• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Post Scum Thoughts

Status
Not open for further replies.
What does it matter if we don't have individuals on the top goal scorers chart if we are scoring enough as a team? I honestly don't get the focus on individuals, whoever they are. Who cares where the goals are coming from? I couldn't give a shit if, at the end of the season, our right back was our top goal scorer with 11, if we are scoring enough in total to make us competitive. That's not to say it wouldn't be great to score more, obviously. But is it as simple as just adding to the mix a no.9 who can score 20 in a season? I'm not entirely certain.

And I am not sure anyone is offended by your view - at least I'm not - I am just countering it with a different view.

But I'm not saying an individual needs to score more and carry us, I'm saying our attackers need to score more and if they can't, then we will probably add someone in the Summer who will add goals.

Does anyone really think we will go through next Summer and not buy a quality attacker? I think we will, and if that's the case, surely that will mean that we did need to improve.
 
What does it matter if we don't have individuals on the top goal scorers chart if we are scoring enough as a team? I honestly don't get the focus on individuals, whoever they are. Who cares where the goals are coming from? I couldn't give a shit if, at the end of the season, our right back was our top goal scorer with 11, if we are scoring enough in total to make us competitive. That's not to say it wouldn't be great to score more, obviously. But is it as simple as just adding to the mix a no.9 who can score 20 in a season? I'm not entirely certain.

And I am not sure anyone is offended by your view - at least I'm not - I am just countering it with a different view.
I agree with most of that, however if you have a got a player that is more likely to get on the score sheet than not then he will secure your team a lot of points during the cause of a season. It seems to me at least we lack that player - maybe Mané/Coutinho/Firmino/Origi/Lallana/Sturridge between them actually ca get enough goals to compete but we could still end up fall short by a few points as we simply lack that one player that always shows up in front of goal.

Like when we had Suarez or those two season where Torres was magical or Fowler or Owen or Rush. A player like that could prove the very difference between 'chasing pack' and winners. This is not me saying that it's completely unlikely that you can actually win the league without that sort of player if the rest of them are all chipping in but I guess it's more likely that the team winning also got a proper goal-machine of some sort.
 
Regarding the creating chances bit.....


..is another important lesson to learn from those stats apart from the fact that Firmino is a very potent creative outlet, that we don't convert enough of our chances?

Take Eriksen, a player that was widely criticized at the start of the season, no goals, no assists etc. (and some of it was justified as he started below par with the rest of Spurs), but yet he's now sitting more or less top on all of the important parameters for a creative midfielder. Chances, assists and goals.

Reason?

Well, some of it of course is form but another and more important factor imo is the players around him. Kane was missing for a larger part of the start either because of awful form himself or injuries and same could be set about Alli. Now they are both back to their best and Eriksen's creative force are starting to show. He did create a lot of chances at the start of the season too but had to rely on either out of form players - or Janssen - to convert his lay-ups to goals. And we all now how that went..
 
No Italians
No worries, he doesn't even look Italian mate..

20162017
 
Firmino is boss the way he Works his socks off for this team. It is extremelly important for our pressing to move those legs just as well in the 70th minutes as in the 10th minute. And it all starts With Firmino. We have no other even Close to fit that bill. Winning the ball high up gives us plenty of finnishing Power in the opposition Box, and we have shown it again and again this season how efficient we can be. Of course it matters for players like Mane, Coutinho, Lallana and Studge that we can build the attack from 20 meters and in instead of starting in our own Box. Thats when they can show they individual brilliance in a collective force of attack. I really doubt you will find someone like Firmino that offer clinical finnishing as well. However, if the player exist I am sure Klopp and his team has him on the radar.

Let's not forget that we are building the team to compete in a long term.
 
But I'm not saying an individual needs to score more and carry us, I'm saying our attackers need to score more and if they can't, then we will probably add someone in the Summer who will add goals.

Does anyone really think we will go through next Summer and not buy a quality attacker? I think we will, and if that's the case, surely that will mean that we did need to improve.

Of course we can improve. I am not saying that we can't, and surely nor is anyone else.

Yes, I assume we will get an attacker in the summer but I see us going for someone in the Mane mould, rather than some prolific number 9 which the team revolves around. And that really is the crux of my point. If we could get a Suarez type player, who adds goals, workrate and creativity, then that would obviously be ideal. But they are a rare beast and you normally have to compromise and forego one of those characteristics. And I think, in our current set-up, we can afford to run with a Firmino for now. Especially with goal-scoring wingers/wide players either side of him, and goal-scoring midfielders behind him.
 
But if the team is scoring enough why would we focus on one player (Firmino) when clearly we don't set up with a no.9 as a focal point?

Valid point. But I think his goal return should be a little higher than it currently is. He plays up front in practically every game we play and although it's a team game and he clearly offers a hell of a lot for the team, individually I think he should pop a few more in considering the game time he gets and where he plays.
 
And I wasn't focusing on one player, that's why I said "them", the team is scoring goals (or was), but individually you see the flaws exposed when we lose a player or two, as I've said. Individually we don't score enough for us to say we can see where goals are likely to come from.

The top 5 in the league, excluding us, have 6 players in the Premiership goalscorers top ten between them. We have one, Mane, who is in tenth place with 9 goals. Ali and Kane have 23 goals between them. Our next highest goalscorer is Lallana in 15th place with 7 goals, and then Milner in 21st place with 6 penalties.

Our main striker this season has been Firmino, he's in 25th place with 6 goals, just ahead of Joe Allen.

It's an issue, if not in the short term then moving forward. I don't know why people find it so offensive to say we can improve. It's so defeatest and a case of staying in our comfort zone. They system is great, we need to add a couple more quality elements to it.

There's a related point that has been made by you, me, Dreamy, Fox and a few others, about the conversion of chances in games when they are at a premium, and the value that a supremely clinical match-winner or goalscorer/ whatever can add to the team when you are only going to get one chance, and you may have to make it on your own. When you "nick" a result.

The other unanswered - and currently unanswerable - question is if the total number of goals scored as a team would be increased or decreased if Firmino was replaced, or playing a different role, but obviously it may be that that replacement isn't actually at the club yet. If you look at obvious metrics like goals scored and assists, then Firmino has a mediocre return; 6 goals and 2 assists in the Premiership. But the work-rate and overall contribution to the team's performance is harder to measure, especially given there isn't a satisfactory "control" to provide a benchmark.

Firmino has 6 goals, which is a goal every 296 minutes, so he's been outscored by all the players you would expect to outscore him - Sanchez, Costa, Ibrahimovic, Kane, Lukaku, Defoe, Aguero, Hazard, Mane, Dele Alli, Benteke, Giroud etc - but also Snodgrass, Lallana, Antonio, Rondon.

But it also means he also has the lowest goal/ minute return of any attacker in the league*, and a worse return than Callum wilson, Fernando Llorente, Son Heung-Min and Charlie Austin, who have all scored 6 goals in less minutes.

So while you could put almost any striker into our team and get more individual goals, it is hard to say that this would mean we win more games, or score more goals overall, because what you might lose in workrate and the ability to force a corner from a mistake, or whatever, is harder to gauge.

So using Dreamy's favourite player, Defoe, for example, he's obviously a far superior finisher, but he doesn't have anywhere near the stamina, workrate and variety of movement into channels, or that understanding with his team-mates, especially Coutinho.

Like everyone, I genuinely do not care who scores, as long as we win. My issue with Firmino - and many others before him, like Crouch - is that for all the value and contribution to the team, elite football is a game of fine margins. Of maximising opportunity to win.

And as I've said on many occasions, while the best defence or the best striker is in NO WAY an essential factor in winning a title, if you look at the last 10-15 years of Champions, the team who has won it - in 80% of examples - had a player who has scored in and around 20 goals. So you're more likely to win it if you have one. Quite obviously.

We could win it with a player who scores 10-12 as a top scorer. It's just far less likely.

*only counting those that have 5 goals or more.
 
Last edited:
Valid point. But I think his goal return should be a little higher than it currently is. He plays up front in practically every game we play and although it's a team game and he clearly offers a hell of a lot for the team, individually I think he should pop a few more in considering the game time he gets and where he plays.

Yeah, it'd definitely be great if he scored more.
 
There's a related point that has been made by you, me, Dreamy, Fox and a few others, about the conversion of chances in games when they are at a premium, and the value that a supremely clinical match-winner or goalscorer/ whatever can add to the team when you are only going to get one chance, and you may have to make it on your own. When you "nick" a result.

The other unanswered - and currently unanswerable - question is if the total number of goals scored as a team would be increased or decreased if Firmino was replaced, or playing a different role, but obviously it may be that that replacement isn't actually at the club yet. If you look at obvious metrics like goals scored and assists, then Firmino has a mediocre return; 6 goals and 2 assists in the Premiership. But the work-rate and overall contribution to the team's performance is harder to measure, especially given there isn't a satisfactory "control" to provide a benchmark.

Firmino has 6 goals, which is a goal every 1776 minutes, which means that he's been outscored by all the players you would expect to outscore him - Sanchez, Costa, Ibrahimovic, Kane, Lukaku, Defoe, Aguero, Hazard, Mane, Dele Alli, Benteke, Giroud etc - but also Snodgrass, Lallana, Antonio, Rondon.

He also has the lowest goal/ minute return of any striker in the league*, and a worse return than Callum wilson, Fernando Llorente, Son Heung-Min and Charlie Austin, who have all scored 6 goals in less minutes.

So while you could put almost any striker into our team and get more individual goals, it is hard to say that this would mean we win more games, or score more goals overall, because what you might lose in workrate and the ability to force a corner from a mistake, or whatever, is harder to gauge.

So using Dreamy's favourite player, Defoe, for example, he's obviously a far superior finisher, but he doesn't have anywhere near the stamina, workrate and variety of movement into channels, or that understanding with his team-mates, especially Coutinho.

Like everyone, I genuinely do not care who scores, as long as we win. My issue with Firmino - and many others before him, like Crouch - is that for all the value and contribution to the team, elite football is a game of fine margins. Of maximising opportunity to win.

And as I've said on many occasions, while the best defence or the best striker is in NO WAY an essential factor in winning a title, if you look at the last 10-15 years of Champions, the team who has won it - in 80% of examples - had a player who has scored in and around 20 goals. So you're more likely to win it if you have one. Quite obviously.

We could win it with a player who scores 10-12 as a top scorer. It's just far less likely.

*only counting those that have 6 goals or more.

Trying to convince people that Firmino scores a goal every 19 games is a bit much eh?
 
There's a related point that has been made by you, me, Dreamy, Fox and a few others, about the conversion of chances in games when they are at a premium, and the value that a supremely clinical match-winner or goalscorer/ whatever can add to the team when you are only going to get one chance, and you may have to make it on your own. When you "nick" a result.

The other unanswered - and currently unanswerable - question is if the total number of goals scored as a team would be increased or decreased if Firmino was replaced, or playing a different role, but obviously it may be that that replacement isn't actually at the club yet. If you look at obvious metrics like goals scored and assists, then Firmino has a mediocre return; 6 goals and 2 assists in the Premiership. But the work-rate and overall contribution to the team's performance is harder to measure, especially given there isn't a satisfactory "control" to provide a benchmark.

Firmino has 6 goals, which is a goal every 1776 minutes, which means that he's been outscored by all the players you would expect to outscore him - Sanchez, Costa, Ibrahimovic, Kane, Lukaku, Defoe, Aguero, Hazard, Mane, Dele Alli, Benteke, Giroud etc - but also Snodgrass, Lallana, Antonio, Rondon.

He also has the lowest goal/ minute return of any striker in the league*, and a worse return than Callum wilson, Fernando Llorente, Son Heung-Min and Charlie Austin, who have all scored 6 goals in less minutes.

So while you could put almost any striker into our team and get more individual goals, it is hard to say that this would mean we win more games, or score more goals overall, because what you might lose in workrate and the ability to force a corner from a mistake, or whatever, is harder to gauge.

So using Dreamy's favourite player, Defoe, for example, he's obviously a far superior finisher, but he doesn't have anywhere near the stamina, workrate and variety of movement into channels, or that understanding with his team-mates, especially Coutinho.

Like everyone, I genuinely do not care who scores, as long as we win. My issue with Firmino - and many others before him, like Crouch - is that for all the value and contribution to the team, elite football is a game of fine margins. Of maximising opportunity to win.

And as I've said on many occasions, while the best defence or the best striker is in NO WAY an essential factor in winning a title, if you look at the last 10-15 years of Champions, the team who has won it - in 80% of examples - had a player who has scored in and around 20 goals. So you're more likely to win it if you have one. Quite obviously.

We could win it with a player who scores 10-12 as a top scorer. It's just far less likely.

*only counting those that have 6 goals or more.
When you put it like that.. a goal every 1776 minutes, it really does sound awful.
 
Thats because it wrong. Its every 296 mins. And he's got 5 assists. Not 2.

I read 2 in one place and three in another.

But you reckon 5?

Still, the goals scored is accurate, as is the fact that no other player has a worse goal/ minutes played ratio (scoring 5 goals or more)
 
Well, then those facts and well-informed opinions are pretty worthless. Were they bought off some bloke in an alley?
.. a very, very dark alley indeed. And the seller wore a Trump-mask.

Brendan, you really ought to be a bit more critical of your sources from time to time..
 
Can you find me a source that states Firmino hasn't got the lowest goal/ minutes played ratio of any attacker in the league?

(5 goals scored minimum)

Or is that actually OK?
 
Can you find me a source that states Firmino hasn't got the lowest goal/ minutes played ratio of any attacker in the league?

(5 goals scored minimum)

Or is that actually OK?
Not sure if that is aimed at me, but I honestly don't care too much about it either. I want him to score more frequently, I guess most would expect that, but you would also have to take into consideration the amount of chances he create and the work he does for the team.

I guess if you made a chances created/minutes played for any attacker he'd probably be around the very top at that meaning that his role and influence is different from most others playing in the same position as him because of Klopp's style. Getting wingers etc. into scoring positions etc. It's a bit too simplistic to just have a go at him because of the lack of goals when his manager want him to do more than just that.

I mean if his sole role were to score goals he would've failed rather miserably and wouldn't be picked week in week out.
 
Last edited:
Not sure if that is aimed at me, but I honestly don't care too much about either. I want him to score more frequently, I guess most would expect that, but you would also have to take into consideration the amount of chances he create and the work he does for the team.

I guess if you made a chances created/minutes played for any attacker he'd probably be around the very top at that meaning that his role and influence is different from most others playing in the same position as him because of Klopp's style. Getting wingers etc. into scoring positions etc. It's a bit too simplistic to just have a go at him because of the lack of goals when his manager want him to do more than just that.

I mean if his sole role were to score goals he would've failed rather miserably and wouldn't be picked week in week out.

Exactly. Trying to make this argument solely about goal-scoring somewhat misses the point.
 
We've scored 49 goals in the league. I thought that was more then anyone else?
For someone who doesnt "care" where the goals come from, you put a lot of effort into it and aim it at Firmino.

Firmino needs to add more goals to his game. We have to adress the striker position going forward. That will probably be Sturridge out next summer and someone else in who fits the style of play but also has goals to his game.
Does that cover it? Can we move on now?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom