisely why Sheik and everyone else (bar Rebel) won't accept 2nd, 3rd or 4th every season. We've been Champions of England 18 times. Winning cups and particularly winning the league is part of our heritage, it's what sets us apart (or at least, it's what set us apart from Utd until we stopped winning it and they started).
[/quote]

the lower leagues are becoming increasingly littered with once successful clubs persuing glory either through bad financial decisions or poor decisions by the board, fact is in terms of the last 20 years 5 consecutive seasons of CL football is not bad at all and i'd keep that status quo until it needs reviewing. I hope we can win the league and I think we will but to demand it or else is not the way to go about it.



[/quote]

Show me a lower league club that has won the English title 18 times or the European Cup 5 times? We're not and never will be a Leeds, a Newcastle or a...Huddersfield Town. We live by a different standard.
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876009#msg876009 date=1243373530]
I hope we can win the league and I think we will but to demand it or else is not the way to go about it.
[/quote]

You said you couldn't care less before.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33774.msg876008#msg876008 date=1243373418]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33774.msg875999#msg875999 date=1243372795]
Ha ha 'Bread and butter is the league'?? We haven't won the fucking thing in 20 years! It's fans like you why other clubs laugh at us. Stuck in the fucking past. it's 2009, not 1979
[/quote]

So I guess Torres, Alonso, Masher and all the other top players that have joined us or wanted to join us over the past 20 years have been secretly laughing at us behind our back as well, eh?

We've been on a very long barren run, but the way some people go on, you'd think we were a club like Spurs *.


* I feel like I actually have to point out that we're not, so yeah, we're not.
[/quote]

think you'll find what attracted them (post - 2007) was probably our runs and progress in the CL, the fact that we have been in CL finals. infact, a few of them openly say the CL is the pinnacle not the English league I bet Sheik wants to throttle them.
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876014#msg876014 date=1243373792]
think you'll find what attracted them (post - 2007) was probably our runs and progress in the CL, the fact that we have been in CL finals. infact, a few of them openly say the CL is the pinnacle not the English league I bet Sheik wants to throttle them.
[/quote]

And before 2007?
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg876013#msg876013 date=1243373762]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876009#msg876009 date=1243373530]
I hope we can win the league and I think we will but to demand it or else is not the way to go about it.
[/quote]

You said you couldn't care less before.
[/quote]

you're taking it out of context.

I do care about the league but in terms of the managers position it shouldn't be a requirement especially if we narrowly miss out
 
I really don't know why Rebel is trying to over-complicate and pick holes in my stance when there is no reason to do so.
I want us to win the league. If the manager can't deliver that after reasonable time and funds then I believe a decision should be made to replace him. I'm not concerned what the money men demand because I get the greatest pleasure in seeing us win trophies not seeing the bank balance straightened. I'm a supporter you see. I don't worry about 'what if'. None of us have a crystal ball. Who is to say that the Steady Eddie Benitez might have a mare next season and misses out on European Football altogether? Highly improbable, as improbable as us all the woe, like doing a Leeds that Rebel would have us believe MIGHT happen!
I want to win to feel the rollercoaster ride of winning the league and the pain and jubilation that comes with it. Rebel wants an easy life, sitting back with his pipe and slippers while Rafa sails us into 4th place.
 
truth is rebel there comes a time when tough choices have to made even if the manager was getting agonisingly close but falling short. look at gh, I probably would have given him another season; regular CL football, a trebel of cups finishes 5th, the following season he finished fourth so he's on the right track again? well we got rid and secured rafa and a season later with gh's squad no less we won the CL.
 
I never said 4th place 😀

if the team is at a good level and we narrowly miss out that is not grounds for sacking as you're not taking other things into account. Souness, Evans and Houllier rightly sacked and some would say not quick enough as the team was clearly not at the right level but you can't say that at the moment in my opinion even though we're winning fuck all.

you have to recognise it's getting increasingly competitive and harder to win things and I dont see that changing, the variance in games and seasons will still be there and just because it doesn't go our way doesn't mean we should sack the manager
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876030#msg876030 date=1243375227]
I never said 4th place 😀
[/quote]

You said achieving Champions League qualification comfortably.
Alright, given this year that means finishing 3rd, I'll bend and say...no, let's make it even more definitive. Would you be happy for us to finish 2nd in the league for the next *picks figure out the sky* say, 10 years?

Bare in mind in that time Utd will have more than likely eclipsed our record. You see, it's about winning trophies so you can be top of the pile, so you can counter any laughs from rival fans by simply pointing out that your team is the most successful, so you can walk round with your chest puffed out, lording it over the others. It's not about finishing 2nd.
 
it depends on the context Sheik but generally i'm happy with CL qualification that is his job otherwise there is fuck all to spend and difficult to attract players and get stronger... if we're in the top 2 for the next 10 years i wouldn't complain though I see it unlikely we would do it without winning it or indeed, winning something to keep everyone happy (in spiders case the FA cup and league cup is enough judging what he said about Houllier)

as for Utd, I thought you dont care about anyone else...
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876036#msg876036 date=1243376096]
it depends on the context
[/quote]

There is no context. It's a simple question. You were happy enough to try and pin me down before and I gave you an honest and direct answer. Would you accept finishing 2nd for the next 10 years?
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876036#msg876036 date=1243376096]

as for Utd, I thought you dont care about anyone else...


[/quote]

I don't care about what they have to spend was my point. Stop avoiding the question.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg876038#msg876038 date=1243376213]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876036#msg876036 date=1243376096]
it depends on the context
[/quote]

There is no context. It's a simple question. You were happy enough to try and pin me down before and I gave you an honest and direct answer. Would you accept finishing 2nd for the next 10 years?
[/quote]

you don;'t need to pin me down, i've answered it pretty much; yes I would accept it but to be in the top 2 for 10 years and not winning it would be the most unfortunate scenario
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876042#msg876042 date=1243376469]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg876038#msg876038 date=1243376213]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876036#msg876036 date=1243376096]
it depends on the context
[/quote]

There is no context. It's a simple question. You were happy enough to try and pin me down before and I gave you an honest and direct answer. Would you accept finishing 2nd for the next 10 years?
[/quote]

you don;'t need to pin me down, i've answered it pretty much; yes I would accept it but to be in the top 2 for 10 years and not winning it would be the most unfortunate scenario
[/quote]

Then you're a defeatist with a loser mentality.

Circle completed.
 
or I'm realistic?

what if we're in the top 2 for 10 years but dont win the league BUT win 4 European cups? would you want rid then?

what if win the FA cup a few times, it's a trophy that's all that's important to some people

you can't predict it really but if we are in the top 2 for 10 years i'll be happy with that and would find it very, very unfortunate if we didn't win the league or anything else, it's a rather extreme hypothetical.
 
Ha.

I see you've added a few more 'bits' to your argument Rebel. It's gone from I couldn't care less about the league and would be happy with comfortable CL qualification to 'I do want to win the league but I'd forego it as long as we won the European Cup 4 out of 10 years.

But ok I'll go along with your new tangent. I don't think we could sack a manager who won the Champions league 4 out of 10 years (although the likelihood of it happening are as remote as us getting relegated) but just to remind you, we haven't won anything for 3 years. But you're happy with that aren't you 'cos the Champions League money keeps coming in. Unfortunately at this moment in time, that cash isn't helping us add trophies to our cabinet.
 
haha no, we're talking different scenario's and different hypotheticals and yes, i'm perfectly happy with the CL cash rolling in if it doesn't I fear for the very future of the club which could head for imminent collapse. I dont think we're in a position to make demands in terms of trophies and just because there aren't clubs 'like' Liverpool that have fallen from grace there are several large ones who have had a spectacular fall and of course this can happen.

I guess I'm more worried about the weight of our debts than whether we win league titles in the near future
 
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg876056#msg876056 date=1243378038]
haha no, we're talking different scenario's and different hypotheticals and yes, i'm perfectly happy with the CL cash rolling in if it doesn't I fear for the very future of the club which could head for imminent collapse. I dont think we're in a position to make demands in terms of trophies and just because there aren't clubs 'like' Liverpool that have fallen from grace there are several large ones who have had a spectacular fall and of course this can happen.

I guess I'm more worried about the weight of our debts than whether we win league titles in the near future
[/quote]

Rebel, I love Rafa probably more than Rafa4Pm and even I don't think that. At some point Rafa has to deliver. He has until we stop improving in my opinion. I realise more than most in this debate, that its a big ask to win the league, but he either does it or we get someone in who can.
 
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