Legacies - Rafa vs Ged
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[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113782#msg1113782 date=1275736306]
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
I thought Rafa had only spent what he'd raised in sales last year?. Come to think of it I've seen articles actually stating that we'd made a net profit on transfers during that time.
And of course, Chelsea (and Ancelotti by implication) spent a lot more on wages. I'm mystified as to why wages are excluded from these money issues.
Whichever way you look at it Rafa was a pretty decent manager, he won trophies, his teams earnt the club money.
He couldn't win the one we want so he's been replaced let's hope the next guy can go one better but it's a tall order.
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
I thought Rafa had only spent what he'd raised in sales last year?. Come to think of it I've seen articles actually stating that we'd made a net profit on transfers during that time.
And of course, Chelsea (and Ancelotti by implication) spent a lot more on wages. I'm mystified as to why wages are excluded from these money issues.
Whichever way you look at it Rafa was a pretty decent manager, he won trophies, his teams earnt the club money.
He couldn't win the one we want so he's been replaced let's hope the next guy can go one better but it's a tall order.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113789#msg1113789 date=1275737673]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113782#msg1113782 date=1275736306]
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
I thought Rafa had only spent what he'd raised in sales last year?. Come to think of it I've seen articles actually stating that we'd made a net profit on transfers during that time.
And of course, Chelsea (and Ancelotti by implication) spent a lot more on wages. I'm mystified as to why wages are excluded from these money issues.
Whichever way you look at it Rafa was a pretty decent manager, he won trophies, his teams earnt the club money.
He couldn't win the one we want so he's been replaced let's hope the next guy can go one better but it's a tall order.
[/quote]I agree with all that. I just don't see the point in blagging or half stating facts to make his achievements seem even more remarkable.
He loved the club and at one time or other every single one of us loved him, over time some of the things he did AND some of the things that were done to him meant that some of us fell out of love with him. Ultimately he was the best he could be and tried the best he could. He just fell short of what we all hoped. Some think he was to blame in part some think he was flawless. I don't really want to labour on it because he's gone, we can just remember the good times and look forward to the change we probably needed.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113782#msg1113782 date=1275736306]
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
I thought Rafa had only spent what he'd raised in sales last year?. Come to think of it I've seen articles actually stating that we'd made a net profit on transfers during that time.
And of course, Chelsea (and Ancelotti by implication) spent a lot more on wages. I'm mystified as to why wages are excluded from these money issues.
Whichever way you look at it Rafa was a pretty decent manager, he won trophies, his teams earnt the club money.
He couldn't win the one we want so he's been replaced let's hope the next guy can go one better but it's a tall order.
[/quote]I agree with all that. I just don't see the point in blagging or half stating facts to make his achievements seem even more remarkable.
He loved the club and at one time or other every single one of us loved him, over time some of the things he did AND some of the things that were done to him meant that some of us fell out of love with him. Ultimately he was the best he could be and tried the best he could. He just fell short of what we all hoped. Some think he was to blame in part some think he was flawless. I don't really want to labour on it because he's gone, we can just remember the good times and look forward to the change we probably needed.
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
What it does say Mark is that we should be doing better than 7th with a line-up like that. This is why Rafa has been persuaded by the board to leave and get another guy in.
Let's hope we can retain those players and the new guy can lift them to better performances.
Rafa's achievements are many but I'm sure he recognised that he'd gone as far as he could.
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
What it does say Mark is that we should be doing better than 7th with a line-up like that. This is why Rafa has been persuaded by the board to leave and get another guy in.
Let's hope we can retain those players and the new guy can lift them to better performances.
Rafa's achievements are many but I'm sure he recognised that he'd gone as far as he could.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113795#msg1113795 date=1275739446]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
What it does say Mark is that we should be doing better than 7th with a line-up like that. This is why Rafa has been persuaded by the board to leave and get another guy in.
Let's hope we can retain those players and the new guy can lift them to better performances.
Rafa's achievements are many but I'm sure he recognised that he'd gone as far as he could.
[/quote]
I always thought and argued that anyway Jexy, I think we've got a really good team, well the basis of it anyway, the squad is poor though in key areas.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
What it does say Mark is that we should be doing better than 7th with a line-up like that. This is why Rafa has been persuaded by the board to leave and get another guy in.
Let's hope we can retain those players and the new guy can lift them to better performances.
Rafa's achievements are many but I'm sure he recognised that he'd gone as far as he could.
[/quote]
I always thought and argued that anyway Jexy, I think we've got a really good team, well the basis of it anyway, the squad is poor though in key areas.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113782#msg1113782 date=1275736306]
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
Rafa net spend last season £0
Carlo's net spend last season £20m
I don't need to mention the wages either, because everyone knows that that the chavs spend £40m+ more per season than us.
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
Rafa net spend last season £0
Carlo's net spend last season £20m
I don't need to mention the wages either, because everyone knows that that the chavs spend £40m+ more per season than us.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113791#msg1113791 date=1275738097]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113789#msg1113789 date=1275737673]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113782#msg1113782 date=1275736306]
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
I thought Rafa had only spent what he'd raised in sales last year?. Come to think of it I've seen articles actually stating that we'd made a net profit on transfers during that time.
And of course, Chelsea (and Ancelotti by implication) spent a lot more on wages. I'm mystified as to why wages are excluded from these money issues.
Whichever way you look at it Rafa was a pretty decent manager, he won trophies, his teams earnt the club money.
He couldn't win the one we want so he's been replaced let's hope the next guy can go one better but it's a tall order.
[/quote]
I agree with all that. I just don't see the point in blagging or half stating facts to make his achievements seem even more remarkable.
[/quote]
I'm not blagging anything, it's a fact.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113789#msg1113789 date=1275737673]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113782#msg1113782 date=1275736306]
Good point. Except Ancelotti spent less than Rafa last year and took his team from 3rd to 1st and won the FA cup.
[/quote]
I thought Rafa had only spent what he'd raised in sales last year?. Come to think of it I've seen articles actually stating that we'd made a net profit on transfers during that time.
And of course, Chelsea (and Ancelotti by implication) spent a lot more on wages. I'm mystified as to why wages are excluded from these money issues.
Whichever way you look at it Rafa was a pretty decent manager, he won trophies, his teams earnt the club money.
He couldn't win the one we want so he's been replaced let's hope the next guy can go one better but it's a tall order.
[/quote]
I agree with all that. I just don't see the point in blagging or half stating facts to make his achievements seem even more remarkable.
[/quote]
I'm not blagging anything, it's a fact.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113808#msg1113808 date=1275741717]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[/quote]
if the point is 'we should be doing better than 7th' then not one single person is arguing that. not one.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[/quote]
if the point is 'we should be doing better than 7th' then not one single person is arguing that. not one.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, I suspect Ged would have had at least that number, but as Jexy points out, and Oncey has picked up on it is rather a double edged sword, on one hand it is great that we have so many apparently talented players, that being the case we did not seem to be getting the best out of them, which is probably a more serious accusation, but thinking about it relevant.
I agree with Rafa, it's done now and we need to move forward, but it is terribly important to me that people see what my issues were, I have never had the same frustrations with any other manager, including the demonised Souness, and no I am not saying Souness was a better manager for one minute.
My frustration with Rafa is he that was so close , but so far (to and from), being a great manager. I would not even cite his transfer activity, other than he really should have brought a striker in last year, which was criminal.
It was how he handled players when he got them, his obvious and seemingly bizarre favouring of one or two players, his coldness, not learning from his mistakes which made him stubborn. If he could have been a little less focused , more human and more diplomatic he could have been a great manager with us.
And that, my friends, is the last I am saying on the matter (I hope).
Onwards and upwards................
regards
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, I suspect Ged would have had at least that number, but as Jexy points out, and Oncey has picked up on it is rather a double edged sword, on one hand it is great that we have so many apparently talented players, that being the case we did not seem to be getting the best out of them, which is probably a more serious accusation, but thinking about it relevant.
I agree with Rafa, it's done now and we need to move forward, but it is terribly important to me that people see what my issues were, I have never had the same frustrations with any other manager, including the demonised Souness, and no I am not saying Souness was a better manager for one minute.
My frustration with Rafa is he that was so close , but so far (to and from), being a great manager. I would not even cite his transfer activity, other than he really should have brought a striker in last year, which was criminal.
It was how he handled players when he got them, his obvious and seemingly bizarre favouring of one or two players, his coldness, not learning from his mistakes which made him stubborn. If he could have been a little less focused , more human and more diplomatic he could have been a great manager with us.
And that, my friends, is the last I am saying on the matter (I hope).
Onwards and upwards................
regards
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113808#msg1113808 date=1275741717]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[/quote]
Ha ha you tell yourself what you like. Which you'll do anyway I know.
And if you didn't mean what you plainly say above then you've something to learn about expressing yourself. Obfuscation won't cover it.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[/quote]
Ha ha you tell yourself what you like. Which you'll do anyway I know.
And if you didn't mean what you plainly say above then you've something to learn about expressing yourself. Obfuscation won't cover it.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113811#msg1113811 date=1275741940]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, I suspect Ged would have had at least that number, but as Jexy points out, and Oncey has picked up on it is rather a double edged sword, on one hand it is great that we have so many apparently talented players, that being the case we did not seem to be getting the best out of them, which is probably a more serious accusation, but thinking about it relevant.
I agree with Rafa, it's done now and we need to move forward, but it is terribly important to me that people see what my issues were, I have never had the same frustrations with any other manager, including the demonised Souness, and no I am not saying Souness was a better manager for one minute.
My frustration with Rafa is he that was so close , but so far (to and from), being a great manager. I would not even cite his transfer activity, other than he really should have brought a striker in last year, which was criminal.
It was how he handled players when he got them, his obvious and seemingly bizarre favouring of one or two players, his coldness, not learning from his mistakes which made him stubborn. If he could have been a little less focused , more human and more diplomatic he could have been a great manager with us.
And that, my friends, is the last I am saying on the matter (I hope).
Onwards and upwards................
regards
[/quote]
my pity is rafa didn't win the league, we were certainly playing the best football. agonizingly close, stopped by a record breaking manu (clean sheets) ifs and buts but all it would have taken was home and away against stoke.
rafa leaves with my best wishes but I am anxious about who is going to take over now (maybe even a little excited) I really hope we going in a different direction with regards to playing style.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, I suspect Ged would have had at least that number, but as Jexy points out, and Oncey has picked up on it is rather a double edged sword, on one hand it is great that we have so many apparently talented players, that being the case we did not seem to be getting the best out of them, which is probably a more serious accusation, but thinking about it relevant.
I agree with Rafa, it's done now and we need to move forward, but it is terribly important to me that people see what my issues were, I have never had the same frustrations with any other manager, including the demonised Souness, and no I am not saying Souness was a better manager for one minute.
My frustration with Rafa is he that was so close , but so far (to and from), being a great manager. I would not even cite his transfer activity, other than he really should have brought a striker in last year, which was criminal.
It was how he handled players when he got them, his obvious and seemingly bizarre favouring of one or two players, his coldness, not learning from his mistakes which made him stubborn. If he could have been a little less focused , more human and more diplomatic he could have been a great manager with us.
And that, my friends, is the last I am saying on the matter (I hope).
Onwards and upwards................
regards
[/quote]
my pity is rafa didn't win the league, we were certainly playing the best football. agonizingly close, stopped by a record breaking manu (clean sheets) ifs and buts but all it would have taken was home and away against stoke.
rafa leaves with my best wishes but I am anxious about who is going to take over now (maybe even a little excited) I really hope we going in a different direction with regards to playing style.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113813#msg1113813 date=1275742145]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113808#msg1113808 date=1275741717]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[/quote]
Ha ha you tell yourself what you like. Which you'll do anyway I know.
And if you didn't mean what you plainly say above then you've something to learn about expressing yourself. Obfuscation won't cover it.
[/quote]
I'll break it down for you.
We spend 2 million a week on player wages - try and see where that money goes. We've got a highly paid yet paper thin squad.
Why ?
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113808#msg1113808 date=1275741717]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1113711#msg1113711 date=1275729728]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113704#msg1113704 date=1275729228]
We've a high enough wage bill to win the league.
It's where that money is going that's the issue. Think about it, we spend just about 2 million a week on our players.
What have we got to show for it ?
[/quote]
During Rafa's time: more trophies than Arsenal, Spurs, City and Villa, the most valuable shirt sponsorship package, more income from European competition than all the above, one of the world's most valuable footballers as well as the achievements listed by Reade.
Where the money is going (gone) is on structural debt incurred by the owners. What our players earn you can be sure is industry standard and is not the author of the clubs overall financial situation.
[/quote]
So nothing much really.
But you've missed the point anyway.
[/quote]
Ha ha you tell yourself what you like. Which you'll do anyway I know.
And if you didn't mean what you plainly say above then you've something to learn about expressing yourself. Obfuscation won't cover it.
[/quote]
I'll break it down for you.
We spend 2 million a week on player wages - try and see where that money goes. We've got a highly paid yet paper thin squad.
Why ?
Ged put us back on the European horizon and Rafa elevated us back amongst the elite where we righfully belong. Both coaches achieved success. Ged's treble was unforgettable but is trumped by Rafa's magical night in Istanbul! It's a matter of opinion and relative from person to person. Needless to say, Ged put the foundations in place for Rafa to build on which he clearly has done. Rafa was an improvement on Ged but both men had their weaknesses which eventually cost them the hotseat!
It was good to have them but the time has come to move on. Change is inevitable and a new dawn beckon. Let's hope that its a future laden with silverware!
It was good to have them but the time has come to move on. Change is inevitable and a new dawn beckon. Let's hope that its a future laden with silverware!
We made the Final again three years ago, and this'll be the first season we've not been in the competition since Rafa was appointed. A change was needed, but let's not go overboard here.
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113811#msg1113811 date=1275741940]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, I suspect Ged would have had at least that number, but as Jexy points out, and Oncey has picked up on it is rather a double edged sword, on one hand it is great that we have so many apparently talented players, that being the case we did not seem to be getting the best out of them, which is probably a more serious accusation, but thinking about it relevant.
I agree with Rafa, it's done now and we need to move forward, but it is terribly important to me that people see what my issues were, I have never had the same frustrations with any other manager, including the demonised Souness, and no I am not saying Souness was a better manager for one minute.
My frustration with Rafa is he that was so close , but so far (to and from), being a great manager. I would not even cite his transfer activity, other than he really should have brought a striker in last year, which was criminal.
It was how he handled players when he got them, his obvious and seemingly bizarre favouring of one or two players, his coldness, not learning from his mistakes which made him stubborn. If he could have been a little less focused , more human and more diplomatic he could have been a great manager with us.
And that, my friends, is the last I am saying on the matter (I hope).
Onwards and upwards................
regards
[/quote]
Can't argue with any of that. I wasn't trying to cover up his mistakes but I have always maintained we have a good side, we're just short in certain areas and the squad is thin, which was ultimately Rafa's fault. We certainly didn't get the best of what, on paper at least, is a very good set of players.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113793#msg1113793 date=1275738456]
Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.
Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?
Fair point.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, I suspect Ged would have had at least that number, but as Jexy points out, and Oncey has picked up on it is rather a double edged sword, on one hand it is great that we have so many apparently talented players, that being the case we did not seem to be getting the best out of them, which is probably a more serious accusation, but thinking about it relevant.
I agree with Rafa, it's done now and we need to move forward, but it is terribly important to me that people see what my issues were, I have never had the same frustrations with any other manager, including the demonised Souness, and no I am not saying Souness was a better manager for one minute.
My frustration with Rafa is he that was so close , but so far (to and from), being a great manager. I would not even cite his transfer activity, other than he really should have brought a striker in last year, which was criminal.
It was how he handled players when he got them, his obvious and seemingly bizarre favouring of one or two players, his coldness, not learning from his mistakes which made him stubborn. If he could have been a little less focused , more human and more diplomatic he could have been a great manager with us.
And that, my friends, is the last I am saying on the matter (I hope).
Onwards and upwards................
regards
[/quote]
Can't argue with any of that. I wasn't trying to cover up his mistakes but I have always maintained we have a good side, we're just short in certain areas and the squad is thin, which was ultimately Rafa's fault. We certainly didn't get the best of what, on paper at least, is a very good set of players.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113834#msg1113834 date=1275744775]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[/quote]
We got there twice Rosco, after 21 years of fuck all in Europe. I know his mistakes and his short falls, but suggesting we were lucky conveniently overlooks the tremendous amount of work we and Rafa did to get to the final (twice), during which we played some tremendous football.
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[/quote]
We got there twice Rosco, after 21 years of fuck all in Europe. I know his mistakes and his short falls, but suggesting we were lucky conveniently overlooks the tremendous amount of work we and Rafa did to get to the final (twice), during which we played some tremendous football.
"Lucky" my asparagus. Leave that nonsense for the bitters.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113839#msg1113839 date=1275744901]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113834#msg1113834 date=1275744775]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[/quote]
We got there twice Rosco, after 21 years of fuck all in Europe. I know his mistakes and his short falls, but suggesting we were lucky conveniently overlooks the tremendous amount of work we and Rafa did to get to the final (twice), during which we played some tremendous football.
[/quote]
And he got the team and tactics wrong in both finals.
Luck played a huge part in 2005.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113834#msg1113834 date=1275744775]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[/quote]
We got there twice Rosco, after 21 years of fuck all in Europe. I know his mistakes and his short falls, but suggesting we were lucky conveniently overlooks the tremendous amount of work we and Rafa did to get to the final (twice), during which we played some tremendous football.
[/quote]
And he got the team and tactics wrong in both finals.
Luck played a huge part in 2005.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113842#msg1113842 date=1275745025]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113839#msg1113839 date=1275744901]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113834#msg1113834 date=1275744775]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[/quote]
We got there twice Rosco, after 21 years of fuck all in Europe. I know his mistakes and his short falls, but suggesting we were lucky conveniently overlooks the tremendous amount of work we and Rafa did to get to the final (twice), during which we played some tremendous football.
[/quote]
And he got the team and tactics wrong in both finals.
Luck played a huge part in 2005.
[/quote]
He got the tactics right in practically every game leading upto both finals. We won one and lost one, turning one around on it's head in sixcrazyminutes (how apt eh?).
So suggesting we were 'lucky' because of his poor decisions in the finals plays down the achievements of all those other games.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113839#msg1113839 date=1275744901]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113834#msg1113834 date=1275744775]
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=40459.msg1113827#msg1113827 date=1275744075]
Rosco, take your medication for the amnesia that you suffering from. Don't let one poor season cloud your judgement. You give a poor impression of a Jamie Kanwar wannabe!
[/quote]
Don't let one lucky tournament win cloud yours.
[/quote]
We got there twice Rosco, after 21 years of fuck all in Europe. I know his mistakes and his short falls, but suggesting we were lucky conveniently overlooks the tremendous amount of work we and Rafa did to get to the final (twice), during which we played some tremendous football.
[/quote]
And he got the team and tactics wrong in both finals.
Luck played a huge part in 2005.
[/quote]
He got the tactics right in practically every game leading upto both finals. We won one and lost one, turning one around on it's head in sixcrazyminutes (how apt eh?).
So suggesting we were 'lucky' because of his poor decisions in the finals plays down the achievements of all those other games.
He won it. I don't really care how.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113848#msg1113848 date=1275746566]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=40459.msg1113847#msg1113847 date=1275746010]
He won it. I don't really care how.
[/quote]
Just him ?
[/quote]
No one said that, but he was the manager in charge, you're happy to shift the majority of the blame onto him for everything else, but his achievements are only partial?
How bias? And I'm not exactly his biggest fan either.
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=40459.msg1113847#msg1113847 date=1275746010]
He won it. I don't really care how.
[/quote]
Just him ?
[/quote]
No one said that, but he was the manager in charge, you're happy to shift the majority of the blame onto him for everything else, but his achievements are only partial?
How bias? And I'm not exactly his biggest fan either.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113854#msg1113854 date=1275747046]
I can't stand the man Mark. There's no way I could be impartial when talking about him.
As far as I'm concerned actions always speak louder than words, and if people took a longer look at his actions they might not be so fond of the greedy, conniving cunt.
[/quote]
It's not really about fondness, I think we've both agreed in the past on his flaws, particularly over his reasoning for the Keane transfer and his media rants. Just credit where it's due. He did fuck up in both finals, but he also did alot of good to get us there.
Anyway........ Looking forward to a new era, it's been much needed and hopefully, despite the circus surrounding ownership and everything else, it'll breath a bit of life back into us. I want us to get back to basics, good man-management and someone who's both likeable and not too stubborn.
I can't stand the man Mark. There's no way I could be impartial when talking about him.
As far as I'm concerned actions always speak louder than words, and if people took a longer look at his actions they might not be so fond of the greedy, conniving cunt.
[/quote]
It's not really about fondness, I think we've both agreed in the past on his flaws, particularly over his reasoning for the Keane transfer and his media rants. Just credit where it's due. He did fuck up in both finals, but he also did alot of good to get us there.
Anyway........ Looking forward to a new era, it's been much needed and hopefully, despite the circus surrounding ownership and everything else, it'll breath a bit of life back into us. I want us to get back to basics, good man-management and someone who's both likeable and not too stubborn.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113854#msg1113854 date=1275747046]
I can't stand the man Mark. There's no way I could be impartial when talking about him.
As far as I'm concerned actions always speak louder than words, and if people took a longer look at his actions they might not be so fond of the greedy, conniving cunt.
[/quote]
Trying to imbue yourself with some special insight that no-one else has wised up to is another tactic I suppose. But Benitez has done good work and made some errors. Very human.
His legacy, the point of this thread isn't improved by simply alleging that he's a "greedy conniving cunt" especially when you don't know the man or anything about his motivations or his actions or otherwise.
Overall I'd say he was a decent Manager who got us competing, won plenty of games, signed some good players and worked hard. Ultimately he wasn't quite good enough and became a source of division but he's gone with only good words to say about the club at the end.
Making allegations for no apparent reason is just wrong and unnecessary. His record speaks for itself in comparison with Managers that have gone before.
Let's hope his successor can improve on the successes he had.
I can't stand the man Mark. There's no way I could be impartial when talking about him.
As far as I'm concerned actions always speak louder than words, and if people took a longer look at his actions they might not be so fond of the greedy, conniving cunt.
[/quote]
Trying to imbue yourself with some special insight that no-one else has wised up to is another tactic I suppose. But Benitez has done good work and made some errors. Very human.
His legacy, the point of this thread isn't improved by simply alleging that he's a "greedy conniving cunt" especially when you don't know the man or anything about his motivations or his actions or otherwise.
Overall I'd say he was a decent Manager who got us competing, won plenty of games, signed some good players and worked hard. Ultimately he wasn't quite good enough and became a source of division but he's gone with only good words to say about the club at the end.
Making allegations for no apparent reason is just wrong and unnecessary. His record speaks for itself in comparison with Managers that have gone before.
Let's hope his successor can improve on the successes he had.
- Status
