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Liverpool signings will get wide berth in summer

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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304043#msg1304043 date=1300836451]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44625.msg1304030#msg1304030 date=1300835818]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304020#msg1304020 date=1300834926]
Carroll scored what, 19 goals last season for Newcastle and 11 this year?

What pacy, direct winger with fantastic crossing ability did he have setting balls up on a 7 foot plate for him to glance home?

Joey Barton.

Exactly.

We don't need better versions of Jermaine Pennant. We just need good footballers in support of him and he'll score enough goals, regardless of where the ball's coming into him from. I really don't buy into this crossing-winger requirement everyone seems to think we need.

We need good wide players. If they can cross, great. It shouldn't be the sole pre-requisite though.
[/quote]

we need people to go down the wing and competently cross into the box, simple as. it's a flaw in our game and has been for well over a decade.
[/quote]

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not.

a) it's not 1972
b) we're not Wimbledon
[/quote]

I'm being completely serious. we try and be clever, 'oh, we need some one to play between the lines' when anyone with eyes can see what liverpool lack, and have lacked for ages is width. if rafa had bought a competent winger rather than keane and riera we probably would have won the league.

pretty much everything we do is narrow and in front of the opposition, I thought we could compensate with fullbacks that overlapped our narrow midfield but this hasn't happened so it's time to stop fitting square pegs (strikers) into round holes (pushing them out to the wing) and actually buy wingers or whatever you want to call a player with the ability to take the ball in a wide position and cross.

it's also worth noting that manu have dominated the league for two decades and ALWAYS had good width.
 
Neil - while I think it would be great - you just don't see that many goals that involve a tricky pacy winger beating his man and then crossing from the by-line onto the head of a big centre forward who's steaming into the box.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44625.msg1304030#msg1304030 date=1300835818]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304020#msg1304020 date=1300834926]
Carroll scored what, 19 goals last season for Newcastle and 11 this year?

What pacy, direct winger with fantastic crossing ability did he have setting balls up on a 7 foot plate for him to glance home?

Joey Barton.

Exactly.

We don't need better versions of Jermaine Pennant. We just need good footballers in support of him and he'll score enough goals, regardless of where the ball's coming into him from. I really don't buy into this crossing-winger requirement everyone seems to think we need.

We need good wide players. If they can cross, great. It shouldn't be the sole pre-requisite though.
[/quote]

we need people to go down the wing and competently cross into the box, simple as. it's a flaw in our game and has been for well over a decade.
[/quote]

Who goes down Arsenal's wing and "crosses competently into the box"?
Chelsea's?
Spurs? Bale? One assist all season. Lennon? The worst crosser of a ball in Britain.
Man City's?
United have gone all season without Valencia - their best crosser of a ball - and are top of the league, and on course for a treble.

You're talking shit Neil.
 
[quote author=Roopy link=topic=44625.msg1304086#msg1304086 date=1300858305]
We should sign Kosta Barbarouses.

He's a gun.
[/quote]

Hahahahahaha... Very good.
 
I'm gonna have to start speaking up more Ryan, cause you talk so much shit your asshole must be jealous. And that is despite the fact that I like you and respect that you are a good footballer and have very useful information to give.

Utd? Nani is their best crosser of the ball and he has a created a fair number of goals that way including a certain Berbatov header at OT (he has 174 crosses to his name this season). Giggs still finds the space out wide to supply his strikers with the ball. Valencia delivers the most balls and has been missed a lot, as evidence by Rooney's abysmal year.

City? Silva, Milner, and Johnson (thankfully this man is out of favor) all deliver crosses and help create goals that way. And what they do lack in supply shows in Dzeko's poor transition to their team.

Spurs? even if they don't result directly in goals the ability to stretch teams to the byline and constantly center balls makes their team a lot harder to defend. And if they had any player in the air that was as good as Carroll both Bale and Lennon would fill their boots with assists. Bale has a 160 crosses this year.

Arsenal? Walcott, Sagna and Clichy all deliver balls from wide positions. Not as much as the others but to be fair its not a very effective tactic when you have RvP and Cesc waiting in the center.

Even if the assists don't add up for these players and their teams the threat they offer is a necessary part to their attack. And more importantly none of those teams have a player like Carroll. A man who thrives in the air and can convert a lot of headers. Who did he have at Newcastle, Jonas Gutierrez a better winger than any we have. Truth is you are right that most of the top teams do not rely on crosses in order to win games but they most certainly do attack teams wide and deliver crosses, which makes them far less predictable and allows them space centrally. If you don't think we need at least one proper winger than go and look at the difference someone as average as Riera made to our team. from 4th and out of the title race in December to 2nd and in it until late April.
 
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=44625.msg1304088#msg1304088 date=1300859644]
I'm gonna have to start speaking up more Ryan, cause you talk so much shit your asshole must be jealous. And that is despite the fact that I like you and respect that you are a good footballer and have very useful information to give.

Utd? Nani is their best crosser of the ball and he has a created a fair number of goals that way including a certain Berbatov header at OT (he has 174 crosses to his name this season). Giggs still finds the space out wide to supply his strikers with the ball. Valencia delivers the most balls and has been missed a lot, as evidence by Rooney's abysmal year.

City? Silva, Milner, and Johnson (thankfully this man is out of favor) all deliver crosses and help create goals that way. And what they do lack in supply shows in Dzeko's poor transition to their team.

Spurs? even if they don't result directly in goals the ability to stretch teams to the byline and constantly center balls makes their team a lot harder to defend. And if they had any player in the air that was as good as Carroll both Bale and Lennon would fill their boots with assists. Bale has a 160 crosses this year.

Arsenal? Walcott, Sagna and Clichy all deliver balls from wide positions. Not as much as the others but to be fair its not a very effective tactic when you have RvP and Cesc waiting in the center.

Even if the assists don't add up for these players and their teams the threat they offer is a necessary part to their attack. And more importantly none of those teams have a player like Carroll. A man who thrives in the air and can convert a lot of headers. Who did he have at Newcastle, Jonas Gutierrez a better winger than any we have. Truth is you are right that most of the top teams do not rely on crosses in order to win games but they most certainly do attack teams wide and deliver crosses, which makes them far less predictable and allows them space centrally. If you don't think we need at least one proper winger than go and look at the difference someone as average as Riera made to our team. from 4th and out of the title race in December to 2nd and in it until late April.
[/quote]

was going to post this but you saved me the bother. anyone who watches liverpool and comes away with the conclusion we don't need width, well, I don't quite know how to respond to that...
 
Erm just to set the record straight - Joey Barton played only 15 games last season for Newcastle - supplying 2 assists.

Guthrie led Newcastle last season with 12 assists. Didn't watch Newcastle so don't know where he played mainly for them (CM or out wide; I suspect a mix of both). Going quickly through the match reports, I counted about 6 assists for Carroll's goals attributed to Guthrie. Maybe 2 or 3 were from dead ball situations.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=44625.msg1304048#msg1304048 date=1300836837]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44625.msg1303852#msg1303852 date=1300816633]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44625.msg1303841#msg1303841 date=1300815847]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44625.msg1303834#msg1303834 date=1300814819]
i don't want ashley young. too temperamental and lazy when not in the mood
[/quote]

Stereotypical bollocks. He's lightening quick, can beat a man, take a free quick and just the kind of player we lack.
[/quote]

i'm confused by the stereotypical part...

he can be a great player but he goes missing in more games than maxi. Just because he can be quick doesnt' mean he'll use it. and so what if he can take a free kick? so can suarez. plus he's piss weak.
Pretty sure most of the people we're linked to are better. Hazard, Sanchez, both better. Marveaux, probably not but at least hes cheap
[/quote]

I'm confused by the temperamental part Fab.

Is he?
[/quote]


Prob used the wrong word. He flits in and out of games and his crossing is average. Some games you'd barely notice his existence until he skies a cross past the opposite corner flag. He's quick but average. I'd like a quick winger but I'd like someone who had at least a modicum of intelligence. Yes hazard and sanchez are unproven in england but sanchez has done it on an international level, and hazard has shown a lot of promise. If young was a good enough winger, surely he'd have left villa by now. People are interested this season as he's playing off the striker and on the follow up. And we don't need that
 
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=44625.msg1304088#msg1304088 date=1300859644]

[/quote]

I think you are missing Ryan's point, mate. He doesn't say we don't need quality wide players or good delivery from out wide.

Ryan is bang on. Saying that we just need wide players who can cross the ball and that is enough to get Carroll scoring 20 headers per season is way oversimplifying the matter. What we need is quality who'll bring fluency to our attacking play and as part of that equation we'll also get the best out of Carroll.
 
I've never been convinced by Young - like many on here - and I don't see how he's worth 25M even at his best.

That said, if he's not being brought in as the main attacking purchase of the summer and is actually priced at 12M, it'd be a decent purchase. At his best, I've seen Young deliver countless goal scoring opportunities on a plate for the likes of Carew. If we could get Young playing like that, Carroll would eat that shit up.

It all really depends on the overall plan for our summer transfers. I think we need three new attacking midfielders / wingers to be honest. A complete overhaul. Young would be fine as one of them for the reported price.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=44625.msg1304110#msg1304110 date=1300869241]
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=44625.msg1304088#msg1304088 date=1300859644]

[/quote]

I think you are missing Ryan's point, mate. He doesn't say we don't need quality wide players or good delivery from out wide.

Ryan is bang on. Saying that we just need wide players who can cross the ball and that is enough to get Carroll scoring 20 headers per season is way oversimplifying the matter. What we need is quality who'll bring fluency to our attacking play and as part of that equation we'll also get the best out of Carroll.
[/quote]

saying we need someone to just tear down the wing and cross is oversimplifying, it's more accurate to say to say we need someone effective in a wide position i.e. they don't need to cut inside every five second and give the team good width. that said, I 'DO' think we need someone who can tear down the wing and cross.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44625.msg1304123#msg1304123 date=1300870194]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=44625.msg1304110#msg1304110 date=1300869241]
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=44625.msg1304088#msg1304088 date=1300859644]

[/quote]

I think you are missing Ryan's point, mate. He doesn't say we don't need quality wide players or good delivery from out wide.

Ryan is bang on. Saying that we just need wide players who can cross the ball and that is enough to get Carroll scoring 20 headers per season is way oversimplifying the matter. What we need is quality who'll bring fluency to our attacking play and as part of that equation we'll also get the best out of Carroll.
[/quote]

saying we need someone to just tear down the wing and cross is oversimplifying, it's more accurate to say to say we need someone effective in a wide position i.e. they don't need to cut inside every five second and give the team good width. that said, I 'DO' think we need someone who can tear down the wing and cross.
[/quote]

True we need something down the wing, and I'd love someone who was comfortable going either side of the full back. I don't think ashley young is that. At all. He's better than what we have but I want better.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44625.msg1304130#msg1304130 date=1300870515]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44625.msg1304123#msg1304123 date=1300870194]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=44625.msg1304110#msg1304110 date=1300869241]
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=44625.msg1304088#msg1304088 date=1300859644]

[/quote]

I think you are missing Ryan's point, mate. He doesn't say we don't need quality wide players or good delivery from out wide.

Ryan is bang on. Saying that we just need wide players who can cross the ball and that is enough to get Carroll scoring 20 headers per season is way oversimplifying the matter. What we need is quality who'll bring fluency to our attacking play and as part of that equation we'll also get the best out of Carroll.
[/quote]

saying we need someone to just tear down the wing and cross is oversimplifying, it's more accurate to say to say we need someone effective in a wide position i.e. they don't need to cut inside every five second and give the team good width. that said, I 'DO' think we need someone who can tear down the wing and cross.
[/quote]

True we need something down the wing, and I'd love someone who was comfortable going either side of the full back. I don't think ashley young is that. At all. He's better than what we have but I want better.
[/quote]

it's like keni says, if we bring in 2 or 3 wide players and that may happen) then I have no problem with young being one of them.
I think the wide positions will get a major overhaul in the summer, you don't spend 35m on a striker and then not play to his strengths.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44625.msg1304111#msg1304111 date=1300869281]
I've never been convinced by Young - like many on here - and I don't see how he's worth 25M even at his best.

That said, if he's not being brought in as the main attacking purchase of the summer and is actually priced at 12M, it'd be a decent purchase. At his best, I've seen Young deliver countless goal scoring opportunities on a plate for the likes of Carew. If we could get Young playing like that, Carroll would eat that shit up.

It all really depends on the overall plan for our summer transfers. I think we need three new attacking midfielders / wingers to be honest. A complete overhaul. Young would be fine as one of them for the reported price.
[/quote]

I can't see him going for more than £12m Keni when in 6 months time he'd be able to sign a pre-contract. He's in the last 12 months of a contract he won't renew from June. For that price, yes he's an option but I have massive concerns about his final ball quality like a lot of people. Or maybe I'm just spouting "stereotypical bollocks".
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304020#msg1304020 date=1300834926]
Carroll scored what, 19 goals last season for Newcastle and 11 this year?

What pacy, direct winger with fantastic crossing ability did he have setting balls up on a 7 foot plate for him to glance home?

Joey Barton.

Exactly.

We don't need better versions of Jermaine Pennant. We just need good footballers in support of him and he'll score enough goals, regardless of where the ball's coming into him from. I really don't buy into this crossing-winger requirement everyone seems to think we need.

We need good wide players. If they can cross, great. It shouldn't be the sole pre-requisite though.
[/quote]

Quite. Besides, the best delivery in our side (and probably as good as most on it's day) comes from two central attacking midfielders and a striker. Ho hum.

He'll score goals, there's enough quality around him to ensure it, he's not played with the likes of Gerrard, Ming and Suarez before and still scored goals, as you rightly pointed out.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44625.msg1304143#msg1304143 date=1300871732]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304020#msg1304020 date=1300834926]
Carroll scored what, 19 goals last season for Newcastle and 11 this year?

What pacy, direct winger with fantastic crossing ability did he have setting balls up on a 7 foot plate for him to glance home?

Joey Barton.

Exactly.

We don't need better versions of Jermaine Pennant. We just need good footballers in support of him and he'll score enough goals, regardless of where the ball's coming into him from. I really don't buy into this crossing-winger requirement everyone seems to think we need.

We need good wide players. If they can cross, great. It shouldn't be the sole pre-requisite though.
[/quote]

Quite. Besides, the best delivery in our side (and probably as good as most on it's day) comes from two central attacking midfielders and a striker. Ho hum.

He'll score goals, there's enough quality around him to ensure it, he's not played with the likes of Gerrard, Ming and Suarez before and still scored goals, as you rightly pointed out.
[/quote]

it's not only about carroll scoring goals its about strecthing teams, it's about having pace on the break, it's about getting behind teams and pulling the back. you can point to hard stats with regards to wide players from other team 'oh, lennon/bale has 1 goal whilst kuyt has 6' (or whatever) but players like lennon are helping spurs to win games and spurs have won more games than we have.
 
I think that we do need 'footballers' who can actually a deliver a ball into the right areas for carroll, and so I see your point for Joey Barton who is a btter crosser of the ball that any winger in the premiership... but at the same time our team is crying out for pace! We lack the get out ball that alot of teams use to relieve the pressure, like utd and spurs. We already have a good standard of footballers, so add a bit of pace, and we are slowly but surely getting there!
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44625.msg1304146#msg1304146 date=1300872471]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44625.msg1304143#msg1304143 date=1300871732]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304020#msg1304020 date=1300834926]
Carroll scored what, 19 goals last season for Newcastle and 11 this year?

What pacy, direct winger with fantastic crossing ability did he have setting balls up on a 7 foot plate for him to glance home?

Joey Barton.

Exactly.

We don't need better versions of Jermaine Pennant. We just need good footballers in support of him and he'll score enough goals, regardless of where the ball's coming into him from. I really don't buy into this crossing-winger requirement everyone seems to think we need.

We need good wide players. If they can cross, great. It shouldn't be the sole pre-requisite though.
[/quote]

Quite. Besides, the best delivery in our side (and probably as good as most on it's day) comes from two central attacking midfielders and a striker. Ho hum.

He'll score goals, there's enough quality around him to ensure it, he's not played with the likes of Gerrard, Ming and Suarez before and still scored goals, as you rightly pointed out.
[/quote]

it's not only about carroll scoring goals its about strecthing teams, it's about having pace on the break, it's about getting behind teams and pulling the back. you can point to hard stats with regards to wide players from other team 'oh, lennon/bale has 1 goal whilst kuyt has 6' (or whatever) but players like lennon are helping spurs to win games and spurs have won more games than we have.


[/quote]

Yeah but Lennon's not helping win games by being a 'great' crosser of the ball is he? The pace issue is completely separate, so I don't know why you persist in dragging Kuyt into the argument, he's a completely different player who provides another aspect to our play AND scores goals. And before anyone drags up the age old "he's inconsistent and shouldn't be undroppable", that's fair enough, but Bale and Lennon are equally inconsistent.

It's ok saying, well Lennon/Bale give more to the team in terms of pace, Kuyt gives more to the team in terms of goals and persistence. Neither takes priority over the other, the only time it should is if one of the other isn't working. Both are good options to have.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44625.msg1304163#msg1304163 date=1300873834]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44625.msg1304146#msg1304146 date=1300872471]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44625.msg1304143#msg1304143 date=1300871732]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44625.msg1304020#msg1304020 date=1300834926]
Carroll scored what, 19 goals last season for Newcastle and 11 this year?

What pacy, direct winger with fantastic crossing ability did he have setting balls up on a 7 foot plate for him to glance home?

Joey Barton.

Exactly.

We don't need better versions of Jermaine Pennant. We just need good footballers in support of him and he'll score enough goals, regardless of where the ball's coming into him from. I really don't buy into this crossing-winger requirement everyone seems to think we need.

We need good wide players. If they can cross, great. It shouldn't be the sole pre-requisite though.
[/quote]

Quite. Besides, the best delivery in our side (and probably as good as most on it's day) comes from two central attacking midfielders and a striker. Ho hum.

He'll score goals, there's enough quality around him to ensure it, he's not played with the likes of Gerrard, Ming and Suarez before and still scored goals, as you rightly pointed out.
[/quote]

it's not only about carroll scoring goals its about strecthing teams, it's about having pace on the break, it's about getting behind teams and pulling the back. you can point to hard stats with regards to wide players from other team 'oh, lennon/bale has 1 goal whilst kuyt has 6' (or whatever) but players like lennon are helping spurs to win games and spurs have won more games than we have.


[/quote]

Yeah but he's not helping win games by being a 'great' crosser of the ball is he? The pace issue is completely separate, so I don't know why you persist in dragging Kuyt into the argument, he's a completely different player who provides another aspect to our play and goals.

It's ok saying, well Lennon/Bale give more to the team in terms of pace, Kuyt gives more to the team in terms of goals and persistence. Neither takes priority over the other, the only time it should is if one of the other isn't working. Both are good options to have.
[/quote]
x2

i'd rather have a player who's intelligent to work across the front 3. Like suarez (although we'll struggle to get another gem like him) he can do it all. Can go the byline, can cross, can shoot, has pace and has strength. With direction he could easily go to the wing
 
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=44625.msg1304172#msg1304172 date=1300874468]
I love it when Neil digs himself into a hole.
[/quote]

we need width. the end.

we can dance around the issue but that's the bottom line.
 
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=44625.msg1304172#msg1304172 date=1300874468]
I love it when Neil digs himself into a hole.
[/quote]

I don't think he has. Essentially he's right - at the moment our squad doesn't even have the *option* of pace and width. It's simply not part of our tactical armoury, and that makes us woefully predictable and easy to defend against. Watch the last Braga game for confirmation, or even the Sunderland game: if we'd had someone like Young (who I don't even rate all that highly) or Lennon, we'd have been able to rip them apart on the counter. Obviously it's not the ONLY way we'll score goals, but to deny that we need to buy at least one fast forward who can stay wide and cross is to ignore our blatant shortcomings.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=44625.msg1304219#msg1304219 date=1300877232]
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=44625.msg1304172#msg1304172 date=1300874468]
I love it when Neil digs himself into a hole.
[/quote]

I don't think he has. Essentially he's right - at the moment our squad doesn't even have the *option* of pace and width. It's simply not part of our tactical armoury, and that makes us woefully predictable and easy to defend against. Watch the last Braga game for confirmation, or even the Sunderland game: if we'd had someone like Young (who I don't even rate all that highly) or Lennon, we'd have been able to rip them apart on the counter. Obviously it's not the ONLY way we'll score goals, but to deny that we need to buy at least one fast forward who can stay wide and cross is to ignore our blatant shortcomings.
[/quote]

That hits the nail on the head for me. It's not about getting crosses in, but a good winger will provide width thus stretching teams and opening up the middle, and pace.

Ashley Young whilst not as technically able as a Hazard, will provide the pace and directness that we are lacking.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44625.msg1304228#msg1304228 date=1300877837]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=44625.msg1304219#msg1304219 date=1300877232]
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=44625.msg1304172#msg1304172 date=1300874468]
I love it when Neil digs himself into a hole.
[/quote]

I don't think he has. Essentially he's right - at the moment our squad doesn't even have the *option* of pace and width. It's simply not part of our tactical armoury, and that makes us woefully predictable and easy to defend against. Watch the last Braga game for confirmation, or even the Sunderland game: if we'd had someone like Young (who I don't even rate all that highly) or Lennon, we'd have been able to rip them apart on the counter. Obviously it's not the ONLY way we'll score goals, but to deny that we need to buy at least one fast forward who can stay wide and cross is to ignore our blatant shortcomings.
[/quote]

That hits the nail on the head for me. It's not about getting crosses in, but a good winger will provide width thus stretching teams and opening up the middle, and pace.

Ashley Young whilst not as technically able as a Hazard, will provide the pace and directness that we are lacking.
[/quote]

Don't agree with the bolded bit. Good crosses are an important part, perhaps the most important one, of what we'll need from quality wide men, especially as Carroll gets into his stride.
 
Hazard's an interesting case. Talented lad all right, but when I've seen him (admittedly in clips only) he's come inside off his wing a lot of the time, which IMO is not what we need. Same goes for Young, which is one reason why I don't really want him.
 
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