[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33576.msg870314#msg870314 date=1242722901]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33576.msg870195#msg870195 date=1242698169]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33576.msg869844#msg869844 date=1242665015]
Wenger and Mourinho scarcely took Ferguson on directly at all. They did most of their talking through their teams, which is OK up to a point but addresses only the surface of the problem, and (for different reasons) neither of them's lasted as a competitor for the old sod. I think Rafa's ambition is to go further than they did, and bust once and for all Ferguson's mental stranglehold on the game in this country. Yes, that's one heck of a goal to set himself and LFC, but I think Rafa sees that as necessary for us to re-establish ourselves back at the very top, whether alone (unlikely now) or at least in genuine, consistent competition with that lot down the E.Lancs Rd. If so, I think he's correct and I'm right behind him.
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My turn to respectfully disagree. The second part I think is 100% right - whether I agree with the approach isn't the issue but I'll say if Rafa doesn't get the results on the board then his efforts will be worthless.
With the first part Jose certainly took the piss out of Ferguson and undermined his position as the master by directly criticising manu's results and, on occasion, their tactics. It was a clever approach because it immediately called Ferguson into question with his own fans and I don't think its a co-incidence that it was around this time that many mancs began to question whether Ferguson was the one to lead them any longer. Mourinho had this luxury because from his first confrontation he was a (controversial) winner in the CL and it was a loss that really hit the mancs hard.
I think it would be unfair to say Wenger did not take Ferguson on for a prolonged period. He too undermined Ferguson because he treated him with a level of disdain and contempt at a time when every other manager longed to be mentioned in the same sentence as the so called master. Again Wenger had this capacity because his team did the business against the mancs and more than once.
The point of this is that Rafa can point to as many "facts" as he likes and can do so in as clinical and documentary manner as he likes; so long as he fails to compete with Ferguson on the pitch his credibility and therefore the credibility of anything he says will be negligible. He will be dismissed as a loser who's looking for reasons to justify his failings in front of his fans, his board and his club. It's pretty clear that Wenger lost this capacity when he tried to attack Chelsea - he even tried to take it a step further and drag Roman into the arena. Unfortunately for him he tried this at a time when Chelsea were leaving his team a long way behind and his comments quickly took on the perception of "who cares".
Rafa needs to get things in the right order cause if he thinks he's going to take Ferguson down off the field before he does so on the field he's a fool and, like any fool, he'll be in for a shock. This season has been a huge step in the right direction for Rafa but I don't believe he'll be in a position to really make his thoughts count until he's finished above Scot.
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Your usual excellent post and, on reflection, I agree with some of it where it takes issue with what I said before.
We'll have to agree to disagree on your last paragraph though, even if largely in terms of emphasis. I doubt Rafa envisages completing a hatchet job on Ferguson first and only then beating him to the title. My guess would be that he intends to work for progress on both fronts in step with one another. I'm not even sure he'll be aiming to take Ferguson down completely - puncturing the old soak's aura of invincibility, whether personal or professional, will be enough. My reading of the media coverage which this whole business has received tells me he's had more success already than I suspect you'd give him credit for. 😉
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I think the media that has given him credit is a little removed from the mainstream, general outlets. That's not to say this is a bad thing but rather its a minority opinion at this point. I've exagerated, I guess, on Rafa's aims and you're probably right - he just wants to drop him down a peg or two rather than "take him down".
The key to this, IMO, is to have him under intense pressure where he doesn't feel that he has the freedom to say anything with no-one able to bring him to account and therefore suffer the consequences. I don't think this season has done that - the pressure has certainly increased but, in the end, all the Scot is interested in is results and he's posted them yet again this season. In the past simply applying pressure hasn't been enough to slow him down - its only happened when he's failed. Maybe the pressure will be increased sufficiently if its coming from his most hated rival - that hasn't really happened before but I'd be confident of it if we can finish in front of them.
