Lucas transfer was done and dusted

[gkmacca]

I also like the fact he's actually getting forward enough sometimes to have a shot on goal. I think I've always been in a minority of, er, one here, but I think there's still a more well-rounded footballer lurking in there. It's often forgotten what a peculiar career he's had: brought over from Brazil as a young, Gerrard-style dynamic and attacking midfielder, and then made to pretty much reinvent himself, on the pitch in front of the sceptical gaze of thousands of fans, as a profoundly different kind of player. And under huge pressure he actually managed it. Not well enough for some, but well enough, to unbiased eyes, to earn massive respect, if not the warmest admiration. Not since Bruce Jenner has there been such a high-profile reinvention.

And he's coped with it all with remarkably good grace. Rafa treated him like a bloke who'd drunkenly married a woman who looked like Sarah Millican and then spent years trying to make her look like Monica Bellucci. Brendan came in and hailed him as his great disciple, his brain on the pitch, and then gave him so many mixed messages he might as well have been a postman. And still he's here. Incredible. For a square peg in a round hole, he's become more well-rounded than anyone had a right to expect. So although some of the criticism is justified, he still merits plenty of praise for his performances. No one works harder, tries harder or cares more. And if Klopp can give him a bit more self-belief, a bit more technical focus, then he'll prove the doubters wrong again.

 

[Portly]

I agree with @gkmacca. What Rafa did to Lucas should have rendered him liable to prosecution for cruel and unusual punishment. We bought him as a successful box-to-box midfielder and Benitez locked him in a cage for years on end.

 

[tony]

I agree with @gkmacca. What Rafa did to Lucas should have rendered him liable to prosecution for cruel and unusual punishment. We bought him as a successful box-to-box midfielder and Benitez locked him in a cage for years on end.

Yes but how many box to box midfielders can you fit in a side, we already had a rather good one! Hard to imagine a wispy slow player such as Lucas was when he arrived being that dynamic!

 

[Portly]

Yes but how many box to box midfielders can you fit in a side, we already had a rather good one! Hard to imagine a wispy slow player such as Lucas was when he arrived being that dynamic!

I think that if Benitez was looking for an ultra-defensive midfielder, it was a mistake to sign Lucas in the first place. There must have been dozens of better candidates for that job.

 

[tony]

I think that if Benitez was looking for an ultra-defensive midfielder, it was a mistake to sign Lucas in the first place. There must have been dozens of better candidates for that job.

Yup completely agree, an inexplicable signing. He was so unsuited to English football when he came, brushed off the ball so easily, it is to his credit that he has adapted to the physical side of the game. However he still gives away far to many unecessary silly free kicks in dangerous positions

 

[manwithnoname]

I agree with @gkmacca. What Rafa did to Lucas should have rendered him liable to prosecution for cruel and unusual punishment. We bought him as a successful box-to-box midfielder and Benitez locked him in a cage for years on end.

Lucas has himself admitted that he wasn't good enough to play "box to box" in the Premiership, lacking the pace, skill, quality and physicality for such a role.
He owes Benitez a huge amount of credit for shaping him into a defensive midfielder, the only role he can play with any degree of quality.

 

[Modo]

Yup completely agree, an inexplicable signing. He was so unsuited to English football when he came, brushed off the ball so easily, it is to his credit that he has adapted to the physical side of the game. However he still gives away far to many unecessary silly free kicks in dangerous positions

Benitez gave him a lot of chances in that box to box role, if I remember it correctly, and Lucas just wasn't good enough. I even hated him for being so ordinary.

I actually think Benitez helped Lucas by moving him to DM. Maybe he was expecting Lucas to be a lot more dynamic. Also, I don't think Lucas was fast and if he has lost pace it hasn't been that significant.

 

[gkmacca]

As Portly says, why on earth did Benitez buy him, then? 'I think that box-to-box player isn't good enough for this league, but if I sign him I reckon in a few years he might be an unpopular but competent defensive midfielder'? It's still a perverse-sounding move rather than a cause to congratulate him.

 

[jexykrodic]

Just as well we won yesterday! Seriously, just enjoy it.

Klopp might be turning the players from doubters to believers but he's not carrying the SCM moaners, is he?

 

[jexykrodic]

As Portly says, why on earth did Benitez buy him, then? 'I think that box-to-box player isn't good enough for this league, but if I sign him I reckon in a few years he might be an unpopular but competent defensive midfielder'? It's still a perverse-sounding move rather than a cause to congratulate him.

No doubt Rafa thought he was doing the right thing at the time and had probably missplaced his crystal ball.

 

[Mystic]

Maybe Benitez saw that Lucas wasn't a very good box to box midfielder for the premier league, and made him into a better player by spotting his potential in a different position?

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Fucking hell, can we take a bit of a reality check here - listening to half of this Besiktas were getting a fucking bargain at £4m - We had been touting him for a loan move for long enough with no takers. Clearly his replacement did not materialise.
Just for the record I said at the time I would rather keep him if we were not replacing him. Purely for some back up as is the case at the moment.
Macca , Portly and a couple of others are right he's not a natural DM and that is why he is looking no more than adequate currently.
Regards

 

[jexykrodic]

Reality is he's a Liverpool player, is being picked by a new boss and is doing a good job.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I don't know if he's a natural DM or not, or is there even is such a thing. But he's certainly a fairly decent one, and well above what a lot of people here seem to rate him as. He's obviously not the best in the world or close to it. Truth is that he's been one of best defensive players over the past 5 or 6 years, reasonably consistent(bad periods in there, usually straight after injuries).

He does give away a lot of frees, but a lot of them are calculated and intentional, and rarely do they lead to us conceding.

As most of his "fans" are saying, if we can get better, then great, if not he should start when ever he's fit. He's far from our biggest issue, our biggest issue is a lack of fit players that can score goals.

 

[manwithnoname]

Maybe Benitez saw that Lucas wasn't a very good box to box midfielder for the premier league, and made him into a better player by spotting his potential in a different position?

That's clearly true, but I think the point being made was why was he bought in the first place?

My view is simple: he was scouted and watched but his form in the Brazilian league wasn't representative of what he could do in a much faster, better, more intense and physical league like the Premiership. It's not like we haven't got a long track record of ill-advised signings.

 

[mark1975]

I don't know if he's a natural DM or not, or is there even is such a thing. But he's certainly a fairly decent one, and well above what a lot of people here seem to rate him as. He's obviously not the best in the world or close to it. Truth is that he's been one of best defensive players over the past 5 or 6 years, reasonably consistent(bad periods in there, usually straight after injuries).

He does give away a lot of frees, but a lot of them are calculated and intentional, and rarely do they lead to us conceding.

As most of his "fans" are saying, if we can get better, then great, if not he should start when ever he's fit. He's far from our biggest issue, our biggest issue is a lack of fit players that can score goals.

Agree with most of this, he's playing well so he deserves some slack, as it's a position that's notoriously difficult to buy for anyway. I mean, in the last 25 years we've probably had two worthy DM's in Masher and Didi, that's how hard a role it is to fill.

I don't really buy the cynical fouls point that people keep making though. He'll often have an opposition player turned away from him, going nowhere in an area of fairly non-immediate danger, yet he'll still stick out a foot and bring the player down. The problem then is that his fouls become accumulated and he gets booked. If he cut that out, he'd be alot more of an asset. I've lost count of the amount of times he's argued the toss to the ref, only for the ref to point out to the three areas of the pitch where he's committed the offense. That happens alot. It's unnecessary. Save it for when a team breaks and you do have to take a card for the greater good of your team, I have absolutely no problem with that as a tactic, but please just cut out the needless tackles.

His passing can also be very good and understated, but there were a few occasions at the weekend where he was under-hitting passes - he actually gifted Chelsea possession this way in the build up to their goal, people slated Milner and Moreno (rightly), but Lucas was as culpable for putting his teammate in trouble. So yeah, there are flaws that frustratingly still linger, but his plus points at the minute outweigh his bad. When he's on song with his passing, it can be as effective and understated as Sakho's, with clever 25-30 yard passes through congested areas of the pitch.

He's one of our lesser worries, but if/when some real quality becomes available, we should look to buy and also keep Lucas so we have two good players in that role, if that's feasible. I don't think that's particularly unfair on him, if we can do better we should, as with almost any player.

I think someone made a point earlier about the truth being somewhere between the exaggerations at both ends of the spectrum, he's a steady player who loves the club and gives his all when he plays. He's been here a longtime now and deserves probably a bit more respect than he's had from alot of posters (myself too at times). I don't think it needs to be said that every manager has stuck with him, managers have clearly tried to either sell him or give him competition, but for various reasons it hasn't happened and, fair play to Lucas, he's stuck it out and got his rewards as a consequence. Which is what we all want, right? A player who wants to play for us and wants to prove people wrong?

 

[Insignificance]

I don't know if he's a natural DM or not, or is there even is such a thing. But he's certainly a fairly decent one, and well above what a lot of people here seem to rate him as. He's obviously not the best in the world or close to it. Truth is that he's been one of best defensive players over the past 5 or 6 years, reasonably consistent(bad periods in there, usually straight after injuries).

He does give away a lot of frees, but a lot of them are calculated and intentional, and rarely do they lead to us conceding.

As most of his "fans" are saying, if we can get better, then great, if not he should start when ever he's fit. He's far from our biggest issue, our biggest issue is a lack of fit players that can score goals.

I agree, but I must say I am often worried about those freekicks he give away. They are in often in Dangerous areas, and although most of them doesn't lead to us conseding, enough of them has actually done it (at least it feels like). he should be more careful in those areas.

 

[gkmacca]

Agree with most of this, he's playing well so he deserves some slack, as it's a position that's notoriously difficult to buy for anyway. I mean, in the last 25 years we've probably had two worthy DM's in Masher and Didi, that's how hard a role it is to fill.

I don't really buy the cynical fouls point that people keep making though. He'll often have an opposition player turned away from him, going nowhere in an area of fairly non-immediate danger, yet he'll still stick out a foot and bring the player down. The problem then is that his fouls become accumulated and he gets booked. If he cut that out, he'd be alot more of an asset. I've lost count of the amount of times he's argued the toss to the ref, only for the ref to point out to the three areas of the pitch where he's commit the offense. That happens alot. It's unnecessary. Save it for when a team breaks and you do have to take a card for the greater good of your team, I have absolutely no problem with that as a tactic, but please just cut out the needless tackles.

Bang on.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Agree with most of this, he's playing well so he deserves some slack, as it's a position that's notoriously difficult to buy for anyway. I mean, in the last 25 years we've probably had two worthy DM's in Masher and Didi, that's how hard a role it is to fill.

I don't really buy the cynical fouls point that people keep making though. He'll often have an opposition player turned away from him, going nowhere in an area of fairly non-immediate danger, yet he'll still stick out a foot and bring the player down. The problem then is that his fouls become accumulated and he gets booked. If he cut that out, he'd be alot more of an asset. I've lost count of the amount of times he's argued the toss to the ref, only for the ref to point out to the three areas of the pitch where he's committed the offense. That happens alot. It's unnecessary. Save it for when a team breaks and you do have to take a card for the greater good of your team, I have absolutely no problem with that as a tactic, but please just cut out the needless tackles.

His passing can also be very good and understated, but there were a few occasions at the weekend where he was under-hitting passes - he actually gifted Chelsea possession this way in the build up to their goal, people slated Milner and Moreno (rightly), but Lucas was as culpable for putting his teammate in trouble. So yeah, there are flaws that frustratingly still linger, but his plus points at the minute outweigh his bad. When he's on song with his passing, it can be as effective and understated as Sakho's, with clever 25-30 passes through congested areas of the pitch.

He's one of our lesser worries, but when some real quality becomes available, we should look to buy and also keep Lucas so we have two good players in that role, if that's feasible. I don't think that's particularly unfair on him, if we can do better we should, as with almost any player.

I think someone made a point earlier about the truth being somewhere between the exaggerations at both ends of the spectrum, he's a steady player who loves the club and gives his all when he plays. He's been here a longtime now and deserves probably a bit more respect than he's had from alot of posters (myself too at times). I don't think it needs to be said that every manager has stuck with him, managers have clearly tried to either sell him or give him competition, but for various reasons it hasn't happened and, fair play to Lucas, he's stuck it out and got his rewards as a consequence, which is what we all want, right? A player who wants to play for us and wants to prove people wrong?

Yeah, agree with all that. He's not perfect, and every tackle isn't perfect. Some of the frees he gives away are pointless, the only argument I can make for that is that when you're told(as he obviously is) to go out and disrupt their play and rhythm, that you'll go overboard on occasion. I'd rather someone in his position give away too many fouls, than never give one away(if that happens, they're not getting involved enough).

 

[gkmacca]

They've got bespoke video compilations now to analyse, they've got Pep for one-on-one extra training sessions, he really can and should be working on this now, it's long overdue. That's what niggles me - he's not stupid, he's not lazy, and this habit isn't unavoidable.

 

[Modo]

OK, enough about Lucas potential and shit.

He's one yellow card away from a suspension for accumulating 5 yellow cards.

The cut off date is on new year, so don't expect him to hold out that long.

Now the big question is, should Klopp rest him against Crystal Palace in order to make sure that he can play against City?

 

[IGotALuvlyBunchOfCoconuts]

Nope, play our strongest team vs Palace as we have a greater chance of beating them then we do City.

 

[Modo]

Nope, play our strongest team vs Palace as we have a greater chance of beating them then we do City.

That's true but having Lucas on the pitch against City might give us a bigger chance to beat them as well or get a draw.
But I like how you're thinking. Lucas should try to be disciplined against Palace.

 

[Woland]

I also like the fact he's actually getting forward enough sometimes to have a shot on goal. I think I've always been in a minority of, er, one here, but I think there's still a more well-rounded footballer lurking in there. It's often forgotten what a peculiar career he's had: brought over from Brazil as a young, Gerrard-style dynamic and attacking midfielder, and then made to pretty much reinvent himself, on the pitch in front of the sceptical gaze of thousands of fans, as a profoundly different kind of player. And under huge pressure he actually managed it. Not well enough for some, but well enough, to unbiased eyes, to earn massive respect, if not the warmest admiration. Not since Bruce Jenner has there been such a high-profile reinvention.

And he's coped with it all with remarkably good grace. Rafa treated him like a bloke who'd drunkenly married a woman who looked like Sarah Millican and then spent years trying to make her look like Monica Bellucci. Brendan came in and hailed him as his great disciple, his brain on the pitch, and then gave him so many mixed messages he might as well have been a postman. And still he's here. Incredible. For a square peg in a round hole, he's become more well-rounded than anyone had a right to expect. So although some of the criticism is justified, he still merits plenty of praise for his performances. No one works harder, tries harder or cares more. And if Klopp can give him a bit more self-belief, a bit more technical focus, then he'll prove the doubters wrong again.

I agree with most that, he's always done what was asked of him to the best of his ability.

The one thing I don't understand is, he was this huge talent who got forward and made things happen when in Brazil... and Rafa knocked that out of him when he got here... But why have we never, ever seen any evidence, even an inkling that he ever had these creative abilities. It's not as if he'd have been flatly told to become shite in the final third just because he was expected to hang back most of the time. If he gets the ball on the edge of the box he has never looked for a killer pass... he looks sideways or backwards... and while you're gonna have a player or two like that in your side, surely if this myth that he was Gerrard style player at some point was true then he'd get a few neat assists here and there. There was that one goal against Benfica when he looked like an actual Brazilian, and that thing he did against Newcastle about a zillion years ago, but every DM will have a couple of them in a long career. I don't get it. I saw the highlight clips when we bought him and it did look like he had it all. Was he just playing against utter shite or what?

 

[ILD]

As Portly says, why on earth did Benitez buy him, then? 'I think that box-to-box player isn't good enough for this league, but if I sign him I reckon in a few years he might be an unpopular but competent defensive midfielder'? It's still a perverse-sounding move rather than a cause to congratulate him.

I presume Rafa and the club did have concerns over his ability to cope with the physicality of the premier league but felt it was worth taking the gamble on him. 7 million for him off the back of being Brazilian footballer of the year wasn't a crazy extortionate fee.

 

[ILD]

I agree with most that, he's always done what was asked of him to the best of his ability.

The one thing I don't understand is, he was this huge talent who got forward and made things happen when in Brazil... and Rafa knocked that out of him when he got here... But why have we never, ever seen any evidence, even an inkling that he ever had these creative abilities. It's not as if he'd have been flatly told to become shite in the final third just because he was expected to hang back most of the time. If he gets the ball on the edge of the box he has never looked for a killer pass... he looks sideways or backwards... and while you're gonna have a player or two like that in your side, surely if this myth that he was Gerrard style player at some point was true then he'd get a few neat assists here and there. There was that one goal against Benfica when he looked like an actual Brazilian, and that thing he did against Newcastle about a zillion years ago, but every DM will have a couple of them in a long career. I don't get it. I saw the highlight clips when we bought him and it did look like he had it all. Was he just playing against utter shite or what?

Yeah his attacking highlights for me are the Benfica goal, the Havent and Waterlooville goal, the Newcastle pass and winning the peno against Everton.

 

[Judge Jules]

Seems to me that there are a couple of separate issues which are getting tangled up together a fair bit in the discussion above. I don't think there can be any question that Lucas' attitude throughout has been spot on, but with respect a number of the posts above seem to me to have allowed that to affect the writers' view of his actual performance. The fact that he's an exemplary professional doesn't seem to me to be relevant in any way to a judgment of his quality on the pitch. I admire the former, but I have my reservations about the latter and I stand by them.

 

[Modo]

More proof that Lucas can't tackle.

Data courtesy of the EA SPORTS Player Performance Index, the Official Player Rating Index of the Barclays Premier League.

That Cedric Soares has got some amazing stats. Only one tackle lost? Tackle about precision.
Who the hell is Cedric Soares btw, I thought Wanyama was their DM?

Edit he's Clyne's replacement apparently. So, right fullback.

 

[Halmeister]

Apparently Lucas has scored 6 goals for us. Erm... What!?

Right...

Newcastle
Havant and Waterlooville
Steau Bucharest (I think)
There was one where he took it round the keeper in the Europa League but I can't find it anywhere...

And TWO more!?

Binny, get on the case and find vids of all 6 goals please because I'm not having it.

 

[Halmeister]

Nevermind, I did it myself... that was hard work.

The remaining goals were Crewe, Chelsea in that 4-4 and Benfica.