• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Legacies - Rafa vs Ged

Status
Not open for further replies.
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113663#msg1113663 date=1275724242]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]
And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million.

.....but finished 7th.
[/quote]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument, rafa is gone so its pointless I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around and leave it there. what's done is done.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

okay, he didn't.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113671#msg1113671 date=1275724884]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
[/quote]

Anyone. I'm past caring.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113672#msg1113672 date=1275725015]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113671#msg1113671 date=1275724884]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
[/quote]

Anyone. I'm past caring.
[/quote]

I'll make you care again!
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113671#msg1113671 date=1275724884]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
[/quote]

for me its, kenny in the short term and someone with a good footballing mentality in the long term. I've just just about all I can take for cautious football, I think 10 years is long enough for that brand of football.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=40459.msg1113673#msg1113673 date=1275725253]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113672#msg1113672 date=1275725015]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113671#msg1113671 date=1275724884]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
[/quote]

Anyone. I'm past caring.
[/quote]

I'll make you care again!
[/quote]


YIKES!! there's an offer and a half sheiky
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=40459.msg1113673#msg1113673 date=1275725253]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113672#msg1113672 date=1275725015]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113671#msg1113671 date=1275724884]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
[/quote]

Anyone. I'm past caring.
[/quote]

I'll make you care again!
[/quote]

You might have a tough job on your hands.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Why-Rafa-Benitez-leaves-Liverpool-as-a-legend-not-the-failure-his-history-rewriting-critics-insist-The-Brian-Reade-Column-article448527.html


Right to the end the professional pundits failed to understand why so many Liverpudlians stayed loyal to Rafa Benitez.

As 500 fans marched on Anfield after his departure, chanting the Spaniard’s name, heads shook at a footballing sub-species bracketed *somewhere between romantic die-hards and mawkish morons.

To the “expert†eye, these deluded fools had been conned by Benitez’s cunning and blinded to his failings by the glory of Istanbul and the *criminal incompetence of the American owners.

Liverpool fans they said, once among the most knowledgeable in the world, had clearly lost touch with the modern reality, and were now a sad throwback to the days when sideburned men kicked orange balls.

Well, I’d argue one of the saddest aspects of modern *football is too many pundits, including ex-players, have not paid to watch a game since those orange ball days. And they’ve lost touch with the fan.

I’m not saying Benitez had to stay. The results and the football last year were shocking, he’s been a major player in Anfield’s destructive civil war, and the number of fans disillusioned with his style and methods was growing.

But to paint his six-year reign as an unmitigated disaster, sustained only by the over-sentimentalising of Istanbul, is analysis at its most skewed and cringeful. By 2004 Liverpool had been relegated to the status of European also-rans. Benitez made the club a genuine world force again.

It wasn’t just that 2005 *Champions League win (which is shamelessly downplayed as a fluke despite beating Fabio Capello’s Juventus, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea and Carlo Ancelotti’s AC Milan). Or reaching the 2007 Champions League final and the 2008 semi-final. It wasn’t even UEFA elevating Liverpool to Europe’s top-seeded club due to results under Benitez.

It was beating Real Madrid and Inter Milan at the Bernabeu and San Siro (which the Reds had never before done) and Barcelona at the Nou Camp. Magical victories at the very top of world football, which restored long-overdue respect to Liverpudlian hearts.

Ah say the experts, but he didn’t win the league. True. But he got closer than any Liverpool boss in the past 20 years. A season ago he was a whisker away, taking the highest number of points by a runner-up in a 38-game season and the club’s best points haul since 1988.

And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million. Which should have made experts ask why Liverpool were ever considered a nailed-on top four side under Benitez, especially when the boardroom was mired in anarchy.

Ah, they say, but he’d long lost the players and the board. So why have Steven Gerrard, Fernando Torres, Daniel Agger, Dirk Kuyt and Pepe Reina signed new long-term contracts within the past year? Why last August did managing director Christian Purslow do interviews purring over Benitez and how he was integral to the club’s future?

Ah, the experts say, but that was before he let Xabi Alonso go, which everyone could see was a calamity. These would be the same experts who, for the previous couple of seasons, claimed Liverpool were a two-man team. With Alonso (on whom Benitez turned a £20million profit) never being mentioned as one of those two.

Ah, they say, but Torres apart, he only signed sub-standard dross and ended up with a shockingly-weak squad. Really?

Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.

Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?

The truth is Benitez leaves a squad worth many times more than the one he inherited, despite spending less in the past three transfer windows than he’s brought in.

I don’t seek to rewrite history or airbrush Benitez’s *failings. I saw last year’s football and it stank. I felt the growing anger among players and fans at his single-mindedness and knew something had to give.

Which is why it may be best for all concerned that he walks on. But now he has, let’s do him the honour of getting his legacy right.

Rafa Benitez was many things at Liverpool but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure. Indeed a majority of *Liverpudlians will remember him as a legend.

Because like Bill Shankly, on more days and nights than those expert pundits ever care to recall, he made the people happy. a


5th highest wage bill, ros. I knew that guardian piece was inaccurate
[/quote]

Are you really that fucking stupid ?

The Guardian article has every single club's most recent accounts detailed, nobody knows what Liverpool's wage bill was for the season just gone never mind any of the other clubs.

That's only idle speculation from Reade, just like it was the last time you mentioned it. In fact the rest of his facts and figures are wrong too.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=40459.msg1113673#msg1113673 date=1275725253]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113672#msg1113672 date=1275725015]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113671#msg1113671 date=1275724884]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113669#msg1113669 date=1275724654]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]

I'm not going to get roped into another argument. I will just say he deserved a chance to turn it around

[/quote]

Oh no he didn't.
[/quote]

Have you made up your mind about who you want to come in yet Sheiky (i'm probably quiffing here)?
[/quote]

Anyone. I'm past caring.
[/quote]

I'll make you care again!
[/quote]

😱
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113680#msg1113680 date=1275726092]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Why-Rafa-Benitez-leaves-Liverpool-as-a-legend-not-the-failure-his-history-rewriting-critics-insist-The-Brian-Reade-Column-article448527.html


Right to the end the professional pundits failed to understand why so many Liverpudlians stayed loyal to Rafa Benitez.

As 500 fans marched on Anfield after his departure, chanting the Spaniard’s name, heads shook at a footballing sub-species bracketed *somewhere between romantic die-hards and mawkish morons.

To the “expert†eye, these deluded fools had been conned by Benitez’s cunning and blinded to his failings by the glory of Istanbul and the *criminal incompetence of the American owners.

Liverpool fans they said, once among the most knowledgeable in the world, had clearly lost touch with the modern reality, and were now a sad throwback to the days when sideburned men kicked orange balls.

Well, I’d argue one of the saddest aspects of modern *football is too many pundits, including ex-players, have not paid to watch a game since those orange ball days. And they’ve lost touch with the fan.

I’m not saying Benitez had to stay. The results and the football last year were shocking, he’s been a major player in Anfield’s destructive civil war, and the number of fans disillusioned with his style and methods was growing.

But to paint his six-year reign as an unmitigated disaster, sustained only by the over-sentimentalising of Istanbul, is analysis at its most skewed and cringeful. By 2004 Liverpool had been relegated to the status of European also-rans. Benitez made the club a genuine world force again.

It wasn’t just that 2005 *Champions League win (which is shamelessly downplayed as a fluke despite beating Fabio Capello’s Juventus, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea and Carlo Ancelotti’s AC Milan). Or reaching the 2007 Champions League final and the 2008 semi-final. It wasn’t even UEFA elevating Liverpool to Europe’s top-seeded club due to results under Benitez.

It was beating Real Madrid and Inter Milan at the Bernabeu and San Siro (which the Reds had never before done) and Barcelona at the Nou Camp. Magical victories at the very top of world football, which restored long-overdue respect to Liverpudlian hearts.

Ah say the experts, but he didn’t win the league. True. But he got closer than any Liverpool boss in the past 20 years. A season ago he was a whisker away, taking the highest number of points by a runner-up in a 38-game season and the club’s best points haul since 1988.

And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million. Which should have made experts ask why Liverpool were ever considered a nailed-on top four side under Benitez, especially when the boardroom was mired in anarchy.

Ah, they say, but he’d long lost the players and the board. So why have Steven Gerrard, Fernando Torres, Daniel Agger, Dirk Kuyt and Pepe Reina signed new long-term contracts within the past year? Why last August did managing director Christian Purslow do interviews purring over Benitez and how he was integral to the club’s future?

Ah, the experts say, but that was before he let Xabi Alonso go, which everyone could see was a calamity. These would be the same experts who, for the previous couple of seasons, claimed Liverpool were a two-man team. With Alonso (on whom Benitez turned a £20million profit) never being mentioned as one of those two.

Ah, they say, but Torres apart, he only signed sub-standard dross and ended up with a shockingly-weak squad. Really?

Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.

Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?

The truth is Benitez leaves a squad worth many times more than the one he inherited, despite spending less in the past three transfer windows than he’s brought in.

I don’t seek to rewrite history or airbrush Benitez’s *failings. I saw last year’s football and it stank. I felt the growing anger among players and fans at his single-mindedness and knew something had to give.

Which is why it may be best for all concerned that he walks on. But now he has, let’s do him the honour of getting his legacy right.

Rafa Benitez was many things at Liverpool but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure. Indeed a majority of *Liverpudlians will remember him as a legend.

Because like Bill Shankly, on more days and nights than those expert pundits ever care to recall, he made the people happy. a


5th highest wage bill, ros. I knew that guardian piece was inaccurate
[/quote]

Are you really that fucking stupid ?

The Guardian article has every single club's most recent accounts detailed, nobody knows what Liverpool's wage bill was for the season just gone never mind any of the other clubs.

That's only idle speculation from Reade, just like it was the last time you mentioned it. In fact the rest of his facts and figures are wrong too.
[/quote]

I'm not going to believe liverpool have a higher wage bill than spurs and man city
these are the figures for 2009

Club
2007/09 Total wage costs (£'000s)
Percentage increase

Chelsea
£172,096
30%

Man United
£121,080
31%

Arsenal
£101,302
13%

Liverpool
£90,438
17%

since then man city have gone out and bought a sea of players including tevez and we sold a high earner in alonso.
I am curious as to were the guardian got their facts from.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113662#msg1113662 date=1275724169]
Great piece by Brian Reade + he's right about Rafa, he will be remembered by most LFC fans as a legend.
[/quote]
I know you and others will Rafa, and I respect that.
Reade does what he does, write controversial and hard hitting articles, not that this was one of them particularly, but hardly surprisingly I tend to come down on most of what the experts/pundits say, and not what is the reality according to Reade, which is a surprise as I have paid to watch, nearly every home game, since the orange ball days.
The strange thing is that most of the people that I know in that very same position feel much the same as me, and have for done for a while, and those that have not certainly do now.
I even remember people at the match being critical of Benitez and thinking how disloyal they were, and how unreasonable.
As this is a thread in comparison of Houllier and Rafa, to bring it back on topic a little I refer back to where Reade says that Rafa "but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure." That is unfair on Houlllier, particularly when there are so many parallels and also considering the comparative positions they both inherited on arrival. Reade also talks on the comparative values of the squads that Houllier left and Rafa left, when you consider that football inflation has doubled since Houlliers days, £14m was the figure being paid for a top class forward then, £25-£30m now, oh yes and I am sure we could pick out (at least) 12 players from Houllier's squad that were taken with the top international squads.
I am not sure I would remember him as a legend, as I feel that is reserved for people that you never really want to see leave or retire, and I can't say that about Rafa, I can't say it about Ged either.
I can say honestly say that Istanbul did bring me the biggest high of my life as a Liverpool supporter, mainly through the circumstances of the game to be honest, he did what he thought was best for the club, and genuinely loved the club , the City and the fans, and that could be said for any of the managers we had.
Like Ged he reached a point where he was doing more harm than good and like Ged thought his way was the only way and was single minded in that respect which ultimately brought their downfall.


regards
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113680#msg1113680 date=1275726092]


Are you really that fucking stupid ?


[/quote]

*puts hand in the air and jumps up and down wildly*

Me, me, me, me, me ...Can I answer that



regards
 
one thing I'm surprised about is my lack of emotion with the depature of rafa. I'm pretty much 'meh', I have no idea why that is. maybe I'm in shock, maybe I had braced myself for his exit too well because it was on the cards, maybe despite defending him I was tired of the cautious football, maybe I was tired of the cold alof manner he dealt with players (which, if I'm honest fucked me off). I thought I would feel more broken up about rafa leaving but the honest truth is, I don't.
 
look, I don't insult people on the site, don't join in when others insult people on the site, don't purposely go out of my to insult people, always try to debate my corner rather than stressing my opinion as fact, so why do people feel the need to insult me? seriously?

I read the guardian piece and didn't think it was accurate, and to be fair to myself I see lots of figures in the press posted as fact, like rafa's spending which I've seen as low as 220m and as high as 250m so which of the articles is accurate? I really don't appreciate being called stupid for stressing an opinion and I'm getting pretty fucked off about it if I'm being honest.
 
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=40459.msg1113693#msg1113693 date=1275728297]
You tell 'em Spidey.





[size=6pt]ps It's 'site'. Nice edit stoopid.[/size]
[/quote]

😛
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113685#msg1113685 date=1275727207]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113680#msg1113680 date=1275726092]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Why-Rafa-Benitez-leaves-Liverpool-as-a-legend-not-the-failure-his-history-rewriting-critics-insist-The-Brian-Reade-Column-article448527.html


Right to the end the professional pundits failed to understand why so many Liverpudlians stayed loyal to Rafa Benitez.

As 500 fans marched on Anfield after his departure, chanting the Spaniard’s name, heads shook at a footballing sub-species bracketed *somewhere between romantic die-hards and mawkish morons.

To the “expert†eye, these deluded fools had been conned by Benitez’s cunning and blinded to his failings by the glory of Istanbul and the *criminal incompetence of the American owners.

Liverpool fans they said, once among the most knowledgeable in the world, had clearly lost touch with the modern reality, and were now a sad throwback to the days when sideburned men kicked orange balls.

Well, I’d argue one of the saddest aspects of modern *football is too many pundits, including ex-players, have not paid to watch a game since those orange ball days. And they’ve lost touch with the fan.

I’m not saying Benitez had to stay. The results and the football last year were shocking, he’s been a major player in Anfield’s destructive civil war, and the number of fans disillusioned with his style and methods was growing.

But to paint his six-year reign as an unmitigated disaster, sustained only by the over-sentimentalising of Istanbul, is analysis at its most skewed and cringeful. By 2004 Liverpool had been relegated to the status of European also-rans. Benitez made the club a genuine world force again.

It wasn’t just that 2005 *Champions League win (which is shamelessly downplayed as a fluke despite beating Fabio Capello’s Juventus, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea and Carlo Ancelotti’s AC Milan). Or reaching the 2007 Champions League final and the 2008 semi-final. It wasn’t even UEFA elevating Liverpool to Europe’s top-seeded club due to results under Benitez.

It was beating Real Madrid and Inter Milan at the Bernabeu and San Siro (which the Reds had never before done) and Barcelona at the Nou Camp. Magical victories at the very top of world football, which restored long-overdue respect to Liverpudlian hearts.

Ah say the experts, but he didn’t win the league. True. But he got closer than any Liverpool boss in the past 20 years. A season ago he was a whisker away, taking the highest number of points by a runner-up in a 38-game season and the club’s best points haul since 1988.

And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million. Which should have made experts ask why Liverpool were ever considered a nailed-on top four side under Benitez, especially when the boardroom was mired in anarchy.

Ah, they say, but he’d long lost the players and the board. So why have Steven Gerrard, Fernando Torres, Daniel Agger, Dirk Kuyt and Pepe Reina signed new long-term contracts within the past year? Why last August did managing director Christian Purslow do interviews purring over Benitez and how he was integral to the club’s future?

Ah, the experts say, but that was before he let Xabi Alonso go, which everyone could see was a calamity. These would be the same experts who, for the previous couple of seasons, claimed Liverpool were a two-man team. With Alonso (on whom Benitez turned a £20million profit) never being mentioned as one of those two.

Ah, they say, but Torres apart, he only signed sub-standard dross and ended up with a shockingly-weak squad. Really?

Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.

Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?

The truth is Benitez leaves a squad worth many times more than the one he inherited, despite spending less in the past three transfer windows than he’s brought in.

I don’t seek to rewrite history or airbrush Benitez’s *failings. I saw last year’s football and it stank. I felt the growing anger among players and fans at his single-mindedness and knew something had to give.

Which is why it may be best for all concerned that he walks on. But now he has, let’s do him the honour of getting his legacy right.

Rafa Benitez was many things at Liverpool but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure. Indeed a majority of *Liverpudlians will remember him as a legend.

Because like Bill Shankly, on more days and nights than those expert pundits ever care to recall, he made the people happy. a


5th highest wage bill, ros. I knew that guardian piece was inaccurate
[/quote]

Are you really that fucking stupid ?

The Guardian article has every single club's most recent accounts detailed, nobody knows what Liverpool's wage bill was for the season just gone never mind any of the other clubs.

That's only idle speculation from Reade, just like it was the last time you mentioned it. In fact the rest of his facts and figures are wrong too.
[/quote]

I'm not going to believe liverpool have a higher wage bill than spurs and man city
these are the figures for 2009

Club
2007/09 Total wage costs (£'000s)
Percentage increase

Chelsea
£172,096
30%

Man United
£121,080
31%

Arsenal
£101,302
13%

Liverpool
£90,438
17%

since then man city have gone out and bought a sea of players including tevez and we sold a high earner in alonso.
I am curious as to were the guardian got their facts from.
[/quote]

Spidey there is simply no way of knowing. You can start by assessing what changes have been made since everyone's last set of accounts accounts came out if you like but the likelihood of getting accurate wage figures is pretty low.

There is simply no evidence to say it's one way or the other so I don't see why people have to make up "facts" to defend a manager who is now thankfully out of our club.

Spidey if you don't think figures lifted directly from a club's financial accounts are accurate then just go and make up whatever fucking nonsense suits your argument Rebel style.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113695#msg1113695 date=1275728479]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113685#msg1113685 date=1275727207]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113680#msg1113680 date=1275726092]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Why-Rafa-Benitez-leaves-Liverpool-as-a-legend-not-the-failure-his-history-rewriting-critics-insist-The-Brian-Reade-Column-article448527.html


Right to the end the professional pundits failed to understand why so many Liverpudlians stayed loyal to Rafa Benitez.

As 500 fans marched on Anfield after his departure, chanting the Spaniard’s name, heads shook at a footballing sub-species bracketed *somewhere between romantic die-hards and mawkish morons.

To the “expert†eye, these deluded fools had been conned by Benitez’s cunning and blinded to his failings by the glory of Istanbul and the *criminal incompetence of the American owners.

Liverpool fans they said, once among the most knowledgeable in the world, had clearly lost touch with the modern reality, and were now a sad throwback to the days when sideburned men kicked orange balls.

Well, I’d argue one of the saddest aspects of modern *football is too many pundits, including ex-players, have not paid to watch a game since those orange ball days. And they’ve lost touch with the fan.

I’m not saying Benitez had to stay. The results and the football last year were shocking, he’s been a major player in Anfield’s destructive civil war, and the number of fans disillusioned with his style and methods was growing.

But to paint his six-year reign as an unmitigated disaster, sustained only by the over-sentimentalising of Istanbul, is analysis at its most skewed and cringeful. By 2004 Liverpool had been relegated to the status of European also-rans. Benitez made the club a genuine world force again.

It wasn’t just that 2005 *Champions League win (which is shamelessly downplayed as a fluke despite beating Fabio Capello’s Juventus, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea and Carlo Ancelotti’s AC Milan). Or reaching the 2007 Champions League final and the 2008 semi-final. It wasn’t even UEFA elevating Liverpool to Europe’s top-seeded club due to results under Benitez.

It was beating Real Madrid and Inter Milan at the Bernabeu and San Siro (which the Reds had never before done) and Barcelona at the Nou Camp. Magical victories at the very top of world football, which restored long-overdue respect to Liverpudlian hearts.

Ah say the experts, but he didn’t win the league. True. But he got closer than any Liverpool boss in the past 20 years. A season ago he was a whisker away, taking the highest number of points by a runner-up in a 38-game season and the club’s best points haul since 1988.

And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million. Which should have made experts ask why Liverpool were ever considered a nailed-on top four side under Benitez, especially when the boardroom was mired in anarchy.

Ah, they say, but he’d long lost the players and the board. So why have Steven Gerrard, Fernando Torres, Daniel Agger, Dirk Kuyt and Pepe Reina signed new long-term contracts within the past year? Why last August did managing director Christian Purslow do interviews purring over Benitez and how he was integral to the club’s future?

Ah, the experts say, but that was before he let Xabi Alonso go, which everyone could see was a calamity. These would be the same experts who, for the previous couple of seasons, claimed Liverpool were a two-man team. With Alonso (on whom Benitez turned a £20million profit) never being mentioned as one of those two.

Ah, they say, but Torres apart, he only signed sub-standard dross and ended up with a shockingly-weak squad. Really?

Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.

Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?

The truth is Benitez leaves a squad worth many times more than the one he inherited, despite spending less in the past three transfer windows than he’s brought in.

I don’t seek to rewrite history or airbrush Benitez’s *failings. I saw last year’s football and it stank. I felt the growing anger among players and fans at his single-mindedness and knew something had to give.

Which is why it may be best for all concerned that he walks on. But now he has, let’s do him the honour of getting his legacy right.

Rafa Benitez was many things at Liverpool but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure. Indeed a majority of *Liverpudlians will remember him as a legend.

Because like Bill Shankly, on more days and nights than those expert pundits ever care to recall, he made the people happy. a


5th highest wage bill, ros. I knew that guardian piece was inaccurate
[/quote]

Are you really that fucking stupid ?

The Guardian article has every single club's most recent accounts detailed, nobody knows what Liverpool's wage bill was for the season just gone never mind any of the other clubs.

That's only idle speculation from Reade, just like it was the last time you mentioned it. In fact the rest of his facts and figures are wrong too.
[/quote]

I'm not going to believe liverpool have a higher wage bill than spurs and man city
these are the figures for 2009

Club
2007/09 Total wage costs (£'000s)
Percentage increase

Chelsea
£172,096
30%

Man United
£121,080
31%

Arsenal
£101,302
13%

Liverpool
£90,438
17%

since then man city have gone out and bought a sea of players including tevez and we sold a high earner in alonso.
I am curious as to were the guardian got their facts from.
[/quote]

Spidey there is simply no way of knowing. You can start by assessing what changes have been made since everyone's last set of accounts accounts came out if you like but the likelihood of getting accurate wage figures is pretty low.

There is simply no evidence to say it's one way or the other so I don't see why people have to make up "facts" to defend a manager who is now thankfully out of our club.

Spidey if you don't think figures lifted directly from a club's financial accounts are accurate then just go and make up whatever fucking nonsense suits your argument Rebel style.
[/quote]

okay then, I will say that liverpool having a higher wage bill than man city is surprising. the only I brought up wage because I think it has a signficant say in performance as it attracts and keeps top talent. I'll leave it there.
also I try not to make stuff up, I obviously read the 'the 5th highest wage bill' from the same place reade did, if the guardian piece did indeed lift the figures from accounts then so be it but even then we have a lower wage bill than manu, chelsea and arsenal but admittedly a high enough wage bill to be finishing top 4.
 
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]

well there is no arguement we massively underachieved, the difference of opinion is I thought he (rafa) should have been given another season based on the title challenge of season before last, whilst many on this site believed it was time to cut our loses. no one on any site believes this season was anything other than a disaster it's whether or not you believed he deserved a second chance.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]

During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.

Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]A tip top world cup 11
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]

During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.

Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]

This will get ignored.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113723#msg1113723 date=1275731011]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]

During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.

Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]

This will get ignored.
[/quote]

I noticed it.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113687#msg1113687 date=1275727395]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113662#msg1113662 date=1275724169]
Great piece by Brian Reade + he's right about Rafa, he will be remembered by most LFC fans as a legend.
[/quote]
I know you and others will Rafa, and I respect that.
Reade does what he does, write controversial and hard hitting articles, not that this was one of them particularly, but hardly surprisingly I tend to come down on most of what the experts/pundits say, and not what is the reality according to Reade, which is a surprise as I have paid to watch, nearly every home game, since the orange ball days.
The strange thing is that most of the people that I know in that very same position feel much the same as me, and have for done for a while, and those that have not certainly do now.
I even remember people at the match being critical of Benitez and thinking how disloyal they were, and how unreasonable.
As this is a thread in comparison of Houllier and Rafa, to bring it back on topic a little I refer back to where Reade says that Rafa "but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure." That is unfair on Houlllier, particularly when there are so many parallels and also considering the comparative positions they both inherited on arrival. Reade also talks on the comparative values of the squads that Houllier left and Rafa left, when you consider that football inflation has doubled since Houlliers days, £14m was the figure being paid for a top class forward then, £25-£30m now, oh yes and I am sure we could pick out (at least) 12 players from Houllier's squad that were taken with the top international squads.
I am not sure I would remember him as a legend, as I feel that is reserved for people that you never really want to see leave or retire, and I can't say that about Rafa, I can't say it about Ged either.
I can say honestly say that Istanbul did bring me the biggest high of my life as a Liverpool supporter, mainly through the circumstances of the game to be honest, he did what he thought was best for the club, and genuinely loved the club , the City and the fans, and that could be said for any of the managers we had.
Like Ged he reached a point where he was doing more harm than good and like Ged thought his way was the only way and was single minded in that respect which ultimately brought their downfall.


regards
[/quote]


It seems that even the best posters on this site are biased when it comes to the subject of Rafa mate, thats not a dig it's just how i honestly see it.

The Rafa fans will point to:

He produced some of the best results in our history, whilst having a win ratio which is favourable in comparison to most of our past great managers.
He signed some fantastic players that wouldn't look out of place in any LFC side.
The only managers to win more trophies than him are the ones who spent a shed load more on Transfers/Wages (easily £30m more per season).

The Rafa haters will simply respond:

Wasted money on shite players
He's too stubborn
Doesn't get the best out of the players
He's lost the dressing room

You can make a good argument for every point stated, i guess it just depends on if you were a fan of his or not?

Anyways he's gone so lets just look forward and hope we get in a manager who we can all respect and be proud of.

I loved Rafa and he'll always be a legend in my eyes though.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=40459.msg1113724#msg1113724 date=1275731052]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113723#msg1113723 date=1275731011]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.

It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.

What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]

During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.

Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]

This will get ignored.
[/quote]

I noticed it.
[/quote]

Yes, but you weren't going to give up watching LFC if Rafa was still in charge next season.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113753#msg1113753 date=1275733112]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113687#msg1113687 date=1275727395]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1113662#msg1113662 date=1275724169]
Great piece by Brian Reade + he's right about Rafa, he will be remembered by most LFC fans as a legend.
[/quote]
I know you and others will Rafa, and I respect that.
Reade does what he does, write controversial and hard hitting articles, not that this was one of them particularly, but hardly surprisingly I tend to come down on most of what the experts/pundits say, and not what is the reality according to Reade, which is a surprise as I have paid to watch, nearly every home game, since the orange ball days.
The strange thing is that most of the people that I know in that very same position feel much the same as me, and have for done for a while, and those that have not certainly do now.
I even remember people at the match being critical of Benitez and thinking how disloyal they were, and how unreasonable.
As this is a thread in comparison of Houllier and Rafa, to bring it back on topic a little I refer back to where Reade says that Rafa "but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure." That is unfair on Houlllier, particularly when there are so many parallels and also considering the comparative positions they both inherited on arrival. Reade also talks on the comparative values of the squads that Houllier left and Rafa left, when you consider that football inflation has doubled since Houlliers days, £14m was the figure being paid for a top class forward then, £25-£30m now, oh yes and I am sure we could pick out (at least) 12 players from Houllier's squad that were taken with the top international squads.
I am not sure I would remember him as a legend, as I feel that is reserved for people that you never really want to see leave or retire, and I can't say that about Rafa, I can't say it about Ged either.
I can say honestly say that Istanbul did bring me the biggest high of my life as a Liverpool supporter, mainly through the circumstances of the game to be honest, he did what he thought was best for the club, and genuinely loved the club , the City and the fans, and that could be said for any of the managers we had.
Like Ged he reached a point where he was doing more harm than good and like Ged thought his way was the only way and was single minded in that respect which ultimately brought their downfall.


regards
[/quote]


It seems that even the best posters on this site are biased when it comes to the subject of Rafa mate, thats not a dig it's just how i honestly see it.

The Rafa fans will point to:

He produced some of the best results in our history, whilst having a win ratio which is favourable in comparison to most of our past great managers.
He signed some fantastic players that wouldn't look out of place in any LFC side.
The only managers to win more trophies than him are the ones who spent a shed load more on Transfers/Wages (easily £30m more per season).

The Rafa haters will simply respond:

Wasted money on shite players
He's too stubborn
Doesn't get the best out of the players
He's lost the dressing room

You can make a good argument for every point stated, i guess it just depends on if you were a fan of his or not?

Anyways he's gone so lets just look forward and hope we get in a manager who we can all respect and be proud of.

I loved Rafa and he'll always be a legend in my eyes though.



[/quote]

*claps*
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom