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Other Games: 18th May

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Do you think shell companies owned by your owners is the same as overuse of a club logo or high value shirt sponsor?

2 of those are valid competitive means, one is only done to mask additional funding from the owners to avoid FFP. at least for the other 2 it's dependent on people actually supporting the club and buying your shite, as opposed to free money

I do agree we should have been more successful however, but we always conspired to fuck it up

This is the argument though - if an owner wants to chuck their money into the club for some reason, why shouldn’t they be allowed to - it’s not new - Jack Walker did it at Blackburn, John Hall did it at Newcastle, etc

City broke the rules because the rules were almost explicitly developed to protect clubs like Liverpool.

It’s arguable what City did in breaking the rules was better than Utd did in using leveraged debt.

Even back in the good old days, it was down to how much money the owners would give up for success, if they really wanted it - whether you go as far back to Clough signing Trevor Francis for Forest or even beyond.

I mean, our popularity is based on success in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s - which gave us a platform. Why shouldn’t a team that happened to be less successful in that period be allowed to be successful now - City just sped up the process.

The need for success has created the need to win at all costs - you only have to look round this forum - you won’t have to look far to find someone that would absolutely love us to be sold to anyone who would do what City’s owners have done and much worse.
 
City doing the treble was only a matter time. So it's nothing special. Any club can do it with that kind of financial backing
 
This is the argument though - if an owner wants to chuck their money into the club for some reason, why shouldn’t they be allowed to - it’s not new - Jack Walker did it at Blackburn, John Hall did it at Newcastle, etc

City broke the rules because the rules were almost explicitly developed to protect clubs like Liverpool.

It’s arguable what City did in breaking the rules was better than Utd did in using leveraged debt.

Even back in the good old days, it was down to how much money the owners would give up for success, if they really wanted it - whether you go as far back to Clough signing Trevor Francis for Forest or even beyond.

I mean, our popularity is based on success in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s - which gave us a platform. Why shouldn’t a team that happened to be less successful in that period be allowed to be successful now - City just sped up the process.

The need for success has created the need to win at all costs - you only have to look round this forum - you won’t have to look far to find someone that would absolutely love us to be sold to anyone who would do what City’s owners have done and much worse.

I get your point there and I don't disagree with much of it, but the fact remains that there are rules, they've broken them, they've been caught (more than once) and they're basically unstoppable now.

Whether we think the rules should be there or not, they are, and these cunts have been cheating for more than 10 years now. That's where my bitterness comes from... I can accept that they're richer than us and that we utterly shat the bed when we were the biggest club in the country as the money really started rolling in decades ago, but it's the blatant - and unchecked - cheating that's the difference between us having 19 titles and us having 21, maybe 22 titles and a legendary team over these past 6 years or so. THAT I will never be able to look past.

That's also why I think that our title a few years back might be the single most impressive ever won, by anybody. Even Leicester. We had to beat this financial, cheating behemoth to do it, and nobody else has ever beaten them. Sadly, nor is anybody else likely to, at least until fucking Newcastle replace them at the top.
 
City doing the treble was only a matter time. So it's nothing special. Any club can do it with that kind of financial backing

This. It's not nearly as impressive as it is inevitable. I'll never understand why people make such a fuss about it. They've actually been a big failure to this point by not doing it sooner...
 
This is the argument though - if an owner wants to chuck their money into the club for some reason, why shouldn’t they be allowed to - it’s not new - Jack Walker did it at Blackburn, John Hall did it at Newcastle, etc

City broke the rules because the rules were almost explicitly developed to protect clubs like Liverpool.

It’s arguable what City did in breaking the rules was better than Utd did in using leveraged debt.

Even back in the good old days, it was down to how much money the owners would give up for success, if they really wanted it - whether you go as far back to Clough signing Trevor Francis for Forest or even beyond.

I mean, our popularity is based on success in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s - which gave us a platform. Why shouldn’t a team that happened to be less successful in that period be allowed to be successful now - City just sped up the process.

The need for success has created the need to win at all costs - you only have to look round this forum - you won’t have to look far to find someone that would absolutely love us to be sold to anyone who would do what City’s owners have done and much worse.

The City owners didn't have these rules imposed against their will. They voted for and signed up to these rules. So these argument don't have any merit.
 
This. It's not nearly as impressive as it is inevitable. I'll never understand why people make such a fuss about it. They've actually been a big failure to this point by not doing it sooner...
Yes and no. Chelsea didn’t do with a huge advantage, PSG.
 
Win the treble.

Ahhh... Fair enough. I was actually referring more to the European Cup than the actual treble. Even so, though I'd have to check the numbers, it doesn't feel like those cunts had quite the spending advantage that these cunts do (I may be wrong on that). Plus, they weren't caught repeatedly cheating.

Plus I also consider PSG an ENORMOUS failure for not having won the European Cup by now.
 
I get your point there and I don't disagree with much of it, but the fact remains that there are rules, they've broken them, they've been caught (more than once) and they're basically unstoppable now.

Whether we think the rules should be there or not, they are, and these cunts have been cheating for more than 10 years now. That's where my bitterness comes from... I can accept that they're richer than us and that we utterly shat the bed when we were the biggest club in the country as the money really started rolling in decades ago, but it's the blatant - and unchecked - cheating that's the difference between us having 19 titles and us having 21, maybe 22 titles and a legendary team over these past 6 years or so. THAT I will never be able to look past.

That's also why I think that our title a few years back might be the single most impressive ever won, by anybody. Even Leicester. We had to beat this financial, cheating behemoth to do it, and nobody else has ever beaten them. Sadly, nor is anybody else likely to, at least until fucking Newcastle replace them at the top.

I’d agree with all of that - but they’ll get away with it - it’s all too far gone now.
 
The City owners didn't have these rules imposed against their will. They voted for and signed up to these rules. So these argument don't have any merit.

I believe City voted against the introduction of EPL FFP rules in 2013 along with 5 other clubs - had one more club voted against them, they wouldn’t have passed.

Ironically, Chelsea & Newcastle voted in favour.
 
This is the argument though - if an owner wants to chuck their money into the club for some reason, why shouldn’t they be allowed to - it’s not new - Jack Walker did it at Blackburn, John Hall did it at Newcastle, etc

City broke the rules because the rules were almost explicitly developed to protect clubs like Liverpool.

It’s arguable what City did in breaking the rules was better than Utd did in using leveraged debt.

Even back in the good old days, it was down to how much money the owners would give up for success, if they really wanted it - whether you go as far back to Clough signing Trevor Francis for Forest or even beyond.

I mean, our popularity is based on success in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s - which gave us a platform. Why shouldn’t a team that happened to be less successful in that period be allowed to be successful now - City just sped up the process.

The need for success has created the need to win at all costs - you only have to look round this forum - you won’t have to look far to find someone that would absolutely love us to be sold to anyone who would do what City’s owners have done and much worse.

I do agree with you that in general clubs which have been successful in the past (including ours) had an injection of wealth from owners which helped sustain the success and build the image. But at the same time, the scale matters. Chelsea took it to a whole new level and now City have broken that also. Even when we are at our best, the premier league was reasonably competitive. But City have won 4 out of the last 5 and will continue to dominate the PL until Newcastle emerges.

The French league is over as a competition. Of course we cannot fully blame sovereign wealth funds also due to what is happening with Bayern and Madrid/Barcelona winning more than 95% of La Liga.
 
And even if this unlikely scenario would happen - then there's Newcastle and whatever is next.

The game is dead.

I remember when Chelsea won it, I felt the same sense of shrug my shoulders that the financially jacked up cheats had won another trophy.

When I play championship manager and tweak it so that I have unlimited funds with Leyton Orient and win the CL, it feels hollow compared to wining the FA Vase with Leyton Orient with limited funds. City, Chelsea and Newcastle won't know that feeling. Let them enjoy it but deep down we all know it's not as satisfying.
 
I think those that supposed to regulate the game have to consider competition.

Of course every now and again you get footballing dynasties and dominance. But when a dominance goes unchecked and no one can get close because some teams have a huge financial advantage that's bad for the competition. FFP is supposed to be the answer for this but it's toothless and rarely enforced. I actually wish governments would get involved including legislation if needs be, but I know that won't happen.
 
Scenes at Manchester Airport .. I count 27, but second opinions welcome

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Can we prepare ourselves for their inevitable Treble chants:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ntc4XMf5tj8

With this song please... (green bottles ripoff)

115 charges, hanging on your club...
115 charges, hanging on your club...
And if one FFP charge were to accidentally fall,
There'll be 114 charges, hanging on your club...
114 charges, hanging on your club...

All the way down to 100.. or however much stamina we have.
 
Ken Early: Manchester City’s supremacy has made the rest of football seem small

Costs that are daunting for a mere football club are insignificant when you are backed by the resources of an authoritarian oil state



As the Manchester City players paraded the European Cup before their supporters, the Ataturk Stadium rocked to the sound of the Inspiral Carpets: “This is how it feels to be lonely. This is how it feels to be small. This is how it feels when your word means nothing at all.”
To the uninitiated, that sentiment might seem to jar with the moment, but the song is a Madchester classic and, more to the point, a favourite at Old Trafford in the days when Ferguson’s team were winning everything. “This is how it feels to be City,” they sang, “this is how it feels when your club wins nothing at all.”
United enjoyed a lot of malicious laughs at City’s expense during the glory years. So secure were they in their superiority that they hardly even considered the “years since City won a trophy” counter at Old Trafford might be tempting fate.

Well… nobody’s laughing now. City fans reclaimed the Inspiral Carpets song years ago to mock United for signing Phil Jones the same summer City got Sergio Aguero. The night they matched United’s greatest-ever trophy haul would not have been complete without gloating over their former oppressors.

If United never seem far from City’s thoughts at such moments, maybe it’s because their story since the Abu Dhabi takeover is most compelling as a revenge drama. Tables turn, fortunes are reversed… when you remember how United lorded it for so many years, there is justice to it. It feels more meaningful to conceive of City as liberating football from the ancient tyranny of the Cartel than to see them as, well, the footballing arm of an authoritarian oil state.
Still, now that City have won five of the last six Premier Leagues, only failed to win the Champions League in 2021 and 2022 because of freak events, and have just cruised rather serenely to a Treble, you wonder whether they might be approaching the point of revenge overkill.
Guardiola is not unusual in being irritated by criticism, but he doesn’t seem motivated by praise – whose praise would mean anything to him?
Imagine a reboot of Moby Dick in which Captain Ahab strikes a mysterious Faustian bargain that enables him to live into the age of industrial whaling. He fits the Pequod with a diesel engine, tracks down Moby Dick using sonar and kills him with an explosive harpoon.
Years later, Ahab goes about in a white whaleskin suit and shoes and has opened a pub called Dick’s Place where all the furniture is made out of whalebone. The story of how he bested the white whale is still his favourite subject of conversation. If anyone is tactless enough to suggest that there was perhaps something unheroic about the explosive harpoon, he tells them to cry more. If anyone seems to be getting too interested in the question of how he continues to be fit as a fiddle at 150 years old, he hires the 50 best lawyers in Nantucket to sue them for the next 10 year

It was interesting to hear Pep Guardiola repeat in several interviews after the match that the great thing about winning the Champions League was that they might finally get the credit they deserved for the five Premier Leagues they have won since he came to the club in 2016.
You wondered what Guardiola meant by “credit”. He is not unusual in being irritated by criticism, but he doesn’t seem motivated by praise – whose praise would mean anything to him? You suspect he does not respect many opinions in football besides his own. Why would he, when he sees deeper into the game than almost anyone else? Look at the performance of John Stones in the final, roaming from box to box, Clodoaldoing his way past challenges. Maybe Stones always had it in him to do this, but it took Guardiola to see it. Wherever he has gone, he gives players and teams an extra dimension.
Last month the club released a video of Guardiola addressing a pre-match huddle earlier this season. “Everything we have won we have won on the pitch – always!” The obvious subtext being, to hell with all the critics who say the secret of City’s success lies in the off-field advantages conferred by their Abu Dhabi ownership and the alleged financial chicanery that led to the Premier League charging them with 115 breaches of the spending rules.

On one level it’s obviously true that if City are winning the league season after season with 90+ points, it’s because their players are going out and playing the opposition off the park nine games out of 10. But it’s also true that City have more than the normal quota of good players. In Saturday’s final, City had two unused substitutes – Riyad Mahrez and Julian Alvarez – who each would have been the best player in Inter’s team.
Guardiola offered this encouragement to Inter: “Football goes on, life goes on, they will try again next year.” If this remark was not simply insincere, it displays a hopeless misunderstanding of the economy of football.Manchester City have a very good chance of making the Champions League final again next year. Inter have almost no chance. They have liabilities of almost a billion dollars, and the current Chinese owner is at risk of being bounced out of owning the club for failing to meet debt repayments. Thirteen players are out of contract this month, and some of the best among those who remain will have to be sold unless someone else turns up to buy the club in the meantime.

In other words, Inter are going through the sort of periodic financial crisis that engulfs so many clubs that try to compete at the top level but end up making mistakes. Recent years have seen even bigger clubs than Inter, such as Barcelona and Juventus, crash and burn as the consequences of accumulated mistakes catch up with them. This doesn’t happen to City. It’s not because they never make mistakes. It’s that they can drop €50 million on a flop like Kalvin Phillips or Benjamin Mendy and it simply doesn’t matter. Costs that are daunting for a mere football club are insignificant when you are backed by the resources of a state.
City’s supremacy has achieved what no previous dominant club has done: they’ve made the rest of football seem small. Clubs regarded as giants have been swatted aside like gnats.
The lustre of the Champions League itself is fading, as Florentino Perez predicted two years ago to undeserved derision. Who, ultimately, can compete with this, except perhaps a state prepared to put in even more money? If Guardiola gets irritated when people focus on this, it’s probably because the most annoying criticisms are the accurate ones.
 
I think City did it while Chelsea didn’t despite the spending is due to Pep, only couple of managers have been able to get anywhere near it across Europe (Ancelloti and Klopp) and both haven’t been able to match the insane performance levels required season after season.
 
If you expand that stat out to the past 20 years, city's average net spend is more than three times ours, per season, every season, for 20 seasons. AND they've now been caught cheating THREE times - I'd forgotten about the 2014 fine until this morning.

So, three things: 1. We've been utterly remarkable to have run them soooooo close on three different occasions, when you take into account those two indisputable and indefensible facts. 2. We've lost by 2 points, 1 point and 1 point, during this era of endless cheating.. We should have 22 titles, not 19. And 3. Fuck them. They're utterly irrelevant, because when you are simply the football arm of an authoritarian oil-state AND you cheat constantly to pad your already enormous advantage, you render the 'competition' a farce and your success is as predictable as the dawn.

Fuck them. I don't hate them more than I do Salford, but equally, nor do I respect them as much as I do Salford. In fact there's no team out there that I have less respect for. Not even fucking chelsea.
 
I like City as a footballing team. But I don't respect the way they have gone about it.

If you can buy any player in the world, stockpile 2nd team that would probably finish in they top 4 as well then of course you should be dominating the league and Europe.

There's no romance in the way they have gone about it.

I hate United but I respect the way they had academy raised kids in their treble winning year. I respect that they made their own wealth in a more 'honest' manner. City want the world to love them but it feels so forced.
 
I like City as a footballing team. But I don't respect the way they have gone about it.

If you can buy any player in the world, stockpile 2nd team that would probably finish in they top 4 as well then of course you should be dominating the league and Europe.

There's no romance in the way they have gone about it.

I hate United but I respect the way they had academy raised kids in their treble winning year. I respect that they made their own wealth in a more 'honest' manner. City want the world to love them but it feels so forced.

There’s no romance to us.

I’m pretty certain the City fans that watched their team drop down, what, 2 divisions and be utterly beyond shite for decade after decade after decade probably could give to flying fucks what anyone else thinks - I probably wouldn’t if I were in their position.

The guy that owns Purple Bricks has pumped a pile of cash into Larne FC, so much so that they won their first ever Northern Ireland Premiership and go into the Prelim qualifying rounds of the Champions League (Larne were a game away from being drawn against Spurs in the Europa League 2 seasons ago).

No-one from Larne gives a fuck about (anything???) what anybody thinks of them winning the League - ask @doctor_mac @Bradley @Athens
 
But it doesn't mean as much to them as it does to us.

I don't mean that they love their team less than we do, but they know exactly why they're where they are in world football now, and although they will never apologize for winning, they know that they now should win everything, every time, and when there's no real competition, although it's still fun to win, it's not the same, all-encompassing, unbridled joy that we felt (and may feel again) when we won a few years back.

Trust me - I'm a Dublin GAA football fan. We won 6 straight and 8 in 10 years recently... It was fabulous. But once it became the expectation and not the challenge, it felt a very different type of good.
 
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But it doesn't mean as much to them as it does to us.

I don't mean that they love their team less than we do, but they know exactly why they're where they are in world football now, and although they will never apologize for winning, they know that they now should win everything, every time, and when there's no real competition, although it's still fun to win, it's not the same, all-encompassing, unbridled joy that we felt (and may feel again) when we won a few years back.

Trust me - I'm a Dublin GAA football fan. We won 6 straight and 8 in 10 years recently... It was fabulous. But once it became the expectation and not the challenge, it felt a very different type of good.

Thats’s the thing - it does means as much to them as it does to us.

I remember the early days, as I looked after City supporters group in Melbourne at the pub I ran (along with Liverpool, Spurs & Southampton) - they couldn’t believe their luck because they’d be shit all their lives - then, all of a sudden they winning was the norm.

I don’t think any single one of them ever thought - nah, doesn’t mean as much as Liverpool won it for a second.

I mean they have become unbearably arrogant and conceited about it very quickly - but I’d imagine we were as bad in the 80’s.

As Liverpool fans we do like to put ourselves up on a pedestal - do a bit of quick research and you’ll find that Liverpool fans are generally considered the most unbearable and hated fans out there.

It’s a harsh truth, but plenty of people (not just Everton & Utd fans) will continue to hate us more than City, despite their wealth.

The financial cheating, if they do actually get held to account (which they won’t), may turn the dial.
 
Southgate really is a nauseating boring cunt isn't he?

A lot will depend on where we play Trent.. to whether he continues to play for England.

Fuck off you fucking cock rash.

You continue to play Maguire and Phillips who don't get a look in their clubs. And Pickford who should be 3rd choice.

Yet its up to Klopp?
 
If Southgate gets knocked out QF with this current pool of players then he should be sacked ASAP. It feels like at times, he is only the job because he is English and the next alternative is Big Sam.
 
From Jacob Steignburg:
“There are plenty of good reasons to go overboard after this passing masterclass from Trent Alexander-Arnold. Quite simply this is a talent that England have to nurture; a talent they cannot afford to waste. Alexander-Arnold is something unique, the kind of player whose effortless flourishes provoke involuntary swoons of delight, and the obvious conclusion to make after this straightforward 4-0 victory over Malta was that Gareth Southgate would be committing an act of vandalism if he cannot find a way to make the most of such a beautiful player.”
 
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