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Poll Lucas V Spearing

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If one of them had to start a game for LFC which one would you choose?

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Heh,

when it comes to Lucas then Pesam is like a mini-me for Brendan.


I and I dare say the vast majority of fans (thus accounting for the thinking component of our supporter base) would choose Lucas well ahead of Spearing.

Like Vlad I do enjoy the tenacity and agression that Spearing brings to the team - he is closer to the Mascher mould in that respect and his joy at getting some games with Liverpool is evident for all to see.

Unlike Vlad I don't think Spearing is anywhere near the quality needed but that Kenny has played him out of desperation and, perhaps, a little thought of the shop window. I've had this argument with Del and others but I stand by the fact that - Europe aside - our form over the last 12 weeks has been the equal or better than any team in the country. Consequently it is entirely valid to point out that Lucas has been an integral part of the best team in England during the last 12 weeks.

I'm sure we're going to add quality next season but, really, the constant complaints about our poor team in the last few months has been permissable only because of our start under Roy and utterly unacceptable in relation to our performances on the pitch under Kenny.

We're currently 3 games off third place and 8 points out of the top 4 after one of our worst starts in last the 50 years. Of course we look at our players and think "Lucas, Aurelio, Kuyt, Maxi - we can do much better than these players". But if Kenny could get this kind of performance level from this team in the first 6 months next season then I'd be happy if we bought in only some competition and depth during the summer.

Topics like this really do demonstrate what is important to some of our fans. We hear many say "I don't give a rats arse if we play boring football as long as it wins the title" and then a thousand others pile in on top to agree with this profound philosophy. The reality is, however, that many of the fans do care and it shows with individual players - they don't just want to win..... they want to win with the sexiest sounding team they can imagine. They don't care if player A gets the job done to the benefit of the team, they want the internationa player of the year at another club to come and do the same job. He sounds better, looks better, is better so must be better for us.

The million dollar question, of course, is whether Kenny could get that performance level next season. Maybe he couldn't and we'd be screaming about new players. Right now, however, Lucas is well worth his place in the best performing team in the country. What he did or didn't do in the seasons before should not be coming into it; unfortunately that is the only thing some of our fans can actually think about.
 
This fan hopes he's not in that category, but doesn't agree with you that Lucas's previous record isn't relevant. IMO it's entirely relevant as evidence on which to base a forecast whether Lucas has it in him to improve sufficiently to warrant a place in a side, as opposed to a squad, with genuine title ambitions.
 
Lucas. Spearing has had 1 good game at top level. Lucas has had at least 3
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44730.msg1307691#msg1307691 date=1301479645]
Lucas. Spearing has had 1 good game at top level. Lucas has had at least 3
[/quote]


??? I'm not sure that supports your choice in any way, Fabio.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44730.msg1307740#msg1307740 date=1301484039]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44730.msg1307691#msg1307691 date=1301479645]
Lucas. Spearing has had 1 good game at top level. Lucas has had at least 3
[/quote]


??? I'm not sure that supports your choice in any way, Fabio.
[/quote]

Ha, i'm being purposefully negative on lucas. I rate lucas, more than spearing, a lot more. Spearing had 1 good game for us out of several. Lucas has took time to warm up but he's shown over the last few seasons to be a consistently solid performer. If spearing continues to improve then brilliant, i might re-evaluate, but to criticise lucas by saying spearing is better based on reserve games and 1 good performance is severly reductionist
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44730.msg1307683#msg1307683 date=1301479289]
This fan hopes he's not in that category, but doesn't agree with you that Lucas's previous record isn't relevant. IMO it's entirely relevant as evidence on which to base a forecast whether Lucas has it in him to improve sufficiently to warrant a place in a side, as opposed to a squad, with genuine title ambitions.
[/quote]

Well, I've thought about this but stand by my original statement; his previous record isn't relevant in determining his worth to the club now. I doubt many people out there are laughing at Ferguson now over his payment of 12m for Ronaldo a few years ago. He was never worth 12m at the time we pointed out; one trick pony, no goals and almost no assists - he was all froth and bubble but absolutely no substance or end product. It was an accurate assesment and many mancs were beginning to accept it as well. Those years of wank, however, meant absolutely nothing to the fans when he hit 40+ goals in a season or as he helped deliver league titles and a European cup. Possibly an extreme example.

Lets try Nani. For about 2 years we laughed at the suggestions he was a good player and most manc supporters I knew thought he was distinctly average as well. You won't hear many of them complaining about his performances when he first made the shift to the epl now, though. Why? Cause they're too busy happily accepting him as an important part of their table topping side.

There are plenty more examples of players who were either distinctly poor or simply average before improving significantly in this league. I know of very few cases where the fans constantly dragged up their poor performances in previous years to attack them. Just doesn't happen - and nor should it IMO.
 
I can't wait until Lucas is banging in 40 goals a season.

You've got me all excited.
 
Lucas at the moment. Give Spearing a season then I'd probably pick him.

I daresay that there'll be a marginal difference between both players at their best.

Ultimately both are average and definately not good enough for Liverpool if we have title aspirations.
 
What's funny is that most declared Spearing too shite for the first team before one performance against Sunderland. Now hes just as good as someone whos been a fixture in our first team for 2 years plus, had a decent stint in the Brazil first team and has actually had several pretty impressive performances this season.
 
The funny thing is that Spearing played against Sunderland last season and had a bad game. Everyone decided he was shit based on that performance.
 
[quote author=vikas link=topic=44730.msg1308787#msg1308787 date=1301660065]
What's funny is that most declared Spearing too shite for the first team before one performance against Sunderland. Now hes just as good as someone whos been a fixture in our first team for 2 years plus, had a decent stint in the Brazil first team and has actually had several pretty impressive performances this season.
[/quote]

What IS funny is that whenever I ask Lucas-apologists to point out these supposed games in which Lucas has played well they all always mention the same TWO games - against United and Chelsea*. 2 games that stand out out of 100+ games that's impressive.

*I could have looked good in that Liverpool midfield against Chelsea, they played with 3 in midfield against our 5 and their 3 included Mikel who is as bad as Lucas. Added to that Lucas had a poor first half gifting Torres a great chance to score. So basically Lucas has had one good game for us. Would you like me to list the bad games he's had?
 
[quote author=vikas link=topic=44730.msg1308787#msg1308787 date=1301660065]
What's funny is that most declared Spearing too shite for the first team before one performance against Sunderland. Now hes just as good as someone whos been a fixture in our first team for 2 years plus, had a decent stint in the Brazil first team and has actually had several pretty impressive performances this season.
[/quote]

And stop trotting out that "he plays for Brazil" bollix like it means something. He has played about 12 games for them, the equally poor Man Utd flop Kleberson managed over 50 caps before he was discarded! Gilberto Silva and Roque Junior were also both shite and won 120 caps between them - Brazil, like every other national team, picks duffers from time-to-time.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44730.msg1308789#msg1308789 date=1301660149]
The funny thing is that Spearing played against Sunderland last season and had a bad game. Everyone decided he was shit based on that performance.
[/quote]

Lol yep i think it was a strange team selection that day.

The same with the Arsenal game at the Emirates where he was partnered by Plessis and had that notorious hardworker Babel in a midfield 4 against Arsenal's 5. Bit of a hopeless task for anyone to be fair especially when you have double whammy of Ngog and Voronin in front of you.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=44730.msg1308800#msg1308800 date=1301661528]
[quote author=vikas link=topic=44730.msg1308787#msg1308787 date=1301660065]
What's funny is that most declared Spearing too shite for the first team before one performance against Sunderland. Now hes just as good as someone whos been a fixture in our first team for 2 years plus, had a decent stint in the Brazil first team and has actually had several pretty impressive performances this season.
[/quote]

And stop trotting out that "he plays for Brazil" bollix like it means something. He has played about 12 games for them, the equally poor Man Utd flop Kleberson managed over 50 caps before he was discarded! Gilberto Silva and Roque Junior were also both shite and won 120 caps between them - Brazil, like every other national team, picks duffers from time-to-time.
[/quote]

Especially in a position (DM) where they're often short.
 
Spearing is clearly naturally a better defensive midfielder, and that's the role they're theoretically fighting over, so it's a fucking no-brainer as far as I'm concerned:

Spearing.
 
Yeah, I don't mind Lucas at all tbh, he frustrates me but I'd rather see him given a new contract than muck like Babel, but Jay does strike me as a better all rounder, and not just based on one game :🙂 It's obvious watching the lad that he's got a bit more in his locker in terms of threat and ability to break up the play.

Just don't tell RAWK where I live.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44730.msg1308993#msg1308993 date=1301689369]
Spearing is clearly naturally a better defensive midfielder, and that's the role they're theoretically fighting over, so it's a fucking no-brainer as far as I'm concerned:

Spearing.
[/quote]

Yes, based on all those games where he'd played as a defensive midfielder and broken up the play, won tackles, and initiated moves with the ball.

There's so many I'm not sure which game to choose really.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44730.msg1309920#msg1309920 date=1301885118]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44730.msg1308993#msg1308993 date=1301689369]
Spearing is clearly naturally a better defensive midfielder, and that's the role they're theoretically fighting over, so it's a fucking no-brainer as far as I'm concerned:

Spearing.
[/quote]

Yes, based on all those games where he'd played as a defensive midfielder and broken up the play, won tackles, and initiated moves with the ball.

There's so many I'm not sure which game to choose really.
[/quote]

TBH I like Spearing's attitude in the tackle - there's a sense of agression there which Lucas either doesn't possess or doesn't demonstrate. That's the only point in which Spearing is superior. I actually liked Josemi in the tackle as well - he looked to go in with some intent.

When their examined reasonably their not worlds apart - Spearing and Josemi.

Lucas on the other hand - just for you JJ and Pesam :angel: - is an international for Brazil. Anyone out there can see Spearing even getting mentioned as having the ability to play for Brazil? Thought so!
 
I've championed young Spearing for a while now, when many had written him off because of his size. His bite in the tackle is that of someone double his weight (think Dennis Wise).

But I'd defy anyone to think he's better than Lucas right now. Whether you like Lucas or not, he's consistently rated by every manager he plays under, has a similar attitude/work ethic to Kuyt (seems to win him a lot of fans), and is now a fixture in an excellent young Brazilian side.

I'd like to see Spearing go abroad at 20 to a radically different league, put up with a barrage of criticism when played out of position and still establish himself for club and country over 3 seasons.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44730.msg1308342#msg1308342 date=1301578904]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44730.msg1307683#msg1307683 date=1301479289]
This fan hopes he's not in that category, but doesn't agree with you that Lucas's previous record isn't relevant. IMO it's entirely relevant as evidence on which to base a forecast whether Lucas has it in him to improve sufficiently to warrant a place in a side, as opposed to a squad, with genuine title ambitions.
[/quote]

Well, I've thought about this but stand by my original statement; his previous record isn't relevant in determining his worth to the club now. I doubt many people out there are laughing at Ferguson now over his payment of 12m for Ronaldo a few years ago. He was never worth 12m at the time we pointed out; one trick pony, no goals and almost no assists - he was all froth and bubble but absolutely no substance or end product. It was an accurate assesment and many mancs were beginning to accept it as well. Those years of wank, however, meant absolutely nothing to the fans when he hit 40+ goals in a season or as he helped deliver league titles and a European cup. Possibly an extreme example.

Lets try Nani. For about 2 years we laughed at the suggestions he was a good player and most manc supporters I knew thought he was distinctly average as well. You won't hear many of them complaining about his performances when he first made the shift to the epl now, though. Why? Cause they're too busy happily accepting him as an important part of their table topping side.

There are plenty more examples of players who were either distinctly poor or simply average before improving significantly in this league. I know of very few cases where the fans constantly dragged up their poor performances in previous years to attack them. Just doesn't happen - and nor should it IMO.
[/quote]

Even Nani is an extreme example.

When Ronaldo and Nani were struggling you could still see they had the raw materials to be good players. They had the physical talents needed to be very good, they also had touches of outrageous skill and decent shooting ability. All that was needed was to harness those skills in an effective way and they were going to succeed.

I don't see Lucas being anyway similar.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44730.msg1309934#msg1309934 date=1301900833]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44730.msg1308342#msg1308342 date=1301578904]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=44730.msg1307683#msg1307683 date=1301479289]
This fan hopes he's not in that category, but doesn't agree with you that Lucas's previous record isn't relevant. IMO it's entirely relevant as evidence on which to base a forecast whether Lucas has it in him to improve sufficiently to warrant a place in a side, as opposed to a squad, with genuine title ambitions.
[/quote]

Well, I've thought about this but stand by my original statement; his previous record isn't relevant in determining his worth to the club now. I doubt many people out there are laughing at Ferguson now over his payment of 12m for Ronaldo a few years ago. He was never worth 12m at the time we pointed out; one trick pony, no goals and almost no assists - he was all froth and bubble but absolutely no substance or end product. It was an accurate assesment and many mancs were beginning to accept it as well. Those years of wank, however, meant absolutely nothing to the fans when he hit 40+ goals in a season or as he helped deliver league titles and a European cup. Possibly an extreme example.

Lets try Nani. For about 2 years we laughed at the suggestions he was a good player and most manc supporters I knew thought he was distinctly average as well. You won't hear many of them complaining about his performances when he first made the shift to the epl now, though. Why? Cause they're too busy happily accepting him as an important part of their table topping side.

There are plenty more examples of players who were either distinctly poor or simply average before improving significantly in this league. I know of very few cases where the fans constantly dragged up their poor performances in previous years to attack them. Just doesn't happen - and nor should it IMO.
[/quote]

Even Nani is an extreme example.

When Ronaldo and Nani were struggling you could still see they had the raw materials to be good players. They had the physical talents needed to be very good, they also had touches of outrageous skill and decent shooting ability. All that was needed was to harness those skills in an effective way and they were going to succeed.

I don't see Lucas being anyway similar.
[/quote]


I don't think that its an extreme example at all. Veron had all the raw materials but never made it in this league.

Had he made it, however, I would defy anyone to have been raging on about how poor he was to begin with while he bangs in 15 a season with 20 assists.
 
[quote author=Glock link=topic=44730.msg1310357#msg1310357 date=1301985698]
Lucas has more experience. So, Lucas ahead of Spearing.
[/quote]

Poulsen has more experience than Lucas, ergo..
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=44730.msg1310021#msg1310021 date=1301910900]


I don't think that its an extreme example at all. Veron had all the raw materials but never made it in this league.

Had he made it, however, I would defy anyone to have been raging on about how poor he was to begin with while he bangs in 15 a season with 20 assists.
[/quote]

Again I don't see the comparison being anything other than extreme. Lucas does not have the potential to do the things that any of the three players you've mentioned.

At his absolute best he'll be a competent Premiership midfielder - and he's not there yet.

To suggest even in a roundabout way that he could put performances in that would match any of the players you've mentioned above is optimistic bordering on mental.
 
Could anyone who saw our game on Saturday give a brief summary of how they both played. Obviously I can guess that neither of them excelled but were they both dire, who missed tackles, did either of them do anything right?
 
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