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post match - Swansea

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Woland said:
We defo need a new defensive coach, we have been shite at the back....but.... and I'm no expert or anything.... but most of the things that are costing us are ridiculous fuck ups. Own goals, shit clearances, stupid fouls... Not exactly tactical probs. I mean if your players are dickheads can they be effectively coached? If they need Carra stood next to them simply to remember they're sentient then they should be melted down for glue.
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Rodgers claims it's not a coaching issue; I think it's both coaching and quality, or perhaps it's like you said, maybe the guys are just dumb.

I suggested this earlier - our defenders (and I include Gerrard in that group, in his current role) need the people in front of them to play well because intrinsically, they're not good enough defenders. They might have been at one stage, but they no longer are. They'll have great games when the midfield is clicking, doing a great job running opponents ragged, but if it isn't, like in the first half yesterday, they're then left to their own devices. That's when it's time to get the spare pants ready - it's a bit of a toss up if they make you crap in them, or if you leak a piss laughing. Okay, they're not always bad, but let's say at 29, 32 and 33... these guys probably won't improve with anymore coaching.
 
Mystic said:
Sterlings fantastic, but I think it was the right substitution, he'd started waning in the second half after a terrific first half, and having Coutinho there helped us control the game, which we did at the end.
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I don't see Sterling getting the same credit as Gerrard, Countinho etc. for that simply superb pass. Also hit with the outside of his right foot if I'm not mistaken.
 
Frogfish said:
I don't see Sterling getting the same credit as Gerrard, Countinho etc. for that simply superb pass. Also hit with the outside of his right foot if I'm not mistaken.
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Yep, it was a beauty, it'll be a travesty if he doesn't make the England squad.
 
During the game I thought Flanagan was really great.

Though in hindsight it may only be because he was on the same pitch as Agger, Skrtel, Toure and Johnson.
 
mark1975 said:
No, Ryan said he's shit and a terrible player, so did Oncy and a few others. He's clearly not, but he's obviously lacking in confidence, like most of our defenders. There has to be a point where we stop asking why individual players in the same area of the team are consistently making mistakes, and start asking what is wrong with the approach. You don't go from being a big player with two top sides, winning titles, to looking like a rabbit in the headlights everytime you get the ball. The same can be said of Skrtel, Johnson, Agger, Cissokho, Kelly and even Sakho at times this season. It's a recurrent theme, he looked great when he first came into the side, then as time as wore on, he's become a victim of the same symptoms as the rest. So...
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Don't they defend against the likes of Suarez and Sturridge in training
Does that help or destroy confidence..?
 
studsup said:
Speaking of Ilori - he didn't even make the matchday squad against Valencia, after seeming to have played well in both his starts in the two previous games. This after Granada were reported to be interested in taking Ilori on loan for a full season, or making his move permanent. Bleah.
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I heard that he was injured, not confirmed though. Would seem the most sensible explanation though, given that he didn't even make the squad.
 
Hyena said:
Don't they defend against the likes of Suarez and Sturridge in training
Does that help or destroy confidence..?
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I don't know, playing against the two best strikers in the league, you'd think they'd be sharp, if anything.
 
Personally I find the idea that we need a shouty Carra type in the defence unconvincing. There have been loads of great CB pairings, and entire back fours, where there's little audible communication going on. Our best ever CB pairing, Hansen and Lawrenson, were notable for their lack of communication. They just understood their roles, and each other's roles, and got on with it. I think that's the crucial thing here: to put it very simply, we need players who know what they should be doing, and have the concentration to do it. The problem with our current defenders is that they're good, but not good enough consistently enough. Both Skrtel and Agger, at their best, can look superb, but they're just not at their best often enough, and very rarely both at the same time. Skrtel, especially, seems to go through periods when he forgets all of his basic duties - how he contrives, for example, to get behind so many players in his own box is quite astounding. I don't think Ilori and Sakho will be a vocal pair, but who cares - I think, eventually, they'll be a reliable pair.
 
I think Agger will be gone in the summer. I hope, though, we don't make the mistake of splashing £15m+ on some young replacement. We've got Ilori who's only a year or so away, as well as Wisdom and Jones who might both become top class centre halves fairly soon. IMO we should be looking for an absolutely top drawer defender in his early 30s - I'd kill for a 2005 vintage Hyypia, say - for a nominal fee to just nurse us through until the younger lads are ready.

Same goes for the DM position. Rossiter and/or Chirivella will be ready in 2 or 3 years. It's not a position we need to be spending big money on.
 
I think Rossiter, hopefully, will nudge us away from thinking about a DM as such and just enjoy having a midfielder, plain and simple, who can defend and attack and keep his position. He's way more talented than a mere DM.
 
Yes, I agree. But that will effectively be the position he takes up, I'd think - in terms of who he replaces in the team.
 
I don't mind splashing to buy a solid young player in those positions, even though we've a promising player coming through. As long as it's not a raw youngster with just lots of potential (we have that), but someone more experienced, like Sakho (24).

Guys like Ilori and Wisdom are very young (20 to 22 next season) and let's say they're one season away from being good enough to start regularly for us. Meanwhile, we'll again have these problems next season if we wait for them. I don't think we need to worry about blocking their progress, because Toure will leave after next season, and I believe Skrtel as well. So by the end of the 14/15 and start of the 15/16 season, we could then look like this:

CBs: Sakho, <new CB>, Wisdom, Ilori
Breakthrough: Paez, Jones

Conversely, if we don't have a new CB next season, it means we'll need to rely on Skrtel or Toure again, or trust that either of Wisdom or Ilori can be a better player than their seniors. I haven't seen either of the youngsters enough this season to be comfortable with that idea.

To a certain extent, this applies to the defensive CM position as well, where we have Gerrard and Lucas covering one position. Say Rossiter is ready to start regularly in the 2015/2016 season (he'll still be just 19 by then). Meanwhile, getting a solid player in there next season will help with our cover and quality. By the end of the 14/15 season and beginning of the 15/16 season, we could then look like this for that one position:

CM: Lucas, <new CM>, Rossiter (yep I get that he can play more than in this position; just using this example)
Reducing minutes: Gerrard
Breakthrough: Chirivella

I think we shouldn't worry too much about the youngsters; if they're top quality, they'll shine through and Rodgers will give them chances. If they can't beat better players ahead of them, then we still end up in a good position. Judging from how Rodgers has handled Downing, Cissokho and Moses, he doesn't seem to have a record of letting promising young players get stuck behind inferior senior ones.

The key thing is that if we get into the CL next season, we need to be able to make sure we can stay in it after next season, otherwise it's rather pointless. Some investment has to be made in the right positions to have that happen. The departures and wage bill savings will hopefully help offset some of the expenditure.
 
gkmacca said:
I think Rossiter, hopefully, will nudge us away from thinking about a DM as such and just anjoy having a midfielder, plain and simple, who can defend and attack and keep his position. He's way more talented than a mere DM.
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To think he is not even 17 yet, and looks as if he has a lot of growing to do. Top player in the making from what I've seen
 
Hyena said:
During the game I thought Flanagan was really great.

Though in hindsight it may only be because he was on the same pitch as Agger, Skrtel, Toure and Johnson.
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Flano had a bad game yesterday. Misplaced passing, shit at going forward, slow etc etc…He and the rest of the back four was atrocious and no one can deny this shit.
 
studsup said:
I don't mind splashing to buy a solid young player in those positions, even though we've a promising player coming through. As long as it's not a raw youngster with just lots of potential (we have that), but someone more experienced, like Sakho (24).

Guys like Ilori and Wisdom are very young (20 to 22 next season) and let's say they're one season away from being good enough to start regularly for us. Meanwhile, we'll again have these problems next season if we wait for them. I don't think we need to worry about blocking their progress, because Toure will leave after next season, and I believe Skrtel as well. So by the end of the 14/15 and start of the 15/16 season, we could then look like this:

CBs: Sakho, <new CB>, Wisdom, Ilori
Breakthrough: Paez, Jones

Conversely, if we don't have a new CB next season, it means we'll need to rely on Skrtel or Toure again, or trust that either of Wisdom or Ilori can be a better player than their seniors. I haven't seen either of the youngsters enough this season to be comfortable with that idea.

To a certain extent, this applies to the defensive CM position as well, where we have Gerrard and Lucas covering one position. Say Rossiter is ready to start regularly in the 2015/2016 season (he'll still be just 19 by then). Meanwhile, getting a solid player in there next season will help with our cover and quality. By the end of the 14/15 season and beginning of the 15/16 season, we could then look like this for that one position:

CM: Lucas, <new CM>, Rossiter (yep I get that he can play more than in this position; just using this example)
Reducing minutes: Gerrard
Breakthrough: Chirivella

I think we shouldn't worry too much about the youngsters; if they're top quality, they'll shine through and Rodgers will give them chances. If they can't beat better players ahead of them, then we still end up in a good position. Judging from how Rodgers has handled Downing, Cissokho and Moses, he doesn't seem to have a record of letting promising young players get stuck behind inferior senior ones.

The key thing is that if we get into the CL next season, we need to be able to make sure we can stay in it after next season, otherwise it's rather pointless. Some investment has to be made in the right positions to have that happen. The departures and wage bill savings will hopefully help offset some of the expenditure.
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But my point was that we should buy for the 2 or 3 years it will take for those young players to mature. Common sense says that we should therefore go for experienced 30+ players who've already lost most of their transfer value and who won't block the progress of the youngsters 2 or 3 years down the line.

Someone like an Alonso for the midfield role would've been ideal.
 
mark1975 said:
No, Ryan said he's shit and a terrible player, so did Oncy and a few others. He's clearly not, but he's obviously lacking in confidence, like most of our defenders. There has to be a point where we stop asking why individual players in the same area of the team are consistently making mistakes, and start asking what is wrong with the approach. You don't go from being a big player with two top sides, winning titles, to looking like a rabbit in the headlights everytime you get the ball. The same can be said of Skrtel, Johnson, Agger, Cissokho, Kelly and even Sakho at times this season. It's a recurrent theme, he looked great when he first came into the side, then as time as wore on, he's become a victim of the same symptoms as the rest. So...
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Tbh I thought we looked better yesterday with Toure in there than Agger.
 
juniormember said:
Might also have something to do with Allen's presence. We were nowhere near exposed once he came on. Gerrard really didn't do the defenders any favours.
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I thought so aswell, and I think he should start against Soton. Rest Coutinho.
Dont know who to pick from Agger and Toure.
 
Sterling came off cos he fucked up for the 3rd goal innit? I thought he lost the ball unnecessarily before they crossed it in
 
Yeah, we were. Skrtel has been playing with fire though with his actions in the penalty area so it had to happen when it was pretty soft.

Sterling was very good for the first 30 mins
 
Routledge got past him way to easily though, and his lack of pace gets to easily exposed at times. Reminded me of Delofeou at Goodison. Still he had some moments with some very good defensive play and his passing is very good.
As you say, uneven.
 
Ryan said:
It's not really that scary is it? I get everything right.
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You get certain things right but let's not go overboard.
The scary bit is that you actually said that he'd start off well and then turn shit
 
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