Thanks Gene.
Rafa slams LFC board
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[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=41990.msg1179576#msg1179576 date=1285102098]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41990.msg1179567#msg1179567 date=1285101083]
i don't think anyone's claiming that last year was any better than so far this year, we're not mental. i just don't agree that things had been so bad before that - frankly, if you really were worried about how we were playing in the first half of 08/09, i'd find it hard to argue because i was too busy enjoying all the points we were picking up. i know it's not the same thing - style and substance that is - but it really does seem a bit churlish to moan about the football when we were doing so well.
oh, and i can't remember who said it, but i also disagree that the reason we picked up a few too many draws that autumn was down to defensiveness. it wasn't: we went for it, we just lacked the little bit of creativity we always did under rafa. and anyway, those kind of results are no shame anyway - all leading teams run up against 'park the bus' opponents and come unstuck a couple of times a year. i don't think those were the crucial games in losing the title, not half as much as throwing away leads against everton and wigan, and of course the complete freak that was the 4-4 vs arsenal.
[/quote]
I wasn't worried about it at the time, no. Like you, I was hopeful that winning while not playing particularly well would ultimately stand to us in the long run. But now, looking back at the 2nd half of Rafa's tenure, I can recognise that (in my opinion) our football was often poor, unadventerous and defensive.
But we didn't really go for it, did we? In one game, we left Robbie Keane on the bench and brought on Lucas to unlock an unyielding defense. In another, we rested Alonso while Stevie was injured, and by the time he came on, it was almost too late. Again, a draw. Against Wigan, after their late equalizer, with us desperately needing to win, we took off Stevie to bring on Robbie (that's when Rafa lost me). And against an Arsenal already missing Cesc and having seen Adebayor sent off, what did we do, when already in the ascendancy? We took off our goal scorer and left Lucas on, basically settling for the point at halftime, instead of bringing off our DM and attacking a depleted team, ripe for the picking.
You say that none of those games cost us as much as others, played later in the season..? If we'd won just two of them, we'd have been champions. Every one of them cost us, mate.
[/quote]
well i can't remember the details of the individual games as well as you, all i can really say without watching them back is that my impression at the time was that we went for it as much as we could and that it wasn't quite enough. like i said, it's not those games (west ham, fulham, hull) that stand out to me as the title losers, firstly because all top teams drop points like that over a season, and secondly because our strengths were our solidity and organisation rather than flair, and so it was always to be expected that points like those would be dropped: all teams have their strengths and weaknesses.
what we shouldn't have been doing was conceding careless late goals when already leading.
also, it's important to remember that probably the main reason we didn't eventually win it was that utd were just a better team than us: they still had ronaldo and tevez and they amassed 90 points, their highest in their hat-trick of titles. ultimately i think it's incredibly unfair to blame rafa for us finishing 2nd: yes, he probably lost us points, but he also undoubtedly won us points: i don't think that squad (remember that torres was out or semi-fit for half the season) had any right to win the league, and us being top at xmas was a hell of an achievement.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=41990.msg1179567#msg1179567 date=1285101083]
i don't think anyone's claiming that last year was any better than so far this year, we're not mental. i just don't agree that things had been so bad before that - frankly, if you really were worried about how we were playing in the first half of 08/09, i'd find it hard to argue because i was too busy enjoying all the points we were picking up. i know it's not the same thing - style and substance that is - but it really does seem a bit churlish to moan about the football when we were doing so well.
oh, and i can't remember who said it, but i also disagree that the reason we picked up a few too many draws that autumn was down to defensiveness. it wasn't: we went for it, we just lacked the little bit of creativity we always did under rafa. and anyway, those kind of results are no shame anyway - all leading teams run up against 'park the bus' opponents and come unstuck a couple of times a year. i don't think those were the crucial games in losing the title, not half as much as throwing away leads against everton and wigan, and of course the complete freak that was the 4-4 vs arsenal.
[/quote]
I wasn't worried about it at the time, no. Like you, I was hopeful that winning while not playing particularly well would ultimately stand to us in the long run. But now, looking back at the 2nd half of Rafa's tenure, I can recognise that (in my opinion) our football was often poor, unadventerous and defensive.
But we didn't really go for it, did we? In one game, we left Robbie Keane on the bench and brought on Lucas to unlock an unyielding defense. In another, we rested Alonso while Stevie was injured, and by the time he came on, it was almost too late. Again, a draw. Against Wigan, after their late equalizer, with us desperately needing to win, we took off Stevie to bring on Robbie (that's when Rafa lost me). And against an Arsenal already missing Cesc and having seen Adebayor sent off, what did we do, when already in the ascendancy? We took off our goal scorer and left Lucas on, basically settling for the point at halftime, instead of bringing off our DM and attacking a depleted team, ripe for the picking.
You say that none of those games cost us as much as others, played later in the season..? If we'd won just two of them, we'd have been champions. Every one of them cost us, mate.
[/quote]
well i can't remember the details of the individual games as well as you, all i can really say without watching them back is that my impression at the time was that we went for it as much as we could and that it wasn't quite enough. like i said, it's not those games (west ham, fulham, hull) that stand out to me as the title losers, firstly because all top teams drop points like that over a season, and secondly because our strengths were our solidity and organisation rather than flair, and so it was always to be expected that points like those would be dropped: all teams have their strengths and weaknesses.
what we shouldn't have been doing was conceding careless late goals when already leading.
also, it's important to remember that probably the main reason we didn't eventually win it was that utd were just a better team than us: they still had ronaldo and tevez and they amassed 90 points, their highest in their hat-trick of titles. ultimately i think it's incredibly unfair to blame rafa for us finishing 2nd: yes, he probably lost us points, but he also undoubtedly won us points: i don't think that squad (remember that torres was out or semi-fit for half the season) had any right to win the league, and us being top at xmas was a hell of an achievement.
Potato famines are deadly serious issues for fast food franchises.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179586#msg1179586 date=1285103474]
Some Paddies with an NVQ in fast-food franchise legal issues are quacking on about the benefits of non-football executive board members making calling the shots
It's funny like potato famine
[/quote]
Me? Nah, I'm degree educated mate.
I'm not Irish either, thank fuck.
Some Paddies with an NVQ in fast-food franchise legal issues are quacking on about the benefits of non-football executive board members making calling the shots
It's funny like potato famine
[/quote]
Me? Nah, I'm degree educated mate.
I'm not Irish either, thank fuck.
F*ck off Rafa.
Your gone so please do the right thing and shut up about Liverpool.
Your gone so please do the right thing and shut up about Liverpool.
I really admire Rafa and was pissed off it didn't work out for him, I also dislike the slating he gets because I feel it manages to ignore the best of the work he did but however much I feel he was nobbled by a bunch of cunts it is true he lost the plot in his last season and his signings let him down badly. I dont even think he could deny that, he was guilty of many things but being a cunt wasn't one of them and some of the accusations of disloyalty etc are IMO bang out of order, he was getting shit poured on him from on high and it definitely took a toll. That last season did for him, he was fucked for a while before that mind you but ... Academic now.
I enjoyed the European runs a lot, and love humping United at old toilet, it's a shame he spat the dummy at the end and fuckd up his signings once too often.
I enjoyed the European runs a lot, and love humping United at old toilet, it's a shame he spat the dummy at the end and fuckd up his signings once too often.
My god, the reason everyone is suicidal on here is because there's been a massive decline in the clubs fortunes from our best league finish in ages, in every single aspect of the club, on the field and off. We know the myriad reasons for that, and perhaps there's some disagreement on the apportionment of blame...
But now it's somehow being posited that we were god awful to watch for most of that time?
Not for me. I liked watching Torres and Gerrard shit on teams, I liked watching us score a healthy amount of goals, I liked our well drilled defense, and I liked us fucking winning quite regularly.
Now people are playing discriminating judges of style on the deck of the Titanic or something? Yea, last year was painful to watch, in the exact same way that this year is thus far. But 2.5 out of the last 3 years? No.
But now it's somehow being posited that we were god awful to watch for most of that time?
Not for me. I liked watching Torres and Gerrard shit on teams, I liked watching us score a healthy amount of goals, I liked our well drilled defense, and I liked us fucking winning quite regularly.
Now people are playing discriminating judges of style on the deck of the Titanic or something? Yea, last year was painful to watch, in the exact same way that this year is thus far. But 2.5 out of the last 3 years? No.
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=41990.msg1179656#msg1179656 date=1285112160]
My god, the reason everyone is suicidal on here is because there's been a massive decline in the clubs fortunes from our best league finish in ages, in every single aspect of the club, on the field and off. We know the myriad reasons for that, and perhaps there's some disagreement on the apportionment of blame...
But now it's somehow being posited that we were god awful to watch for most of that time?
Not for me. I liked watching Torres and Gerrard shit on teams, I liked watching us score a healthy amount of goals, I liked our well drilled defense, and I liked us fucking winning quite regularly.
Now people are playing discriminating judges of style on the deck of the Titanic or something? Yea, last year was painful to watch, in the exact same way that this year is thus far. But 2.5 out of the last 3 years? No.
[/quote]
Perhaps not "2.5 out of 3" but we've been difficult to watch for perhaps an accumulated 2/3's of that time. We went on our run and were carving out chances even if it was somewhat direct and I enjoyed it greatly. But when we weren't doing that, there were long stretches where scoring chances were at a premium and we looked very pedestrian indeed. Most frustratingly of all, the majority of the poor performances seemed to be against the teams we "should" beat.
My god, the reason everyone is suicidal on here is because there's been a massive decline in the clubs fortunes from our best league finish in ages, in every single aspect of the club, on the field and off. We know the myriad reasons for that, and perhaps there's some disagreement on the apportionment of blame...
But now it's somehow being posited that we were god awful to watch for most of that time?
Not for me. I liked watching Torres and Gerrard shit on teams, I liked watching us score a healthy amount of goals, I liked our well drilled defense, and I liked us fucking winning quite regularly.
Now people are playing discriminating judges of style on the deck of the Titanic or something? Yea, last year was painful to watch, in the exact same way that this year is thus far. But 2.5 out of the last 3 years? No.
[/quote]
Perhaps not "2.5 out of 3" but we've been difficult to watch for perhaps an accumulated 2/3's of that time. We went on our run and were carving out chances even if it was somewhat direct and I enjoyed it greatly. But when we weren't doing that, there were long stretches where scoring chances were at a premium and we looked very pedestrian indeed. Most frustratingly of all, the majority of the poor performances seemed to be against the teams we "should" beat.
Yes Rafa you were given enough and failed miserably. Yes blame on everyone else and not you. Just like you did when you were at Valencia.
The same thing will happen at Inter when he start buying his own players. Now its Mourinho players. He'll do ok, just give him another 2-3 season and he'll fuck up just like he did with us.
The same thing will happen at Inter when he start buying his own players. Now its Mourinho players. He'll do ok, just give him another 2-3 season and he'll fuck up just like he did with us.
[quote author=rootkit link=topic=41990.msg1179512#msg1179512 date=1285099095]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=41990.msg1179501#msg1179501 date=1285098308]
Some of what you say is probably true, rootkit, but Rafa is *definitely* a control freak.
[/quote]
Maybe he is, but isn't the point here that he's highlighting what many have known for sometime - that LFC has a boardroom so poorly structured it would make a Conference side blush.
As I said - leadership starts at the very top. Until there is real footballing administration (and obviously no crippling debt) the club will stumble along making short terms appointments such as Hodgson and, worse still, a higher risk of reactionary sackings when the short-termist approach yields no results.
[/quote]
It was Rafa who engineered the sacking of Parry, who did have football knowledge/experience, and he was practically in love with Purslow when he first arrived. Then, strangely enough, this non-football person dared to question the wisdom of having spent £18m on a crocked, frail Italian midfielder who, even when fit, was never selected. How dare he? He doesn't know ANYTHING about football, afer all!
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=41990.msg1179501#msg1179501 date=1285098308]
Some of what you say is probably true, rootkit, but Rafa is *definitely* a control freak.
[/quote]
Maybe he is, but isn't the point here that he's highlighting what many have known for sometime - that LFC has a boardroom so poorly structured it would make a Conference side blush.
As I said - leadership starts at the very top. Until there is real footballing administration (and obviously no crippling debt) the club will stumble along making short terms appointments such as Hodgson and, worse still, a higher risk of reactionary sackings when the short-termist approach yields no results.
[/quote]
It was Rafa who engineered the sacking of Parry, who did have football knowledge/experience, and he was practically in love with Purslow when he first arrived. Then, strangely enough, this non-football person dared to question the wisdom of having spent £18m on a crocked, frail Italian midfielder who, even when fit, was never selected. How dare he? He doesn't know ANYTHING about football, afer all!
It's an interesting discussion, isn't it?
It's obvious that his point is true. Purssslow et al know fuck all about football.
But I'm not interested in why he said it, or the veracity of the statement. I find the idea interesting: is having a "football person" helping to run (or own) a football club important?
What constitutes a "football person" anyway? An ex-footballer? A fan?
Can anyone really countenance the likes of David Sullivan calling the shots (who is well-known for helping to pick teams, or buy players he quite fancies)? Or Steve Morgan?
Peter Kenyon knows the football *business* inside out given his Umbro marketing background. Would someone like him be perfect?
How about the enthusiastic, but clueless rich foreign owner? Abramocunt clearly got rattled about Mourinho and then replaced him with a succession of clowns before bringing in Ancelotti. Is that type of amateur influence and involvement what we want?
And then there's the likes of Pursssslow. The business mind and corporate snake. Yes, he can make business decisions, but how can a man like that make football ones? He doesn't understand the game. He doesn't understand what being a fan is about, making cold, calculating decisions is great in some ways - removing the heart from the head - but football can't be treated like that.
So what am I saying? We need a hybrid of all of these? I dunno. Just thought I'd bring it up.
Rafa could take a leaf out of Bill Shankly's book:
"At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters.
Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques."
"At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters.
Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques."
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41990.msg1179816#msg1179816 date=1285148826]
Why doesn't Purslow understand what being a fan is about?
Is he not a Liverpool fan?
[/quote]
He lies about everything else.
Why doesn't Purslow understand what being a fan is about?
Is he not a Liverpool fan?
[/quote]
He lies about everything else.
basically the liverpool board looked at our current financial state, the players currently on the books, the money they would be able to extend to the new manager, our need to get back into the CL (just to tread water), draw up a long list of tick boxes and the name that ticked most boxes...was roy hodgson.
this is our board, they are in charge of the most successful side in the english league.
this is our board, they are in charge of the most successful side in the english league.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41990.msg1179837#msg1179837 date=1285150085]
basically the liverpool board looked at our current financial state, the players currently on the books, the money they would be able to extend to the new manager, our need to get back into the CL (just to tread water), draw up a long list of tick boxes and the name that ticked most boxes...was roy hodgson.
this is our board, the in charge of the most successful side in the english league.
[/quote]
Hahahaha
basically the liverpool board looked at our current financial state, the players currently on the books, the money they would be able to extend to the new manager, our need to get back into the CL (just to tread water), draw up a long list of tick boxes and the name that ticked most boxes...was roy hodgson.
this is our board, the in charge of the most successful side in the english league.
[/quote]
Hahahaha
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179839#msg1179839 date=1285150148]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41990.msg1179837#msg1179837 date=1285150085]
basically the liverpool board looked at our current financial state, the players currently on the books, the money they would be able to extend to the new manager, our need to get back into the CL (just to tread water), draw up a long list of tick boxes and the name that ticked most boxes...was roy hodgson.
this is our board, the in charge of the most successful side in the english league.
[/quote]
Hahahaha
[/quote]
isn't the saying; 'if you plan for mediocrity you will almost certainly achieve it'?
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41990.msg1179837#msg1179837 date=1285150085]
basically the liverpool board looked at our current financial state, the players currently on the books, the money they would be able to extend to the new manager, our need to get back into the CL (just to tread water), draw up a long list of tick boxes and the name that ticked most boxes...was roy hodgson.
this is our board, the in charge of the most successful side in the english league.
[/quote]
Hahahaha
[/quote]
isn't the saying; 'if you plan for mediocrity you will almost certainly achieve it'?
What are the backgrounds of Purslow and Broughton? Are they that different to those in charge of other clubs?
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41990.msg1179849#msg1179849 date=1285152055]
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
A billionaire version of David Moores, probably.
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
A billionaire version of David Moores, probably.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179850#msg1179850 date=1285152198]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41990.msg1179849#msg1179849 date=1285152055]
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
A billionaire version of David Moores, probably.
[/quote]
a lesson of 'careful what you wish for' for all the people who wanted shot of moores as they felt he wasn't doing enough or spending enough.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41990.msg1179849#msg1179849 date=1285152055]
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
A billionaire version of David Moores, probably.
[/quote]
a lesson of 'careful what you wish for' for all the people who wanted shot of moores as they felt he wasn't doing enough or spending enough.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41990.msg1179852#msg1179852 date=1285152422]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179850#msg1179850 date=1285152198]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41990.msg1179849#msg1179849 date=1285152055]
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
A billionaire version of David Moores, probably.
[/quote]
a lesson of 'careful what you wish for' for all the people who wanted shot of moores as they felt he wasn't doing enough or spending enough.
[/quote]
Indeed. Yet people are still happy to pile the blame onto David Moores for selling the club to the Yanks. Grossly unfairly IMO.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179850#msg1179850 date=1285152198]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41990.msg1179849#msg1179849 date=1285152055]
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
A billionaire version of David Moores, probably.
[/quote]
a lesson of 'careful what you wish for' for all the people who wanted shot of moores as they felt he wasn't doing enough or spending enough.
[/quote]
Indeed. Yet people are still happy to pile the blame onto David Moores for selling the club to the Yanks. Grossly unfairly IMO.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41990.msg1179849#msg1179849 date=1285152055]
What are the backgrounds of Purslow and Broughton? Are they that different to those in charge of other clubs?
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what is meant by 'football people'; to be honest.
John Smith wasnt really a football person, but he's one of the best w'ver ever had..if not the best.
What are the backgrounds of Purslow and Broughton? Are they that different to those in charge of other clubs?
I'm not totally sure what Benitez would actually have wanted as the CEO and Chairman at Liverpool. He certainly didn't like Rick Parry, and I would say that he was someone who had enough experience to be considered a 'football person'.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what is meant by 'football people'; to be honest.
John Smith wasnt really a football person, but he's one of the best w'ver ever had..if not the best.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41990.msg1179816#msg1179816 date=1285148826]
Why doesn't Purslow understand what being a fan is about?
Is he not a Liverpool fan?
[/quote]
A football fan? He's not even a human being according to Brendan and Rebel.
*the sssspinning ssssnake...*
Why doesn't Purslow understand what being a fan is about?
Is he not a Liverpool fan?
[/quote]
A football fan? He's not even a human being according to Brendan and Rebel.
*the sssspinning ssssnake...*
T
the_khl
Guest
Rafa slams boards. That's what he does. He did it after leaving Valencia and now he did the same to Liverpool.
The scary thing is that he's probably got every good right to do so in both cases. Valencia has declined ever since he left hasn't they and we're certainly not looking any stronger so far either.
*I know that a cash-injection through new owners will probably change most things however.
The scary thing is that he's probably got every good right to do so in both cases. Valencia has declined ever since he left hasn't they and we're certainly not looking any stronger so far either.
*I know that a cash-injection through new owners will probably change most things however.
[quote author=KHL link=topic=41990.msg1179894#msg1179894 date=1285156039]
Rafa slams boards. That's what he does. He did it after leaving Valencia and now he did the same to Liverpool.
The scary thing is that he's probably got every good right to do so in both cases. Valencia has declined ever since he left hasn't they and we're certainly not looking any stronger so far either.
*I know that a cash-injection through new owners will probably change most things however.
[/quote]
Considering a large part of the second bit is linked to Rafa, I'm not sure if I agree with the first bit.
Rafa slams boards. That's what he does. He did it after leaving Valencia and now he did the same to Liverpool.
The scary thing is that he's probably got every good right to do so in both cases. Valencia has declined ever since he left hasn't they and we're certainly not looking any stronger so far either.
*I know that a cash-injection through new owners will probably change most things however.
[/quote]
Considering a large part of the second bit is linked to Rafa, I'm not sure if I agree with the first bit.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41990.msg1179892#msg1179892 date=1285155702]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179821#msg1179821 date=1285148980]
He lies about everything else.
[/quote]
Such as?
[/quote]
didn't the board say 20m was spent this summer?
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41990.msg1179821#msg1179821 date=1285148980]
He lies about everything else.
[/quote]
Such as?
[/quote]
didn't the board say 20m was spent this summer?
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41990.msg1179916#msg1179916 date=1285158231]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=41990.msg1179894#msg1179894 date=1285156039]
Rafa slams boards. That's what he does. He did it after leaving Valencia and now he did the same to Liverpool.
The scary thing is that he's probably got every good right to do so in both cases. Valencia has declined ever since he left hasn't they and we're certainly not looking any stronger so far either.
*I know that a cash-injection through new owners will probably change most things however.
[/quote]
Considering a large part of the second bit is linked to Rafa, I'm not sure if I agree with the first bit.
[/quote]
You may have a point.
[quote author=KHL link=topic=41990.msg1179894#msg1179894 date=1285156039]
Rafa slams boards. That's what he does. He did it after leaving Valencia and now he did the same to Liverpool.
The scary thing is that he's probably got every good right to do so in both cases. Valencia has declined ever since he left hasn't they and we're certainly not looking any stronger so far either.
*I know that a cash-injection through new owners will probably change most things however.
[/quote]
Considering a large part of the second bit is linked to Rafa, I'm not sure if I agree with the first bit.
[/quote]
You may have a point.
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