Rafa Ice Cold with Alex.

[St.Benitez]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33576.msg869684#msg869684 date=1242653448]
[quote author=St.Benitez link=topic=33576.msg869669#msg869669 date=1242652118]
He sent Rafa a letter, saying well done.


[/quote]

Ish. What he did was to send Rafa a letter explaining to Rafa how Rafa won it tactically! How pompous was that? He thinks he's some sort of feudal lord, the way he writes to everyone 'welcoming' them to the league or advising then on this or that. There's so much stuff that ought to be investigated. Take his 'concern' for the daughter of then-ref Phillip Don. It's quite a well-known story, but hasn't been publicised. The daughter used to receive hand-written birthday cards, gifts and christmas presents from Ginsoak - during the period when her Dad was still refereeing Manc games. . She also used to get free tickets for the Director's box at Old Trafford whenever she wanted them, and was a guest at the 1994 FA Cup Final. Then there was Don's son, a promising young international triathlete, who used to travel up to OT to train and receive physiotherapy during the summer holidays (even though his family lived in North London). No proof, m'lud, that the ref was anything other than impartial in matches...but, you know: why? Ginsoak is a megalomaniac who seems able to scare broadcasters and reporters with the threat of bans. It's very dodgy stuff IMHO.
[/quote]

I'd never heard of any of that Macca.

It could all be innocent, but it certainly doesn't look good does it?

 

[Whaddapie]

F#$! united.

And f#$! ferguson.

He's the most vile, arrogant, hypocritical manager that we've seen since Brian Clough, and he cannot stomach a taste of his own medicine.

He doesn't like it up 'im, does he.

I like that there's a bit of bite back in this rivalry. For long stretches, it was us worried about them, but not vise versa.

Now they're worried. Now he's worried.

Roll on next season.

In the immortal words of the Big Yen... "Inti 'em!".

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=33576.msg869761#msg869761 date=1242658598]
Roll on next season.
[/quote]

Oh dear, that's what we said last season! ;D :🙂

 

[gkmacca]

The other irony about MOTD and Phil McNulty's moans about Rafa not being 'gracious' is that Ginsoak is still - supposedly - waiting for the BBC's Director-General to issue a formal public apology to him for Panorama having the temerity to mention that his son was under investigation for misdemeanours as an agent! So I guess the DG is also being ungracious by ignoring the daft old fool's demands!

 

[Le Chacal]

[quote author=iokoji link=topic=33576.msg869686#msg869686 date=1242653538]
it hurts to know you lost out in the prem title race because a rival team benefited from questionable ref decisions,besides alex showed disrespect by unnecessarily stoking up mind games at crucial times. he's done it to keegan,wenger and tried it with mourinho but had his nose burnt. when you consider all these,it would be hard to accept you lost fairly.
[/quote]
We didnt lose the title because of refs, mind games or whatever off the fields problems.
We lost it on the pitch. Too many draws because of more than often baffling decisons, during games especially.
Cautious tactics in december, january cost us the League.
Nothing else or no one else.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=33576.msg869763#msg869763 date=1242658731]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=33576.msg869761#msg869761 date=1242658598]
Roll on next season.
[/quote]

Oh dear, that's what we said last season! ;D :🙂
[/quote]

I didn't, P.

I fancied us to be there or there abouts but always a looooong shot.

After this season, I actually fancy it next year.

Not close. Not in it til late.

Next year, we win it.

 

[Wizardry]

I think its pointless to argue the baseless notion that united haven't been the best team this season. We were always looking at them when we were top and they did exactly what many of us said they would do; capitalised on our failures and made them count.

I've got no need for Rafa to congratulate Ferguson; I do believe he should congratulate them as a club but the moment he mentions Ferguson personally then it becomes a sham. He should show professional respect which is therefore directed to the club; mentioning Ferguson would make it personal and then it ceases to become professional respect.


When all's said and done I really have very little problem with anything Ferguson has said; he's tried to wind Rafa up a little and has, in large portions, succeeded. Rafa tried the same and, initially, came off looking a bit of a tool but that has changed as his team have got the results to back him up.


Just a question on the original post; when did the mancs win the title but Leeds or Blackburn were the better team?

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33576.msg869804#msg869804 date=1242662431]
Just a question on the original post; when did the mancs win the title but Leeds or Blackburn were the better team?
[/quote]

I think the OP was saying the reverse - that Leeds and Blackburn won the title when United were the better team. I don't know about Leeds, but I certainly think that the year Blackburn won the title under Kenny Dalglish, United were actually the better side that season.

 

[St.Benitez]

I still can't believe that that Blackburn team actually won the title.

 

[Judge Jules]

Wizardry mate, I think you let Ferguson off too lightly, with respect. What he's said may have been unremarkable by today's standards, but (as others have also said) I regret that those standards are as low as they are and that, because of the old goat's exceptional ability overall, he's been so influential in dragging them down to that level.

Perhaps, when Ferguson's time has passed, the game can try to leave all this nonsense behind. Until then someone had to take the fight to him, as is necessary with any bully. Whatever Rafa's mistakes in other respects, in my view he's made exactly the right long-term decision in picking up Ferguson's gauntlet and fracturing the conspiracy of cowardice which has led the rest of football to leave it lying there for far too long.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=33576.msg869812#msg869812 date=1242663029]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33576.msg869804#msg869804 date=1242662431]
Just a question on the original post; when did the mancs win the title but Leeds or Blackburn were the better team?
[/quote]

I think the OP was saying the reverse - that Leeds and Blackburn won the title when United were the better team. I don't know about Leeds, but I certainly think that the year Blackburn won the title under Kenny Dalglish, United were actually the better side that season.
[/quote]

Fair enough - I still can't get the Leeds one but with Blackburn I thought there was very little between them but the mancs folded a bit under pressure.


I still remember Ferguson going off like a prize twat after we beat them. He whinged to the media that it was a travesty that we beat them and then made the astonishing comment that we couldn't be counted on to make it a fair race by beating Blackburn. As though that was a necessity in the interests of fair play. In the event we did actually beat Blackburn on the last day of the season - but the mancs lost when a victory would have given them the title. I still remember the Blackburn players celebrating at the end of the game after losing (2-1?) and it was hard to tell which set of supporters were happier with their title winning achievement.

 

[manwithnoname]

The way some of you quack on, you'd think nobody had ever threatened Ferguson, or treated his 'mind games' with disdain, before Magnificent Mind Game Master Benitez came along

Jose Mourinho

Took him on, cowed him utterly, won back to back titles, laughed at his cod-psychological tactics, beat him into submission

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33576.msg869817#msg869817 date=1242663312]
Wizardry mate, I think you let Ferguson off too lightly, with respect. What he's said may have been unremarkable by today's standards, but (as others have also said) I regret that those standards are as low as they are and that, because of the old goat's exceptional ability overall, he's been so influential in dragging them down to that level.

Perhaps, when Ferguson's time has passed, the game can try to leave all this nonsense behind. Until then someone had to take the fight to him, as is necessary with any bully. Whatever Rafa's mistakes in other respects, in my view he's made exactly the right long-term decision in picking up Ferguson's gauntlet and fracturing the conspiracy of cowardice which has led the rest of football to leave it lying there for far too long.
[/quote]

JJ, I'm as much a supporter of the standards of years gone by as the next guy and I'm dismayed at the drop in many standards by comparison. Having said that, while Ferguson has crossed the line in some ways I think its added spice as well. Shanks was hardly reluctant to have a shot at them and Sir Bob carried it on. "Its manu and man-city at the foot of division one and my word they'll take some shifting". I accept there was often an element of humour in their approach but that is just the comments we remember. Just as often they said things which many would have found disrespectful but they were highly successful and so it was largely forgotten. Ferguson has focused on the rivalry more than any manager I can remember but, if anything, its been good for us - keeping us in the spot light when, frankly, our results didn't deserve it.

As for the cowardice - well Keegan and, far more successfully, Wenger have both taken Ferguson on. Arsene never backed away from highlighting the issues Ferguson tried bully through. He also tried to do so with Roman and Chelsea. I've no real probelm with Rafa trying this just now - so long as he has the results to back him up.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33576.msg869829#msg869829 date=1242664271]
The way some of you quack on, you'd think nobody had ever threatened Ferguson, or treated his 'mind games' with disdain, before Magnificent Mind Game Master Benitez came along

Jose Mourinho

Took him on, cowed him utterly, won back to back titles, laughed at his cod-psychological tactics, beat him into submission
[/quote]

Mourinho certainly hit Ferguson harder and faster than any other current manager but to say he "cowed him utterly" or "beat him into submission" would be an amazing exageration - even for you I suspect.

 

[Judge Jules]

Wenger and Mourinho scarcely took Ferguson on directly at all. They did most of their talking through their teams, which is OK up to a point but addresses only the surface of the problem, and (for different reasons) neither of them's lasted as a competitor for the old sod. I think Rafa's ambition is to go further than they did, and bust once and for all Ferguson's mental stranglehold on the game in this country. Yes, that's one heck of a goal to set himself and LFC, but I think Rafa sees that as necessary for us to re-establish ourselves back at the very top, whether alone (unlikely now) or at least in genuine, consistent competition with that lot down the E.Lancs Rd. If so, I think he's correct and I'm right behind him.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33576.msg869844#msg869844 date=1242665015]
Wenger and Mourinho scarcely took Ferguson on directly at all. They did most of their talking through their teams, which is OK up to a point but addresses only the surface of the problem, and (for different reasons) neither of them's lasted as a competitor for the old sod. I think Rafa's ambition is to go further than they did, and bust once and for all Ferguson's mental stranglehold on the game in this country. Yes, that's one heck of a goal to set himself and LFC, but I think Rafa sees that as necessary for us to re-establish ourselves back at the very top, whether alone (unlikely now) or at least in genuine, consistent competition with that lot down the E.Lancs Rd. If so, I think he's correct and I'm right behind him.
[/quote]

My turn to respectfully disagree. The second part I think is 100% right - whether I agree with the approach isn't the issue but I'll say if Rafa doesn't get the results on the board then his efforts will be worthless.

With the first part Jose certainly took the piss out of Ferguson and undermined his position as the master by directly criticising manu's results and, on occasion, their tactics. It was a clever approach because it immediately called Ferguson into question with his own fans and I don't think its a co-incidence that it was around this time that many mancs began to question whether Ferguson was the one to lead them any longer. Mourinho had this luxury because from his first confrontation he was a (controversial) winner in the CL and it was a loss that really hit the mancs hard.

I think it would be unfair to say Wenger did not take Ferguson on for a prolonged period. He too undermined Ferguson because he treated him with a level of disdain and contempt at a time when every other manager longed to be mentioned in the same sentence as the so called master. Again Wenger had this capacity because his team did the business against the mancs and more than once.

The point of this is that Rafa can point to as many "facts" as he likes and can do so in as clinical and documentary manner as he likes; so long as he fails to compete with Ferguson on the pitch his credibility and therefore the credibility of anything he says will be negligible. He will be dismissed as a loser who's looking for reasons to justify his failings in front of his fans, his board and his club. It's pretty clear that Wenger lost this capacity when he tried to attack Chelsea - he even tried to take it a step further and drag Roman into the arena. Unfortunately for him he tried this at a time when Chelsea were leaving his team a long way behind and his comments quickly took on the perception of "who cares".

Rafa needs to get things in the right order cause if he thinks he's going to take Ferguson down off the field before he does so on the field he's a fool and, like any fool, he'll be in for a shock. This season has been a huge step in the right direction for Rafa but I don't believe he'll be in a position to really make his thoughts count until he's finished above Scot.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33576.msg869819#msg869819 date=1242663520]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=33576.msg869812#msg869812 date=1242663029]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33576.msg869804#msg869804 date=1242662431]
Just a question on the original post; when did the mancs win the title but Leeds or Blackburn were the better team?
[/quote]

I think the OP was saying the reverse - that Leeds and Blackburn won the title when United were the better team. I don't know about Leeds, but I certainly think that the year Blackburn won the title under Kenny Dalglish, United were actually the better side that season.
[/quote]

Fair enough - I still can't get the Leeds one but with Blackburn I thought there was very little between them but the mancs folded a bit under pressure.


I still remember Ferguson going off like a prize twat after we beat them. He whinged to the media that it was a travesty that we beat them and then made the astonishing comment that we couldn't be counted on to make it a fair race by beating Blackburn. As though that was a necessity in the interests of fair play. In the event we did actually beat Blackburn on the last day of the season - but the mancs lost when a victory would have given them the title. I still remember the Blackburn players celebrating at the end of the game after losing (2-1?) and it was hard to tell which set of supporters were happier with their title winning achievement.
[/quote]

One of the happiest days we ever had in the Premieship; Horsefucker was spouting all that shit; then we beat Rovers and the Scum choked at West Ham 1-0.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=33576.msg870280#msg870280 date=1242718233]
One of the happiest days we ever had in the Premieship[/quote]

this will change next year avvy.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33576.msg870195#msg870195 date=1242698169]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=33576.msg869844#msg869844 date=1242665015]
Wenger and Mourinho scarcely took Ferguson on directly at all. They did most of their talking through their teams, which is OK up to a point but addresses only the surface of the problem, and (for different reasons) neither of them's lasted as a competitor for the old sod. I think Rafa's ambition is to go further than they did, and bust once and for all Ferguson's mental stranglehold on the game in this country. Yes, that's one heck of a goal to set himself and LFC, but I think Rafa sees that as necessary for us to re-establish ourselves back at the very top, whether alone (unlikely now) or at least in genuine, consistent competition with that lot down the E.Lancs Rd. If so, I think he's correct and I'm right behind him.
[/quote]

My turn to respectfully disagree. The second part I think is 100% right - whether I agree with the approach isn't the issue but I'll say if Rafa doesn't get the results on the board then his efforts will be worthless.

With the first part Jose certainly took the piss out of Ferguson and undermined his position as the master by directly criticising manu's results and, on occasion, their tactics. It was a clever approach because it immediately called Ferguson into question with his own fans and I don't think its a co-incidence that it was around this time that many mancs began to question whether Ferguson was the one to lead them any longer. Mourinho had this luxury because from his first confrontation he was a (controversial) winner in the CL and it was a loss that really hit the mancs hard.

I think it would be unfair to say Wenger did not take Ferguson on for a prolonged period. He too undermined Ferguson because he treated him with a level of disdain and contempt at a time when every other manager longed to be mentioned in the same sentence as the so called master. Again Wenger had this capacity because his team did the business against the mancs and more than once.

The point of this is that Rafa can point to as many "facts" as he likes and can do so in as clinical and documentary manner as he likes; so long as he fails to compete with Ferguson on the pitch his credibility and therefore the credibility of anything he says will be negligible. He will be dismissed as a loser who's looking for reasons to justify his failings in front of his fans, his board and his club. It's pretty clear that Wenger lost this capacity when he tried to attack Chelsea - he even tried to take it a step further and drag Roman into the arena. Unfortunately for him he tried this at a time when Chelsea were leaving his team a long way behind and his comments quickly took on the perception of "who cares".

Rafa needs to get things in the right order cause if he thinks he's going to take Ferguson down off the field before he does so on the field he's a fool and, like any fool, he'll be in for a shock. This season has been a huge step in the right direction for Rafa but I don't believe he'll be in a position to really make his thoughts count until he's finished above Scot.
[/quote]

Your usual excellent post and, on reflection, I agree with some of it where it takes issue with what I said before.

We'll have to agree to disagree on your last paragraph though, even if largely in terms of emphasis. I doubt Rafa envisages completing a hatchet job on Ferguson first and only then beating him to the title. My guess would be that he intends to work for progress on both fronts in step with one another. I'm not even sure he'll be aiming to take Ferguson down completely - puncturing the old soak's aura of invincibility, whether personal or professional, will be enough. My reading of the media coverage which this whole business has received tells me he's had more success already than I suspect you'd give him credit for. 😉

 

[Portly]

I keep hearing comments on the BBC that Rafa Benitez ought to pay homage to the great Sir Alex.

It seems odd that the BBC is so keen on Sir Alex, considering that this disagreeable old man has refused to talk to the BBC for a few years now.

 

[Judge Jules]

I've heard one or two such comments on there myself, but the papers are not following suit. On the contrary, I've been struck by how many of them (I read three on a regular basis, four if you count "The Times" and "The Sunday Times" as two) have harked back to Ferguson's pathetic attempt to stir up trouble over Rafa's "gestures" during the Blackburn game. It seems to me that there's a real depth of feeling among some of the hacks about Ferguson's past behaviour and that they're enjoying the fact that someone's taking him on. More than one journo in "The Times" has come out and said it was high time for it to happen.

 

[Oncy]

Nice thread title.

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33576.msg869829#msg869829 date=1242664271]
The way some of you quack on, you'd think nobody had ever threatened Ferguson, or treated his 'mind games' with disdain, before Magnificent Mind Game Master Benitez came along

Jose Mourinho

Took him on, cowed him utterly, won back to back titles, laughed at his cod-psychological tactics, beat him into submission
[/quote]

Yes, calling him 'the master' and 'my friend' and promising him many bottles of wine. It was daring. It was unorthodox. It was anal-licking-tastic.

 

[Portly]

I was interested by the combined Man U and Liverpool team suggested on "Match of the Day." Only two of our players got into the experts' combined team, i.e. Gerrard and Torres, and Fletcher was preferred to the likes of Alonso or Mascherano in midfield.

Supposing we are Champions next season, this will not reflect well on Sir Alex, considering his players are so much better than ours. ;D

 

[DHSC]

Why do we need to have these 'combined teams' anyway? What does it prove?

I know! Let's have a combined Sunderland/Newcastle team! That'll be fun!

 

[gkmacca]

I notice the League Managers' Assciation are now sticking thier snouts in. It's thanks to them that these things happen in the first place. Time and time again, they sit back and allow Ginsoak to throw insult upon insult in another manager's direction, until the other manager snaps back, and then, very loftily, they intervene to say 'let's end this'. They're so utterly incapable of making Ginsoak act like everyone else they have no moral authority whatsoever.

 

[DHSC]

Isn't Ferguson's buddy Allardyce the Chairman or something of the LMA?

If so, makes sense. :🙂

 

[gkmacca]

[quote author=DHSC link=topic=33576.msg870365#msg870365 date=1242727178]
Isn't Ferguson's buddy Allardyce the Chairman or something of the LMA?

If so, makes sense. :🙂
[/quote]

It gets more Mafia-like all the time:

LMA STRUCTURE:

EXECUTIVE - Commitee Members

Fabio Capello
President



Sir Bobby Robson CBE
Vice President



Lawrie McMenemy MBE
Vice President



John Barnwell
Vice President



Richard Bevan
Chief Executive



Olaf Dixon
Deputy Chief Executive



Howard Wilkinson
Chairman



Frank Clark
Vice Chairman


Committee Members:

Sam Allardyce


Dave Bassett



Alan Curbishley


Sir Drinkalot ARSE



Brian Flynn


Steve Parkin



David Pleat


Lawrie Sanchez



John Ward


David Moyes





http://www.leaguemanagers.com/lma/structure-3.html

 

[DHSC]

What the fuck are Dave Bassett, David Pleat, Lawrie Sanchez and John Ward doing there?

Are they even in a job now?

And they have a President AND a Chairman?

Hahahah!

 

[Pesam]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=33576.msg870338#msg870338 date=1242725580]
Nice thread title.
[/quote]

I thought so, unfortunately I can't take the credit, it was a thread title on the Betfair forum.