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Legacies - Rafa vs Ged

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[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113854#msg1113854 date=1275747046]
I can't stand the man Mark. There's no way I could be impartial when talking about him.

As far as I'm concerned actions always speak louder than words, and if people took a longer look at his actions they might not be so fond of the greedy, conniving cunt.
[/quote]Loltan Gera.
 
By Dion Fanning

Sunday June 06 2010

We are drifting on a sea of garbage accompanied only by hopeless bullshitters. It was no surprise that the departure of Rafael Benitez brought out the worst in what can loosely be described as his enemies.

Benitez' problem, and the reason his inspired reign as Liverpool's manager had to end, was that his ability to ignore the opinions of people who didn't matter had been irreversibly damaged by the battles he was forced -- and occasionally elected -- to fight.

In his mind, they were all his enemies in the end. But they were out to get him.

Sky Sports love talking to a man with nothing to say and they found an egregious bunch in the wake of Benitez' departure, speaking and thinking in clichés, led, as always, by Jamie Redknapp.

Next season promised more paranoia and more desperate justification. Much of what Benitez achieved -- the European Cup, the re-establishment of Liverpool as a force in Europe, the legacy (for a few more weeks, anyway) of world-class players -- didn't need to be justified, it was understood by those who needed to understand. At his peak, Benitez knew this. Recently, like Gerard Houllier, he had started to list his achievements and it wasn't going to end well.

A couple of weeks ago, Benitez walked onto the stage at the Liverpool Empire and danced beside the cast of a play about Istanbul. It wasn't ill-advised, it was fatally ill-advised. It may have been his low point as Liverpool manager.

It pointed to the insanity to come, but things got a lot worse for Liverpool last week when they rustled up a deal to get rid of the one man who understood the games that were being played. Benitez left listening to the same bullshit he had to put up with for six years. Now it was even more serious.

There is a fierce refusal by most commentators to deal with the complexities of life. They see the Liverpool story as another football story, they talk about the list of contenders with a straight face as they open up the market to include Guus Hiddink or bemoan the timing that now rules Jose Mourinho out.

They refuse to see what is happening. This is the slow dismantling of a football club. The one man who would put up a fight as Liverpool's prize assets were being sold is gone. The least surprising piece of official information last week was that Liverpool were in no hurry to make an appointment. They could save a couple of months' wages if they delay. More significantly, if there is no manager, there is no man to ask if he might see some of the money for the sale of the players Benitez improved while at the club.

He was, they said, fired for finishing in seventh place. Many suggested that the squad Benitez left behind is worse than the one he inherited. Two words should shoot down that argument: Salif Diao. Still debating, take another two: El-Hadji Diouf. What about a mixture of words and numbers: £14m for Djibril Cisse. Bruno Cheyrou and Anthony le Tallec were there when Benitez arrived. I haven't mentioned Djimi Traore. Benitez won the European Cup with him.

He competed too, not all the time, but above Liverpool's capabilities given their wage bill -- the fifth highest in the league -- which is linked inextricably to how a club performs. Benitez wasn't allowed to gather a squad. Craig Bellamy and Luis Garcia went so Fernando Torres could come in. He made a mess of his relationship with Xabi Alonso but still managed to triple the price for the player and the money went on servicing debt.

On Wednesday night, it was suggested that the reason for Benitez' departure was the need to placate the star players. When the star players got to hear about this, they were understandably upset that they were the device being used to justify the change.

There are enough suckers out there with short-term memories to sign up to that. By Friday, Torres, Javier Mascherano and Steven Gerrard were said to be leaving anyway. Benitez had lost the dressing-room but the dressing-room was up for sale.

This is the reality. If Torres and Mascherano stay, there is an argument for getting rid of Benitez. If they go, there isn't. Redknapp suggested Liverpool didn't trust him to spend £30m. Perhaps Tom Hicks and George Gillett just didn't trust the builders either and that's why there's no new stadium.

The fans knew this and they were pilloried for it too. It turns out that the media needs the fickleness of supporters because they don't know what to do but mock when it's not there.

There is no logical reason to appoint Roy Hodgson. He had a fine record prior to last season but Benitez had a better one. Liverpool are now judging managers on the basis of one season, good or bad. In another time, Sam Allardyce would have been the leading contender.

One report may have got to the truth about the eagerness to appoint Hodgson, a thoroughly decent man. "Hodgson, in contrast, is seen as a manager who will concentrate more on sorting out the many problems Liverpool face on the pitch rather than being involved in disrupting things behind the scenes."

Things are going so well behind the scenes that it will be a relief for Liverpool fans to know that their manager will not be disrupting them. Benitez had become caught up in the feuds. But at Liverpool, more than nearly any other club, it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that there was somebody else to blame.

Hicks and Gillett wanted to fire him before he even signed Torres, his outstanding purchase. But he stayed and fought them. He turned Gerrard into a truly effective player until last season when Gerrard turned in on himself and became a liability, not the man carrying the team as most pundits declared.

Benitez never gave him a break, he never gave anyone a break. He was Lieutenant Columbo and there was always one more thing.

He was always mad. But the good ones are all mad in their inability to see reason and another's point of view as things that have any bearing on how they do their job. "Like all madmen," Tolstoy said, "I thought everyone was mad except myself."

Benitez had good reason to think it. Working for Hicks and Gillett, he encountered, not only insanity, but greed and duplicity too. By the time he did his desperate jig at the Liverpool Empire, it was over. Liverpool are now dancing in the dark.

dfanning@independent.ie

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/liverpool-dancing-in-the-dark-without-guidance-of-benitez-2209743.html

two articles in as many days that say liverpool have the 5th highest wage bill.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113680#msg1113680 date=1275726092]
Are you really that fucking stupid ?

The Guardian article has every single club's most recent accounts detailed, nobody knows what Liverpool's wage bill was for the season just gone never mind any of the other clubs.

That's only idle speculation from Reade, just like it was the last time you mentioned it. In fact the rest of his facts and figures are wrong too.
[/quote]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1113816#msg1113816 date=1275742403]I'll break it down for you.

We spend 2 million a week on player wages - try and see where that money goes. We've got a highly paid yet paper thin squad.

Why ?
[/quote]

Break it down a little further for us Ross.
 
Is there really that much need Keni?

I would think the point is there for everybody to see.

I remember getting into a sprawling debate about the state of the squad and someone pulling out the wage bill argument when I compared us vs the Gooners, and I tried unsuccessfully at the time to find out how much individual contracts were worth so you could see exactly where the money went. Unfortunately that's a pretty tricky thing to find, and because Arsenal had the higher wage bill it was no surprise they were better. My argument was that if you look at our top players, they're on as good a contract as any (and better than Arsenal's, if rumours of wage caps are to be believed, hence why their best players kept fucking off somewhere else), so if we're paying that kind of money, it shouldn't be a problem to attract that kind of talent. I thought the problem was probably that our first team was well paid, but the squad didn't have enough depth (I know, hardly a fucking revelation, right) but in the light of seeing our wage bill in comparison to Arsenal's, if you compare the two squads then questions really do need to be asked:

Reina Almunia
Cavalieri Fabianski
Johnson Sagna
Degen Gallas
Darby Silvestre
Insua Clichy
Aurelio Traore
Agger Gibbs
Skrtel Vermaelen
Krygiakos Djourou
Carra Sol
Riera Senderos
Babel Nasri
Yossi Arshavin
Lucas Diaby
Spearing Wilshere
Mascher Ramsey
Aqualani Fabregas
Kuyt Denilson
Maxi Song
El Zhar Eboue
Gerrard Rosicky
Ngog Walcott
Torres Van Persie
Eduardo
Vela
Bendtner
Chamakh

Arsenal - who are almost universally agreed to have a very good first team, but don't have the squad to compete - look stronger as a squad than we do. Yet we have a wage bill of only £1M less per year - what's that, one player on a wage of £19K a week?

It's pretty criminal
 
What, the 'nobody knows' bit?

Well, we can only work with the most recent figures. Presumably being the Grauniad they will have used the real deal rather than just making shit up
 
Well, I don't know. I've not bothered investing the time looking up.

I just noticed Ross' post saying that there is no possible way to determine what we spend on wages and then later on in the thread claims that we spend 2M a week.

Have I missed something?
 
You've missed that Ross, an ostensibly reasonable poster, becomes a drooling mental case when it comes to Rafa.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=40459.msg1114102#msg1114102 date=1275811319]
You've missed that Ross, an ostensibly reasonable poster, becomes a drooling mental case when it comes to Rafa.


[/quote]

And Robbie Keane.

It's a little disturbing.
 
Well, there's normally a such-and-such report (can't remember what it's called) that details football finances, but it's always a season in lieu or something. Like I say, I'd imagine the Guardian wouldn't publish that kind of stuff unless they were sure of the source, so if they're saying £103M for the year, then I don't see any huge reason to doubt that, and that does work out at about £2M a year
 
What I don't get though is so many so our swuad is too thin, yet we should sell all these fringe players for 2 or 3 first teamers. Won't that makes things worse?
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=40459.msg1114153#msg1114153 date=1275817117]
What I don't get though is so many so our swuad is too thin, yet we should sell all these fringe players for 2 or 3 first teamers. Won't that makes things worse?
[/quote]

that would improve the first team and I guess people are willing to take a gamble on the first team staying injury free. its worth noting we now have one of the best injury specialists on the books.
 
Saint has a point though. It's a mighty tricky balance to strike, and one which Rafa had to cope with all along. The problem was he made the situation worse with his own bloopers in the market.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40459.msg1114161#msg1114161 date=1275817768]
Saint has a point though. It's a mighty tricky balance to strike, and one which Rafa had to cope with all along. The problem was he made the situation worse with his own bloopers in the market.
[/quote]

In the last two seasons, he pretty much ruined things for himself. The squad did actually have two players for every position (strikers aside), but too many were either injury prone or out of contention due to being shit or attitude issues.

If you take 4 or 5 players out of the equation before you have to deal with injuries that come along in every season anyways, you're always going to struggle.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1114183#msg1114183 date=1275819546]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40459.msg1114161#msg1114161 date=1275817768]
Saint has a point though. It's a mighty tricky balance to strike, and one which Rafa had to cope with all along. The problem was he made the situation worse with his own bloopers in the market.
[/quote]

In the last two seasons, he pretty much ruined things for himself. The squad did actually have two players for every position (strikers aside), but too many were either injury prone or out of contention due to being shit or attitude issues.

If you take 4 or 5 players out of the equation before you have to deal with injuries that come along in every season anyways, you're always going to struggle.
[/quote]

the pity is a lot was forced on him, you know rafa would have perferred to hold onto crouch, alonso and arbeloa, the irony is crouch and bob left because they felt they would get much playing time and as we saw this season they would have seen LOADS of playing time.
 
The Crouch situation could've been handled a bit better, but I wasn't particularly sad to see him go. Arbeloa didn't leave because of playing time, he was always going to go home to Madrid. As for the Alonso sale being forced on him, you really want to start that one up again?
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1114193#msg1114193 date=1275819992]
The Crouch situation could've been handled a bit better, but I wasn't particularly sad to see him go. Arbeloa didn't leave because of playing time, he was always going to go home to Madrid. As for the Alonso sale being forced on him, you really want to start that one up again?
[/quote]

nope 😉
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1114068#msg1114068 date=1275804543]
By Dion Fanning

Sunday June 06 2010

We are drifting on a sea of garbage accompanied only by hopeless bullshitters. It was no surprise that the departure of Rafael Benitez brought out the worst in what can loosely be described as his enemies.

Benitez' problem, and the reason his inspired reign as Liverpool's manager had to end, was that his ability to ignore the opinions of people who didn't matter had been irreversibly damaged by the battles he was forced -- and occasionally elected -- to fight.

In his mind, they were all his enemies in the end. But they were out to get him.

Sky Sports love talking to a man with nothing to say and they found an egregious bunch in the wake of Benitez' departure, speaking and thinking in clichés, led, as always, by Jamie Redknapp.

Next season promised more paranoia and more desperate justification. Much of what Benitez achieved -- the European Cup, the re-establishment of Liverpool as a force in Europe, the legacy (for a few more weeks, anyway) of world-class players -- didn't need to be justified, it was understood by those who needed to understand. At his peak, Benitez knew this. Recently, like Gerard Houllier, he had started to list his achievements and it wasn't going to end well.

A couple of weeks ago, Benitez walked onto the stage at the Liverpool Empire and danced beside the cast of a play about Istanbul. It wasn't ill-advised, it was fatally ill-advised. It may have been his low point as Liverpool manager.

It pointed to the insanity to come, but things got a lot worse for Liverpool last week when they rustled up a deal to get rid of the one man who understood the games that were being played. Benitez left listening to the same bullshit he had to put up with for six years. Now it was even more serious.

There is a fierce refusal by most commentators to deal with the complexities of life. They see the Liverpool story as another football story, they talk about the list of contenders with a straight face as they open up the market to include Guus Hiddink or bemoan the timing that now rules Jose Mourinho out.

They refuse to see what is happening. This is the slow dismantling of a football club. The one man who would put up a fight as Liverpool's prize assets were being sold is gone. The least surprising piece of official information last week was that Liverpool were in no hurry to make an appointment. They could save a couple of months' wages if they delay. More significantly, if there is no manager, there is no man to ask if he might see some of the money for the sale of the players Benitez improved while at the club.

He was, they said, fired for finishing in seventh place. Many suggested that the squad Benitez left behind is worse than the one he inherited. Two words should shoot down that argument: Salif Diao. Still debating, take another two: El-Hadji Diouf. What about a mixture of words and numbers: £14m for Djibril Cisse. Bruno Cheyrou and Anthony le Tallec were there when Benitez arrived. I haven't mentioned Djimi Traore. Benitez won the European Cup with him.

He competed too, not all the time, but above Liverpool's capabilities given their wage bill -- the fifth highest in the league -- which is linked inextricably to how a club performs. Benitez wasn't allowed to gather a squad. Craig Bellamy and Luis Garcia went so Fernando Torres could come in. He made a mess of his relationship with Xabi Alonso but still managed to triple the price for the player and the money went on servicing debt.

On Wednesday night, it was suggested that the reason for Benitez' departure was the need to placate the star players. When the star players got to hear about this, they were understandably upset that they were the device being used to justify the change.

There are enough suckers out there with short-term memories to sign up to that. By Friday, Torres, Javier Mascherano and Steven Gerrard were said to be leaving anyway. Benitez had lost the dressing-room but the dressing-room was up for sale.

This is the reality. If Torres and Mascherano stay, there is an argument for getting rid of Benitez. If they go, there isn't. Redknapp suggested Liverpool didn't trust him to spend £30m. Perhaps Tom Hicks and George Gillett just didn't trust the builders either and that's why there's no new stadium.

The fans knew this and they were pilloried for it too. It turns out that the media needs the fickleness of supporters because they don't know what to do but mock when it's not there.

There is no logical reason to appoint Roy Hodgson. He had a fine record prior to last season but Benitez had a better one. Liverpool are now judging managers on the basis of one season, good or bad. In another time, Sam Allardyce would have been the leading contender.

One report may have got to the truth about the eagerness to appoint Hodgson, a thoroughly decent man. "Hodgson, in contrast, is seen as a manager who will concentrate more on sorting out the many problems Liverpool face on the pitch rather than being involved in disrupting things behind the scenes."

Things are going so well behind the scenes that it will be a relief for Liverpool fans to know that their manager will not be disrupting them. Benitez had become caught up in the feuds. But at Liverpool, more than nearly any other club, it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that there was somebody else to blame.

Hicks and Gillett wanted to fire him before he even signed Torres, his outstanding purchase. But he stayed and fought them. He turned Gerrard into a truly effective player until last season when Gerrard turned in on himself and became a liability, not the man carrying the team as most pundits declared.

Benitez never gave him a break, he never gave anyone a break. He was Lieutenant Columbo and there was always one more thing.

He was always mad. But the good ones are all mad in their inability to see reason and another's point of view as things that have any bearing on how they do their job. "Like all madmen," Tolstoy said, "I thought everyone was mad except myself."

Benitez had good reason to think it. Working for Hicks and Gillett, he encountered, not only insanity, but greed and duplicity too. By the time he did his desperate jig at the Liverpool Empire, it was over. Liverpool are now dancing in the dark.

dfanning@independent.ie

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/liverpool-dancing-in-the-dark-without-guidance-of-benitez-2209743.html

two articles in as many days that say liverpool have the 5th highest wage bill.
[/quote]

Which is indicative of the quality of the journalism. That information is not available and won't be until next year.

Have a guess what relation Dion Fanning is to his editor ?
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1114093#msg1114093 date=1275810683]
Well, I don't know. I've not bothered investing the time looking up.

I just noticed Ross' post saying that there is no possible way to determine what we spend on wages and then later on in the thread claims that we spend 2M a week.

Have I missed something?
[/quote]

Yes.

2008/2009 figures are available from the company accounts.

2009/2010 figures aren't.

And given the contract extensions and transfer dealings I don't think our wage bill dropped in between those seasons.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I'm having trouble following what Editors and their relationship to Journos (whatever that means?), company accounts and 'dropping in wage bills' etc etc has to do with Rafa's legacy?

On the plus side he was a decent Manager who won things, signed some good players, got us competing again, and worked hard. He also leaves us with an impressive list of players for the new Manager to work with.

On the debit side he ultimately couldn't get a team to win the League, made some poor signings, frustrated fans and players alike with some questionable tactics and substitutions and occasionally let his frustrations out in Press conferences with ill-advised comments.

All said and done I'd still say he was the best Manager we've had since Kenny Dalglish.

Arguing around semantics seems to be a bit pointless at this stage. The fellas left.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1114244#msg1114244 date=1275822812]
I don't know about anyone else but I'm having trouble following what Editors and their relationship to Journos (whatever that means?), company accounts and 'dropping in wage bills' etc etc has to do with Rafa's legacy?

On the plus side he was a decent Manager who won things, signed some good players, got us competing again, and worked hard. He also leaves us with an impressive list of players for the new Manager to work with.

On the debit side he ultimately couldn't get a team to win the League, made some poor signings, frustrated fans and players alike with some questionable tactics and substitutions and occasionally let his frustrations out in Press conferences with ill-advised comments.

All said and done I'd still say he was the best Manager we've had since Kenny Dalglish.

Arguing around semantics seems to be a bit pointless at this stage. The fellas left.
[/quote]

Houllier took us from being an eight place team to a CL regular, Rafa took us from a CL regular to a seventh place team.

Deal with that whatever way suits you.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113148#msg1113148 date=1275651840]
Single , thank you for showing our new friend how discussion works...
[/quote]

It's a bit rich saying that after you called him "a cheeky little cunt" and labelled his opinions "retarded" though.

I can't believe you got away with that quite honestly. .
 
Haven't gone through the thread properly, but it needs pointing out that comparing squads player for player is pretty pointless and really doesn't highlight anything.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1114693#msg1114693 date=1275872556]
Haven't gone through the thread properly, but it needs pointing out that comparing squads player for player is pretty pointless and really doesn't highlight anything.
[/quote]

Is absolutely correct.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1114688#msg1114688 date=1275870628]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113148#msg1113148 date=1275651840]
Single , thank you for showing our new friend how discussion works...
[/quote]

It's a bit rich saying that after you called him "a cheeky little cunt" and labelled his opinions "retarded" though.

I can't believe you got away with that quite honestly. .
[/quote]

Maybe because in all of the years that Vlad has been posting on here, thats one of the only times he's ever resorted to that type of post?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1114687#msg1114687 date=1275870377]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1114244#msg1114244 date=1275822812]
I don't know about anyone else but I'm having trouble following what Editors and their relationship to Journos (whatever that means?), company accounts and 'dropping in wage bills' etc etc has to do with Rafa's legacy?

On the plus side he was a decent Manager who won things, signed some good players, got us competing again, and worked hard. He also leaves us with an impressive list of players for the new Manager to work with.

On the debit side he ultimately couldn't get a team to win the League, made some poor signings, frustrated fans and players alike with some questionable tactics and substitutions and occasionally let his frustrations out in Press conferences with ill-advised comments.

All said and done I'd still say he was the best Manager we've had since Kenny Dalglish.

Arguing around semantics seems to be a bit pointless at this stage. The fellas left.
[/quote]

Houllier took us from being an eight place team to a CL regular, Rafa took us from a CL regular to a seventh place team.

Deal with that whatever way suits you.
[/quote]
I'll just go along with my glass half full and carefully balanced, for all the reasons I stated above.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1114687#msg1114687 date=1275870377]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1114244#msg1114244 date=1275822812]
I don't know about anyone else but I'm having trouble following what Editors and their relationship to Journos (whatever that means?), company accounts and 'dropping in wage bills' etc etc has to do with Rafa's legacy?

On the plus side he was a decent Manager who won things, signed some good players, got us competing again, and worked hard. He also leaves us with an impressive list of players for the new Manager to work with.

On the debit side he ultimately couldn't get a team to win the League, made some poor signings, frustrated fans and players alike with some questionable tactics and substitutions and occasionally let his frustrations out in Press conferences with ill-advised comments.

All said and done I'd still say he was the best Manager we've had since Kenny Dalglish.

Arguing around semantics seems to be a bit pointless at this stage. The fellas left.
[/quote]

Houllier took us from being an eight place team to a CL regular, Rafa took us from a CL regular to a seventh place team.

Deal with that whatever way suits you.
[/quote]

Our league position was 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd until Houllier joined as joint manager and we came 7th. We would have been in the CL 4 seasons running back then if the EPL allocation for CL places been the same as it is now.
Incidentally, Houllier's final season with LFC brought us 60 points in the league. We came 4th.
Benitez's final season with LFC brought us 63 points. Which only got us 7th place but I'm sure you get the drift.

'Deal with that whatever way suits you.'
 
[quote author=juniormember link=topic=40459.msg1114787#msg1114787 date=1275898357]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1114687#msg1114687 date=1275870377]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1114244#msg1114244 date=1275822812]
I don't know about anyone else but I'm having trouble following what Editors and their relationship to Journos (whatever that means?), company accounts and 'dropping in wage bills' etc etc has to do with Rafa's legacy?

On the plus side he was a decent Manager who won things, signed some good players, got us competing again, and worked hard. He also leaves us with an impressive list of players for the new Manager to work with.

On the debit side he ultimately couldn't get a team to win the League, made some poor signings, frustrated fans and players alike with some questionable tactics and substitutions and occasionally let his frustrations out in Press conferences with ill-advised comments.

All said and done I'd still say he was the best Manager we've had since Kenny Dalglish.

Arguing around semantics seems to be a bit pointless at this stage. The fellas left.
[/quote]

Houllier took us from being an eight place team to a CL regular, Rafa took us from a CL regular to a seventh place team.

Deal with that whatever way suits you.
[/quote]

Our league position was 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd until Houllier joined as joint manager and we came 7th. We would have been in the CL 4 seasons running back then if the EPL allocation for CL places been the same as it is now.
Incidentally, Houllier's final season with LFC brought us 60 points in the league. We came 4th.
Benitez's final season with LFC brought us 63 points. Which only got us 7th place but I'm sure you get the drift.

'Deal with that whatever way suits you.'
[/quote]

are you bigging up rafa or gh?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1114789#msg1114789 date=1275898524]
[quote author=juniormember link=topic=40459.msg1114787#msg1114787 date=1275898357]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1114687#msg1114687 date=1275870377]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=40459.msg1114244#msg1114244 date=1275822812]
I don't know about anyone else but I'm having trouble following what Editors and their relationship to Journos (whatever that means?), company accounts and 'dropping in wage bills' etc etc has to do with Rafa's legacy?

On the plus side he was a decent Manager who won things, signed some good players, got us competing again, and worked hard. He also leaves us with an impressive list of players for the new Manager to work with.

On the debit side he ultimately couldn't get a team to win the League, made some poor signings, frustrated fans and players alike with some questionable tactics and substitutions and occasionally let his frustrations out in Press conferences with ill-advised comments.

All said and done I'd still say he was the best Manager we've had since Kenny Dalglish.

Arguing around semantics seems to be a bit pointless at this stage. The fellas left.
[/quote]

Houllier took us from being an eight place team to a CL regular, Rafa took us from a CL regular to a seventh place team.

Deal with that whatever way suits you.
[/quote]

Our league position was 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd until Houllier joined as joint manager and we came 7th. We would have been in the CL 4 seasons running back then if the EPL allocation for CL places been the same as it is now.
Incidentally, Houllier's final season with LFC brought us 60 points in the league. We came 4th.
Benitez's final season with LFC brought us 63 points. Which only got us 7th place but I'm sure you get the drift.

'Deal with that whatever way suits you.'
[/quote]

are you bigging up rafa or gh?
[/quote]

What could possibly make you think I'm bigging up Houllier? I think quoting 'Deal with that whatever way suits you.' might have been a mistake....
 
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