Rafa's end of term report

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875927#msg875927 date=1243369048]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33774.msg875920#msg875920 date=1243368798]
well I wouldn't go as far as rebel as to say I'd be happy with JUST a top four finish every season, surely that is the MINIMUM requirement. my personal opinion is I want a league challenge every season by that I mean being with 4 points of the eventual winners (if we can't win it ourselves) you keep that level of consistancy year in year out eventually you'll win the league. wanting nothing more than a top four finish every season is the ambition of villa or the bitters.
[/quote]

I never said "top 4 finish" I said "QUALIFYING FOR THE CL RELATIVELY EASILY LIKE HE IS"

there is a huge difference.

if we had a shit campaign and just scraped 4th then i'd consider the position of manager, if we have CL wrapped up weeks ago like we just have then you musn't grumble in my opinion. narrowly missing out on trophies is not a sackable offence

[/quote]

Posting bollocks on a website should be though.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=33774.msg875933#msg875933 date=1243369245]
Look, never mind sackable offence or any of that shit, let's just sling the whole sacking issue altogether.

Fundamentally, you are happy not to be winning anything, as long as we qualify for Champions League - yes?
[/quote]

I am happy to be narrowly missing out on trophies but qualifying for the CL, yes of course. the only other position is to say: we must win trophies or Benitez faces the sack, which is absurd and takes nothing else into account

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Fans are meant to want to win things aren't they?

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875939#msg875939 date=1243369574]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=33774.msg875933#msg875933 date=1243369245]
Look, never mind sackable offence or any of that shit, let's just sling the whole sacking issue altogether.

Fundamentally, you are happy not to be winning anything, as long as we qualify for Champions League - yes?
[/quote]

I am happy to be narrowly missing out on trophies but qualifying for the CL, yes of course. the only other position is to say: we must win trophies or Benitez faces the sack, which is absurd and takes nothing else into account


[/quote]

Hmmm . . . you didn't really get that whole "let's forget about the sacking issue" did you?

Never mind, you've made your position clear.

Rebel, with all due respect, you're a loser

 

[KopKing]

I'd give Rafa a 9. To move from 4th to 2nd and learn what it takes to seriously challenge, to have so few defeats and a record amount of points without the services of out two best players for a large portion of the season isn't to be scoffed at. To be within 4 points of the current best team in the world beating them twice is a good achievement.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=33774.msg875948#msg875948 date=1243370258]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875939#msg875939 date=1243369574]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=33774.msg875933#msg875933 date=1243369245]
Look, never mind sackable offence or any of that shit, let's just sling the whole sacking issue altogether.

Fundamentally, you are happy not to be winning anything, as long as we qualify for Champions League - yes?
[/quote]

I am happy to be narrowly missing out on trophies but qualifying for the CL, yes of course. the only other position is to say: we must win trophies or Benitez faces the sack, which is absurd and takes nothing else into account


[/quote]

Hmmm . . . you didn't really get that whole "let's forget about the sacking issue" did you?

Never mind, you've made your position clear.

Rebel, with all due respect, you're a loser
[/quote]

with respect, you don't understand the topic of conversation since we're talking about the position of manager.

ok lets take the sacking out of it, so if we dont win things you're not going to be happy, what will you do? march on Anfield? demand the banks call in loans and sell us to another owner? what is the remedy for this potential unhappiness?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

 

[rebel23]

so sheik, if we dont win anything for the next 3 seasons we can assume you will be unhappy

what would remedy this potential unhappiness, can you answer the question rather than being evasive? or do you accept it's possible to finish with 80+ points for the next 3 years with the team performing at a good level and Benitez doing a good enough job but still win nothing

 

[The Nomad]

A TROPHY REBEL!

 

[rebel23]

and if we don't get a trophy but get 80+ points for the next 3 years we should do what?

type furiously on our keyboards and flail our arms? that's really cool

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875960#msg875960 date=1243370707]
so sheik, if we dont win anything for the next 3 seasons we can assume you will be unhappy

what would remedy this potential unhappiness, can you answer the question rather than being evasive? or do you accept it's possible to finish with 80+ points for the next 3 years with the team performing at a good level and Benitez doing a good enough job but still win nothing


[/quote]

Of course I'd be unhappy. I'd expect us to make a change of manager, because get this Rebel, Liverpool Football Club is about winning trophies not coming 4th.

You on the other hand would be happy for us to come 4th for the next 20 years. You're a loser with a defeatist mentality.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg875964#msg875964 date=1243370968]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875960#msg875960 date=1243370707]
so sheik, if we dont win anything for the next 3 seasons we can assume you will be unhappy

what would remedy this potential unhappiness, can you answer the question rather than being evasive? or do you accept it's possible to finish with 80+ points for the next 3 years with the team performing at a good level and Benitez doing a good enough job but still win nothing


[/quote]

Of course I'd be unhappy. I'd expect us to make a change of manager, because get this Rebel, Liverpool Football Club is about winning trophies not coming 4th.

You on the other hand would be happy for us to come 4th for the next 20 years. You're a loser with a defeatist mentality.
[/quote]

right, so what if we changed manager and it went disasterously wrong like it did for Charlton who wanted more than 10th in the premier league and now sit in division 2, or Newcastle, or any other clubs who change their managers because they think they're entitled to trophies

I want to win trophies but i dont think we're entitled to them ESPECIALLY in the ultra-competitive England with 5/6 teams spending BIG money every summer, unlike Spain for example where it's just between the top 2 (until Benitez crashed that party)

I would hope we wouldnt get a change of manager as long as we're easily qualifying for the CL, the margins are fine. we could lose a couple of finals with terrible bad luck and you want the manager gone for that, it's nonsensical.

 

[The Nomad]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875963#msg875963 date=1243370954]
and if we don't get a trophy but get 80+ points for the next 3 years we should do what?

type furiously on our keyboards and flail our arms? that's really cool


[/quote]

Thats exactly what I done Rebel, well done.

 

[rage]

if after 8 years all rafa has delivered is the champions league and fa cup in his 1st two seasons then he should be sacked. anyone who thinks otherwise clearly lacks ambition.

everyone knows i'd only give him next season to deliver the title and/or champions league. how anyone can justify another 3 and then worry about what if a replacement can't deliver is ridiculous. yea we have a manager who clearly can't win the league but lets not replace him just in case we bring in a manager who'll be just as bad.

 

[keniget]

I actually do get what you're saying rebel and I, at times, share your concerns and fears about the club losing it's way through the incompetence of those at the top, however you just can't let that rule you as someone who has ambitions for this club.

We are not Newcastle. We are not Charlton. We are supposed to be a top European club that is satisfied with nothing less than the best. What kind of message are we sending to our managers, players and rivals if simply surviving is what we aspire to?

Guys like Stevie and Carra constantly talk about how being at Liverpool is about winning trophies and they're right. That's what the focus should be on. Winners *always* believe that they are going to win... almost that they have the right to win. Losers talk about pragmatism and excuses. That's why you're being labelled as a loser and someone with a defeatist attitude. It's a cancer in any sport and certainly has no place at Liverpool Football Club.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875968#msg875968 date=1243371243]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg875964#msg875964 date=1243370968]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875960#msg875960 date=1243370707]
so sheik, if we dont win anything for the next 3 seasons we can assume you will be unhappy

what would remedy this potential unhappiness, can you answer the question rather than being evasive? or do you accept it's possible to finish with 80+ points for the next 3 years with the team performing at a good level and Benitez doing a good enough job but still win nothing


[/quote]

Of course I'd be unhappy. I'd expect us to make a change of manager, because get this Rebel, Liverpool Football Club is about winning trophies not coming 4th.

You on the other hand would be happy for us to come 4th for the next 20 years. You're a loser with a defeatist mentality.
[/quote]

right, so what if we changed manager and it went disasterously wrong like it did for Charlton who wanted more than 10th in the premier league and now sit in division 2, or Newcastle, or any other clubs who change their managers because they think they're entitled to trophies


[/quote]

If is a big word Rebel. If we hadn't got rid of Houllier we wouldn't have won the European Cup. If Phil Taylor hadn't resigned because he wasn't up to the job we wouldn't have ended up with Bill Shankly. Winners take chances and don't accept second best. Losers do.

 

[KopKing]

Rebel has a point as clumsy as it is. Newcastle sacked Bobby Robson after finishing 5th. Look at 'em now

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=rage link=topic=33774.msg875974#msg875974 date=1243371636]
if after 8 years all rafa has delivered is the champions league and fa cup in his 1st two seasons then he should be sacked. anyone who thinks otherwise clearly lacks ambition.

everyone knows i'd only give him next season to deliver the title and/or champions league. how anyone can justify another 3 and then worry about what if a replacement can't deliver is ridiculous. yea we have a manager who clearly can't win the league but lets not replace him just in case we bring in a manager who'll be just as bad.


[/quote]

Rafa is delivering constant CL football, you might want him sacked because you're a muppet on a message board but it would be a stupid business decision

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=33774.msg875976#msg875976 date=1243371680]Winners take chances and don't accept second best. Losers do.
[/quote]

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[rage]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875980#msg875980 date=1243371892]
[quote author=rage link=topic=33774.msg875974#msg875974 date=1243371636]
if after 8 years all rafa has delivered is the champions league and fa cup in his 1st two seasons then he should be sacked. anyone who thinks otherwise clearly lacks ambition.

everyone knows i'd only give him next season to deliver the title and/or champions league. how anyone can justify another 3 and then worry about what if a replacement can't deliver is ridiculous. yea we have a manager who clearly can't win the league but lets not replace him just in case we bring in a manager who'll be just as bad.


[/quote]

Rafa is delivering constant CL football, you might want him sacked because you're a muppet on a message board but it would be a stupid business decision


[/quote]

that's it resort to insults. fuck business decision we exist to win trophies first and make money through success not off sloppy seconds.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33774.msg875975#msg875975 date=1243371669]
I actually do get what you're saying rebel and I, at times, share your concerns and fears about the club losing it's way through the incompetence of those at the top, however you just can't let that rule you as someone who has ambitions for this club.

We are not Newcastle. We are not Charlton. We are supposed to be a top European club that is satisfied with nothing less than the best. What kind of message are we sending to our managers, players and rivals if simply surviving is what we aspire to?

Guys like Stevie and Carra constantly talk about how being at Liverpool is about winning trophies and they're right. That's what the focus should be on. Winners *always* believe that they are going to win... almost that they have the right to win. Losers talk about pragmatism and excuses. That's why you're being labelled as a loser and someone with a defeatist attitude. It's a cancer in any sport and certainly has no place at Liverpool Football Club.
[/quote]

so if Stevie slips and misses a penalty in the next two successive CL finals, Sheik says we should fire the manager. this is just stupid. there are fine margins in winning trophies, WE ARE competitive even though we're not winning anything. top 4 can all beat each other on their day regardless of managerial brilliance, so as long as that CL qualification is going on every sodding year (hey Sheik that never happened under Hou) then it would be daft to get rid

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875985#msg875985 date=1243372069]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33774.msg875975#msg875975 date=1243371669]
I actually do get what you're saying rebel and I, at times, share your concerns and fears about the club losing it's way through the incompetence of those at the top, however you just can't let that rule you as someone who has ambitions for this club.

We are not Newcastle. We are not Charlton. We are supposed to be a top European club that is satisfied with nothing less than the best. What kind of message are we sending to our managers, players and rivals if simply surviving is what we aspire to?

Guys like Stevie and Carra constantly talk about how being at Liverpool is about winning trophies and they're right. That's what the focus should be on. Winners *always* believe that they are going to win... almost that they have the right to win. Losers talk about pragmatism and excuses. That's why you're being labelled as a loser and someone with a defeatist attitude. It's a cancer in any sport and certainly has no place at Liverpool Football Club.
[/quote]

so if Stevie slips and misses a penalty in the next two successive CL finals, Sheik says we should fire the manager. this is just stupid. there are fine margins in winning trophies, WE ARE competitive even though we're not winning anything. top 4 can all beat each other on their day regardless of managerial brilliance, so as long as that CL qualification is going on every sodding year (hey Sheik that never happened under Hou) then it would be daft to get rid




[/quote]

No I never. I said if we never won the league. Get your own argument straight before you start twisting others.

 

[leftpeg]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875985#msg875985 date=1243372069]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33774.msg875975#msg875975 date=1243371669]
I actually do get what you're saying rebel and I, at times, share your concerns and fears about the club losing it's way through the incompetence of those at the top, however you just can't let that rule you as someone who has ambitions for this club.

We are not Newcastle. We are not Charlton. We are supposed to be a top European club that is satisfied with nothing less than the best. What kind of message are we sending to our managers, players and rivals if simply surviving is what we aspire to?

Guys like Stevie and Carra constantly talk about how being at Liverpool is about winning trophies and they're right. That's what the focus should be on. Winners *always* believe that they are going to win... almost that they have the right to win. Losers talk about pragmatism and excuses. That's why you're being labelled as a loser and someone with a defeatist attitude. It's a cancer in any sport and certainly has no place at Liverpool Football Club.
[/quote]

so if Stevie slips and misses a penalty in the next two successive CL finals, Sheik says we should fire the manager. this is just stupid. there are fine margins in winning trophies, WE ARE competitive even though we're not winning anything. top 4 can all beat each other on their day regardless of managerial brilliance, so as long as that CL qualification is going on every sodding year (hey Sheik that never happened under Hou) then it would be daft to get rid




[/quote]

Please stop, you crazy fool.

 

[keniget]

You're constantly adding caveats to your original statement though rebel.

If we were a whisker away from winning title after title, then it'd be a very hard decision and I don't doubt that a large percentage of fans would be in favour of keeping the manager.

That's not what you originally said though as has been pointed out to you numerous times. You're not arguing that specific case, you're arguing the general case of not winning trophies season after season and generally speaking, *everyone* is telling you that is unacceptable.

The main difference between you and everyone else is that you're immediately fearing the worst - that the risk will backfire. With our current setup, I almost don't blame you, but again, if we're speaking generally, then you have to trust in those at the top otherwise what's the point...

 

[rebel23]

trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875991#msg875991 date=1243372341]
trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed


[/quote]

I couldn't give a fuck about anyone else Rebel. We are Liverpool Football Club and it's our business to win trophies. Our bread and butter is the league so yes, if a manager fails to win it after being considerable time and finances then I'd expect us to take a chance on someone who might. Hey, we might win it. Then again, we might not.

Nice change of direction from your original point. Again.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=33774.msg875990#msg875990 date=1243372275]
You're constantly adding caveats to your original statement though rebel.

If we were a whisker away from winning title after title, then it'd be a very hard decision and I don't doubt that a large percentage of fans would be in favour of keeping the manager.

That's not what you originally said though as has been pointed out to you numerous times. You're not arguing that specific case, you're arguing the general case of not winning trophies season after season and generally speaking, *everyone* is telling you that is unacceptable.

The main difference between you and everyone else is that you're immediately fearing the worst - that the risk will backfire. With our current setup, I almost don't blame you, but again, if we're speaking generally, then you have to trust in those at the top otherwise what's the point...
[/quote]

im pointing out that it's entirely possible for us to go very close in terms of winning trophy but all that matters is winning the damn trophy right so if we dont achieve it then Sheik's position is he should be sacked, if we dont win the league despite City, Chelsea or whoever spending large sums (and taking to the last day) he should be sacked. this is the real madrid mentality: trophy or else, no manager would want to work under those conditions and thankfully Benitez has a 5 year contract so it doesn't matter what Sheik/Rage and others say

those at the top would be silly to get rid if we're easily qualifying for the CL for me, anything else is a bonus

 

[leftpeg]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875991#msg875991 date=1243372341]
trophies Sheik, we're talking trophies no?

So you're demanding the league pretty much and what if City spend a billion quid and finish above us would you want an immediate managerial change or would you recognise that it's not easy and not something that can be guaranteed


[/quote]

If Gerrard slips while taking penalties in two successvive Champions League Finals and Man City spend 'a billion quid', I think Rafa would probably just give up anyway. And so should you.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=33774.msg875994#msg875994 date=1243372577]


those at the top would be silly to get rid if we're easily qualifying for the CL for me, anything else is a bonus
[/quote]

'Cos you're a loser.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Why oh why didn't I follow my own advice and leave Rebel to argue away with himself in his own warped world!