One last signing?

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg934453#msg934453 date=1251549632]
Arsenal are broke Molby... there's no two ways about it. In the short term and perhaps to the medium term depending when the recession ends, they are in the same boat as us. Admittedly they are better off in the long term if we carry on as we are with these short term loans.

At the start of this summer, one of their shareholders wanted to raise capital to invest in the team with a share issue but the other shareholders refused, arguing they didn't want use a long term solution to solve a short term credit problem.

They've made money on the sale of their players this summer and last... that has gone to pay their debts.
[/quote]

Their debts are to pay off a huge new stadium that is already built, and which is earning them lots of money. Our debts are to pay off the Americans who bought us, and who have still failed to even begin work on a new stadium. How is that the same boat?

 

[Le Chacal]

We badly need another striker.
Gerrard behind 2 strikers, Riera on the left. Lucas in the stands.
Thats how we're going to win games.

 

[Squiggles]

Our striker situation doesn't look so bad when we play 4-4-2.

 

[Le Chacal]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35518.msg934465#msg934465 date=1251550707]
Our striker situation doesn't look so bad when we play 4-4-2.
[/quote]
What?
We cant play 4-4-2 because there isnt another decent striker at the club beside Torres.
I still maintain that selling Crouch and then buying Keane was Rafa's biggest mistake

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg934453#msg934453 date=1251549632]
Arsenal are broke Molby... there's no two ways about it. In the short term and perhaps to the medium term depending when the recession ends, they are in the same boat as us. Admittedly they are better off in the long term if we carry on as we are with these short term loans.

At the start of this summer, one of their shareholders wanted to raise capital to invest in the team with a share issue but the other shareholders refused, arguing they didn't want use a long term solution to solve a short term credit problem.

They've made money on the sale of their players this summer and last... that has gone to pay their debts.
[/quote]


C'mon Tinto drop it man please... im going the pub in a minute.... yes they are broke HOWEVER...

Broke with a new stadium is a considerably better situation than broke without a new stadium.... FACT. Don't belabour the point we are not in the same position to say we are is just wrong, obviously totally categorically wrong. Its apples and oranges.It ignores the stadium sized elephant in the room. Its not the full picture.Its a distortion of truth. It is not a fair comparison.Its not like with like. It is just wrong, in fact its so wrong its worng.

I go for beer now.

Im hoping you and everyone else have a nice one 😉

C'mon the Pool

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934468#msg934468 date=1251550940]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35518.msg934465#msg934465 date=1251550707]
Our striker situation doesn't look so bad when we play 4-4-2.
[/quote]
What?
We cant play 4-4-2 because there isnt another decent striker at the club beside Torres.
I still maintain that selling Crouch and then buying Keane was Rafa's biggest mistake
[/quote]
Crouch
Wanted
To
Go
Hardly rafas mistake is it? And selling keane was more a problem as we didn't get cover.

 

[Le Chacal]

[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=35518.msg934471#msg934471 date=1251551247]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934468#msg934468 date=1251550940]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35518.msg934465#msg934465 date=1251550707]
Our striker situation doesn't look so bad when we play 4-4-2.
[/quote]
What?
We cant play 4-4-2 because there isnt another decent striker at the club beside Torres.
I still maintain that selling Crouch and then buying Keane was Rafa's biggest mistake
[/quote]
Crouch
Wanted
To
Go
Hardly rafas mistake is it? And selling keane was more a problem as we didn't get cover.
[/quote]
Oh I agree selling Keane without replacement was another mistake.
Crouch wanted to stay, Rafa didnt let him the choice but to leave.
The problem remains the same, we need a striker.

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35518.msg934458#msg934458 date=1251549956]

Their debts are to pay off a huge new stadium that is already built, and which is earning them lots of money. Our debts are to pay off the Americans who bought us, and who have still failed to even begin work on a new stadium. How is that the same boat?
[/quote]

What use is a huge new stadium if the money it earns can't be used to actually improve the football team but instead is being sucked into paying for itself? Arsenal aren't in the business of building stadiums, is it?

I've already admitted in the (very) long term they will be better off than us but in the here and now, they are in the same boat as us when it come to having limited funds for new players. As are United.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934473#msg934473 date=1251551494]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=35518.msg934471#msg934471 date=1251551247]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934468#msg934468 date=1251550940]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35518.msg934465#msg934465 date=1251550707]
Our striker situation doesn't look so bad when we play 4-4-2.
[/quote]
What?
We cant play 4-4-2 because there isnt another decent striker at the club beside Torres.
I still maintain that selling Crouch and then buying Keane was Rafa's biggest mistake
[/quote]
Crouch
Wanted
To
Go
Hardly rafas mistake is it? And selling keane was more a problem as we didn't get cover.
[/quote]
Oh I agree selling Keane without replacement was another mistake.
Crouch wanted to stay, Rafa didnt let him the choice but to leave.
The problem remains the same, we need a striker.
[/quote]

That's so wide of the mark. He wasn't guaranteed first team football. He could have picked up a wedge sitting on the bench but instead chose to move to a lesser club so he could play every week and try and stay in the England squad.

HE WANTED TO GO.

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=35518.msg934411#msg934411 date=1251543646]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35518.msg934401#msg934401 date=1251542556]
No but their long term future is much more secure than ours because of their stadiums.

Arsenal aren't spending much because of their stadium costs, and I'd much rather be in their position than ours.
[/quote]

Indeed.
[/quote]

yes, me too!

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Courch wanted to play. We play one up front. Torres or Crouch?

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=35518.msg934469#msg934469 date=1251550988]

C'mon Tinto drop it man please... im going the pub in a minute.... yes they are broke HOWEVER...

Broke with a new stadium is a considerably better situation than broke without a new stadium.... FACT. Don't belabour the point we are not in the same position to say we are is just wrong, obviously totally categorically wrong. Its apples and oranges.It ignores the stadium sized elephant in the room. Its not the full picture.Its a distortion of truth. It is not a fair comparison.Its not like with like. It is just wrong, in fact its so wrong its worng.

I go for beer now.

Im hoping you and everyone else have a nice one 😉

C'mon the Pool


[/quote]

You too Molby 🙂

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg934477#msg934477 date=1251551586]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35518.msg934458#msg934458 date=1251549956]

Their debts are to pay off a huge new stadium that is already built, and which is earning them lots of money. Our debts are to pay off the Americans who bought us, and who have still failed to even begin work on a new stadium. How is that the same boat?
[/quote]

What use is a huge new stadium if the money it earns can't be used to actually improve the football team but instead is being sucked into paying for itself? Arsenal aren't in the business of building stadiums, is it?

I've already admitted in the (very) long term they will be better off than us but in the here and now, they are in the same boat as us when it come to having limited funds for new players. As are United.
[/quote]

We'll make more profit despite paying back the loan to pay for it. Also, that loan is long, but not indefinite, so at some point in the future we become very profitable indeed. Not building it cos you'd be paying it back is like keeping renting when you could buy, cos you'd only be better off "in the very long term".

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35518.msg934479#msg934479 date=1251551648]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934473#msg934473 date=1251551494]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=35518.msg934471#msg934471 date=1251551247]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934468#msg934468 date=1251550940]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=35518.msg934465#msg934465 date=1251550707]
Our striker situation doesn't look so bad when we play 4-4-2.
[/quote]
What?
We cant play 4-4-2 because there isnt another decent striker at the club beside Torres.
I still maintain that selling Crouch and then buying Keane was Rafa's biggest mistake
[/quote]
Crouch
Wanted
To
Go
Hardly rafas mistake is it? And selling keane was more a problem as we didn't get cover.
[/quote]
Oh I agree selling Keane without replacement was another mistake.
Crouch wanted to stay, Rafa didnt let him the choice but to leave.
The problem remains the same, we need a striker.
[/quote]

That's so wide of the mark. He wasn't guaranteed first team football. He could have picked up a wedge sitting on the bench but instead chose to move to a lesser club so he could play every week and try and stay in the England squad.

HE WANTED TO GO.

[/quote]


We offered him a new contract as well but as you rightly stated, HE wanted to go.

 

[Hooz]

Plus he wasn't any good anyway.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

correct

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35518.msg934484#msg934484 date=1251551797]
We'll make more profit despite paying back the loan to pay for it. Also, that loan is long, but not indefinite, so at some point in the future we become very profitable indeed. Not building it cos you'd be paying it back is like keeping renting when you could buy, cos you'd only be better off "in the very long term".
[/quote]

Of course and I do hope that's how it works out for us when (if) we build our stadium.

But the here and now is important too... what if you never ever have disposable income because every penny you earn is going on the mortgage whereas if you rented, you could be out having some fun, having a nice life and still being able to save. It all depends on the expense of the mortgage, doesn't it?

Arsenal's mortgage is too expensive for them at the moment and they're not in the best of positions financially for now.

 

[Avmenon]

They're certainly playing a lot better than we are tho.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=35518.msg934441#msg934441 date=1251547918]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35518.msg934414#msg934414 date=1251544594]
The Arsenal thing is a complete lie Molby. Arsenal board members blocked funds from being invested.


[/quote]

?I didn't make it up Ros i definitely read that somewhere although I grant you it was not this season, 12 months back maybe, the stadium had been built either way. They always seem to get the players they want dont they? But then thats as much a criticism of Rafa and the Yanks as it is a compliment for Wenger.

Either way you cut it it is just being contrary,It is absurd to suggest that Arsenal are in the same position as us, they are not they have big debts and the big shiny new stadium to pay for it we have big debts and do not.
That is as Rafa would point out a fact.

EDIT i did try and find the Wenger quote to prove i wasnt making it up but all i could find was from some obscure japanese newspaper... i do remember reading it here tho...

The Arsenal board asked Wenger what he would do if he was given £100 million to spend. He replied that he would give it back.

"I only spend money if it is necessary," he said. "When you feel you have a good team you don't necessarily want to spend it. It's nice to have in an emergency. but you must spend it wisely."

He may or may not be the best coach but in many respects Wenger is unique

[/quote]

PR from the Arsenal board.

Usmanov tried to force a rights issue, which is an issue of new shares. It was blocked by Board members because they didn't want to have to pony up to retain their stakes.

Usmanov was happy to give the 100m himself and in turn get a bigger share of the club, but the way it works is usually that everyone is given the chance to buy proportionately so they retain their percentage stake. None of the other shareholders wished to do it.

And it has nothing to do with Wenger's policies that they refused it.

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg934491#msg934491 date=1251552464]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35518.msg934484#msg934484 date=1251551797]
We'll make more profit despite paying back the loan to pay for it. Also, that loan is long, but not indefinite, so at some point in the future we become very profitable indeed. Not building it cos you'd be paying it back is like keeping renting when you could buy, cos you'd only be better off "in the very long term".
[/quote]

Of course and I do hope that's how it works out for us when (if) we build our stadium.

But the here and now is important too... what if you never ever have disposable income because every penny you earn is going on the mortgage whereas if you rented, you could be out having some fun, having a nice life and still being able to save. It all depends on the expense of the mortgage, doesn't it?

Arsenal's mortgage is too expensive for them at the moment and they're not in the best of positions financially for now.
[/quote]

That's exactly what me, & most of my mates, are doing now! Still better than renting, that loss now will be worth ten times that in future

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg934491#msg934491 date=1251552464]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35518.msg934484#msg934484 date=1251551797]
We'll make more profit despite paying back the loan to pay for it. Also, that loan is long, but not indefinite, so at some point in the future we become very profitable indeed. Not building it cos you'd be paying it back is like keeping renting when you could buy, cos you'd only be better off "in the very long term".
[/quote]

Of course and I do hope that's how it works out for us when (if) we build our stadium.

But the here and now is important too... what if you never ever have disposable income because every penny you earn is going on the mortgage whereas if you rented, you could be out having some fun, having a nice life and still being able to save. It all depends on the expense of the mortgage, doesn't it?

Arsenal's mortgage is too expensive for them at the moment and they're not in the best of positions financially for now.
[/quote]

Tinto, you're normally so sensible, I can't believe you're actually arguing this. We are not in the same boat: Liverpool are in a leaky lifeboat, Arsenal are in a cruise liner. The fact that neither of our boats has much in the way of provisions at the moment does not alter the reality that theirs is a much, much better boat.

 

[HC]

To be fair at present are circumstances don't differ to much.

In the long term though, the two clubs are incomparable at present >🙁

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35518.msg934964#msg934964 date=1251570154]
Tinto, you're normally so sensible, I can't believe you're actually arguing this. We are not in the same boat: Liverpool are in a leaky lifeboat, Arsenal are in a cruise liner. The fact that neither of our boats has much in the way of provisions at the moment does not alter the reality that theirs is a much, much better boat.

[/quote]

My worst fears about a new stadium for us is exactly what's happening now at Arsenal. They're lucky in that they have Wenger who can spend next to nothing and still remain competitive. It's been a very very close run thing at times for them when it comes to qualifying for a CL spot.

Okay, I accept we're not in the same boat and go with your description, except that we're not just short of provisions, we're both needing to throw players overboard to stay afloat.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg935028#msg935028 date=1251574423]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35518.msg934964#msg934964 date=1251570154]
Tinto, you're normally so sensible, I can't believe you're actually arguing this. We are not in the same boat: Liverpool are in a leaky lifeboat, Arsenal are in a cruise liner. The fact that neither of our boats has much in the way of provisions at the moment does not alter the reality that theirs is a much, much better boat.

[/quote]

My worst fears about a new stadium for us is exactly what's happening now at Arsenal. They're lucky in that they have Wenger who can spend next to nothing and still remain competitive. It's been a very very close run thing at times for them when it comes to qualifying for a CL spot.

Okay, I accept we're not in the same boat and go with your description, except that we're not just short of provisions, we're both needing to throw players overboard to stay afloat.
[/quote]

Ha, very good. I bet they're happier with the players they've thrown overboard than we are with ours though.

 

[cochyn]

Think of all the kids we will have in place ready for when we build the new stadium and cannot buy any new players!!!

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=35518.msg934461#msg934461 date=1251550348]
We badly need another striker.
Gerrard behind 2 strikers, Riera on the left. Lucas in the stands.
Thats how we're going to win games.
[/quote]

You used to say we "would only win games if we drop Kuyt".

You're largely clueless.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35518.msg934899#msg934899 date=1251567556]
[quote author=Tinto link=topic=35518.msg934491#msg934491 date=1251552464]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35518.msg934484#msg934484 date=1251551797]
We'll make more profit despite paying back the loan to pay for it. Also, that loan is long, but not indefinite, so at some point in the future we become very profitable indeed. Not building it cos you'd be paying it back is like keeping renting when you could buy, cos you'd only be better off "in the very long term".
[/quote]

Of course and I do hope that's how it works out for us when (if) we build our stadium.

But the here and now is important too... what if you never ever have disposable income because every penny you earn is going on the mortgage whereas if you rented, you could be out having some fun, having a nice life and still being able to save. It all depends on the expense of the mortgage, doesn't it?

Arsenal's mortgage is too expensive for them at the moment and they're not in the best of positions financially for now.
[/quote]

That's exactly what me, & most of my mates, are doing now! Still better than renting, that loss now will be worth ten times that in future
[/quote]

Not always, obviously that depends on property values, the cost of borrowing money, cost of renting, taxes etc.. There is a complicated equation for working out whether it's better to buy or rent (there is a reason most Germans rent). As far as the stadium is concerned though that equation is for the most part moot since we are not going to build it then sell it (I hope - never know with those two lying twats) !

However what is very important is the cost of borrowing money, and that building costs will never be as low as they are now, which means repayments would be lower and so there would be more money left over for investing in new players. Any delay will mean increased building costs (materials & labour), increased repayments and very little money (a la Arsenal) for team investment.