Legacies - Rafa vs Ged
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As were Shanks and Fagan then
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=40459.msg1112809#msg1112809 date=1275599362]
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=40459.msg1112537#msg1112537 date=1275578313]
I was not a rafa fan, but rafa made our squad stronger. My vote is for rafa, although in saying that.. Ged did have much less money to spend
[/quote]
In real terms Ged spent far more according to the 'Transfer Price Index' which is quoted as between 95% and 99% accurate.
In actual terms, Houllier spent £130.9m on players. In today’s money, adjusted using TPI (i.e football inflation) that equates to £245m. But of course, it’s important to see how much was recouped; more on that in a moment.
In actual terms, BenÃtez has spent £223m. In today’s money (transfer prices have of course risen since he started buying players in 2004), adjusted using TPI (football inflation) that equates to £278m.
Houllier sold players for an actual amount of £60.3m. Using TPI inflation, that translates to £99.4m.
BenÃtez has sold players for a total of £159.3m. Using TPI inflation, that translates to £215.1m.
Therefore, Rafa BenÃtez net spend, when adjusted to inflation, equals £63,550,192, compared with Gérard Houllier’s far greater total of £146,061,083.
On average, using TPI to create an even playing field, BenÃtez has spent £10.5m net per season, while Houllier spent £24.4m; roughly two-and-a-half times as much. Houllier clearly had more supportive backers than BenÃtez.
Of course, these figures include money raised by selling players they inherited.
Both men lost around £12m (actual) on local stars who went to Real Madrid (McManaman in 1999, Owen in 2004) for less than their market worth due to contract issues, within one year of the new boss taking over. So that was an early blow to both managers.
However, only 29.5% of Houllier’s income was from selling his own players (such as Heskey, Barmby and Ziege); the rest came from selling his predecessor’s signings, or home-grown talents like Fowler, Thompson and Matteo.
By contrast, BenÃtez has raised £128.8m TPI (£109.9m actual) from selling his own players: 59.8% of the money he has raised through sales has been from offloading his own purchases – twice as much as with Houllier.
Now, of course, in some cases (such as Robbie Keane and Andrea Dossena), BenÃtez was selling his own mistakes for a loss. I don’t think there is a manager alive who hasn’t done this (Houllier did so with Ziege, for example), and the key is to get as much as possible, as quickly as possible.
However, a lot of money was raised from selling the likes of Alonso, Sissoko, Bellamy, Crouch, Carson, et al, for a profit; in some cases, after a few years of sterling service.
What’s interesting is that every single player Houllier signed has now left Liverpool FC. They did so for an actual combined price of just £52.6m, or £86.9m when adjusted with TPI.
BenÃtez has already raised far more than this from his sales, and that’s before (perish the thought) any potential sale of Torres, Reina, Agger, Johnson, Benayoun, Kuyt and Mascherano, who between them, at current value, could raise another £150m.
In fairness to Houllier, players like Hyypia and Hamann left the club on free transfers having served the Reds with distinction, to the point in time when they were too old to sell. None of us would complain if Torres left on a free, aged 33, after seven more years of goals.
Even so, the figures seem to support the view that BenÃtez has outperformed his predecessor.
Conclusion
In conclusion, BenÃtez has had to sell his own players to raise much of his own transfer funds. He has also raised more money through European progression, and yet despite this, the current squad costs only £143m, between £50m-£100m behind those of Spurs, City, Chelsea and United.
BenÃtez’s win percentage in the league is 55%, to Houllier’s 49%. But Houllier only had one year of Chelsea’s wealth to contend with; and the Stamford Bridge outfit spent another £100m the summer BenÃtez arrived.
Houllier had a great United side (1999) and Arsenal’s Invincibles to battle, but BenÃtez has had to face what Alex Ferguson believes to be a better United team, plus the might of Chelsea (and now City). And of course, when BenÃtez arrived, that Arsenal side were reigning champions.
BenÃtez has averaged 72.2 points per season, Houllier managed 65.7 (just 2.7 more points on average than in the ‘disastrous’ season we’ve just witnessed). Houllier qualified for the Champions League three times (once would be for the season after he left), BenÃtez five. BenÃtez’s best tally in a season was 86, Houllier’s was 80.
Houllier won four trophies, BenÃtez two. BenÃtez won one of the two that really matter, and made another Champions League final.
Houllier did a good job – especially up to 2002 – and BenÃtez has done a better job.
However, Rafa cannot regularly work miracles, and the more financially adrift the Reds find themselves, the harder it will be to simply tread water, let alone forge ahead.
Source: http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/05/houllier-vs-benitez-spend-analysis/
[/quote]
If you go into those details whether or not its right then Ged spent more money, but if you look at it in real terms without this inflated shit, benitez got the luxury of spending more money on players.
20mil for torres
20mil for keane
18 for aqua
18 for mascher
17 for johnson ect
where as ged spend 14.5 his biggest transfer on cisse only to get sacked and never use him. Thats what i meant by rafa spent more on players
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=40459.msg1112537#msg1112537 date=1275578313]
I was not a rafa fan, but rafa made our squad stronger. My vote is for rafa, although in saying that.. Ged did have much less money to spend
[/quote]
In real terms Ged spent far more according to the 'Transfer Price Index' which is quoted as between 95% and 99% accurate.
In actual terms, Houllier spent £130.9m on players. In today’s money, adjusted using TPI (i.e football inflation) that equates to £245m. But of course, it’s important to see how much was recouped; more on that in a moment.
In actual terms, BenÃtez has spent £223m. In today’s money (transfer prices have of course risen since he started buying players in 2004), adjusted using TPI (football inflation) that equates to £278m.
Houllier sold players for an actual amount of £60.3m. Using TPI inflation, that translates to £99.4m.
BenÃtez has sold players for a total of £159.3m. Using TPI inflation, that translates to £215.1m.
Therefore, Rafa BenÃtez net spend, when adjusted to inflation, equals £63,550,192, compared with Gérard Houllier’s far greater total of £146,061,083.
On average, using TPI to create an even playing field, BenÃtez has spent £10.5m net per season, while Houllier spent £24.4m; roughly two-and-a-half times as much. Houllier clearly had more supportive backers than BenÃtez.
Of course, these figures include money raised by selling players they inherited.
Both men lost around £12m (actual) on local stars who went to Real Madrid (McManaman in 1999, Owen in 2004) for less than their market worth due to contract issues, within one year of the new boss taking over. So that was an early blow to both managers.
However, only 29.5% of Houllier’s income was from selling his own players (such as Heskey, Barmby and Ziege); the rest came from selling his predecessor’s signings, or home-grown talents like Fowler, Thompson and Matteo.
By contrast, BenÃtez has raised £128.8m TPI (£109.9m actual) from selling his own players: 59.8% of the money he has raised through sales has been from offloading his own purchases – twice as much as with Houllier.
Now, of course, in some cases (such as Robbie Keane and Andrea Dossena), BenÃtez was selling his own mistakes for a loss. I don’t think there is a manager alive who hasn’t done this (Houllier did so with Ziege, for example), and the key is to get as much as possible, as quickly as possible.
However, a lot of money was raised from selling the likes of Alonso, Sissoko, Bellamy, Crouch, Carson, et al, for a profit; in some cases, after a few years of sterling service.
What’s interesting is that every single player Houllier signed has now left Liverpool FC. They did so for an actual combined price of just £52.6m, or £86.9m when adjusted with TPI.
BenÃtez has already raised far more than this from his sales, and that’s before (perish the thought) any potential sale of Torres, Reina, Agger, Johnson, Benayoun, Kuyt and Mascherano, who between them, at current value, could raise another £150m.
In fairness to Houllier, players like Hyypia and Hamann left the club on free transfers having served the Reds with distinction, to the point in time when they were too old to sell. None of us would complain if Torres left on a free, aged 33, after seven more years of goals.
Even so, the figures seem to support the view that BenÃtez has outperformed his predecessor.
Conclusion
In conclusion, BenÃtez has had to sell his own players to raise much of his own transfer funds. He has also raised more money through European progression, and yet despite this, the current squad costs only £143m, between £50m-£100m behind those of Spurs, City, Chelsea and United.
BenÃtez’s win percentage in the league is 55%, to Houllier’s 49%. But Houllier only had one year of Chelsea’s wealth to contend with; and the Stamford Bridge outfit spent another £100m the summer BenÃtez arrived.
Houllier had a great United side (1999) and Arsenal’s Invincibles to battle, but BenÃtez has had to face what Alex Ferguson believes to be a better United team, plus the might of Chelsea (and now City). And of course, when BenÃtez arrived, that Arsenal side were reigning champions.
BenÃtez has averaged 72.2 points per season, Houllier managed 65.7 (just 2.7 more points on average than in the ‘disastrous’ season we’ve just witnessed). Houllier qualified for the Champions League three times (once would be for the season after he left), BenÃtez five. BenÃtez’s best tally in a season was 86, Houllier’s was 80.
Houllier won four trophies, BenÃtez two. BenÃtez won one of the two that really matter, and made another Champions League final.
Houllier did a good job – especially up to 2002 – and BenÃtez has done a better job.
However, Rafa cannot regularly work miracles, and the more financially adrift the Reds find themselves, the harder it will be to simply tread water, let alone forge ahead.
Source: http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/05/houllier-vs-benitez-spend-analysis/
[/quote]
If you go into those details whether or not its right then Ged spent more money, but if you look at it in real terms without this inflated shit, benitez got the luxury of spending more money on players.
20mil for torres
20mil for keane
18 for aqua
18 for mascher
17 for johnson ect
where as ged spend 14.5 his biggest transfer on cisse only to get sacked and never use him. Thats what i meant by rafa spent more on players
How fucking rudimentary can you get.
Benitez also got to spend more than Shankly too. The horror!
Prices, transfers, available funds, and player values rise every single year. so making a comparison between what Houllier had to spend on a player in 2002 and what Benitez had in 2009 is futile and ignorant.
Which is quite apt here really.
Benitez also got to spend more than Shankly too. The horror!
Prices, transfers, available funds, and player values rise every single year. so making a comparison between what Houllier had to spend on a player in 2002 and what Benitez had in 2009 is futile and ignorant.
Which is quite apt here really.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112999#msg1112999 date=1275637053]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1112867#msg1112867 date=1275607825]
Wow Oncey, you just take it too far.
[/quote]I was clearly joking Ken.
I love Houllier and that Rafa has a higher average is testament to what he's acheived here.
[/quote]
I lost all faith in Houllier when he defended Robbie for snorting the lines against Everton. He made up some bollocks about the lads pretending to be cows and doing it all the time in training. Yeah right.
And to all those who say that Rafa got lucky with his trophies. What about the much vaunted Houllier cup treble.
League cup, we struggled to beat Championship side Birmingham and went to extra time & Pens.
FA Cup, Arsenal were all over us but 2 genius moments from Owen rescues us.
UEFA cup, we played Alaves, who were not exactly a huge Spanish team and still got taken to extra time.
I'd love to see the Rafa bashers explain those mighty victories if Benitez had been in charge.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1112867#msg1112867 date=1275607825]
Wow Oncey, you just take it too far.
[/quote]I was clearly joking Ken.
I love Houllier and that Rafa has a higher average is testament to what he's acheived here.
[/quote]
I lost all faith in Houllier when he defended Robbie for snorting the lines against Everton. He made up some bollocks about the lads pretending to be cows and doing it all the time in training. Yeah right.
And to all those who say that Rafa got lucky with his trophies. What about the much vaunted Houllier cup treble.
League cup, we struggled to beat Championship side Birmingham and went to extra time & Pens.
FA Cup, Arsenal were all over us but 2 genius moments from Owen rescues us.
UEFA cup, we played Alaves, who were not exactly a huge Spanish team and still got taken to extra time.
I'd love to see the Rafa bashers explain those mighty victories if Benitez had been in charge.
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
It's unbelievable how time flies Ged arrived in Liverpool in 1998, that would make most of you just about starting big school 😉
I was already nearly 20 when Paisley took over, I am starting to feel old >🙁
regards
I was already nearly 20 when Paisley took over, I am starting to feel old >🙁
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113070#msg1113070 date=1275644802]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[/quote]
Listen here you cheeky little cunt , it seems I made a mistake, but the only mistake I made was replying to your retarded initial post, with some logic and sound opinion, to give it some credibility.
Funnily enough , coincidentally, Alan Hansen has just said the same as me about the comparative squads, and that has been posted in another thread, here to save your brain going warm looking for it, and oozing out of your ears I will paste it for you.
Sad as it may seem, I have looked at your previous posts and I have to say you are a very poor addition to the site, it might make you seem a little less thick if you had your shift key fixed.
I forgot it was half term this week shouldn't you be revising?
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[/quote]
Listen here you cheeky little cunt , it seems I made a mistake, but the only mistake I made was replying to your retarded initial post, with some logic and sound opinion, to give it some credibility.
Funnily enough , coincidentally, Alan Hansen has just said the same as me about the comparative squads, and that has been posted in another thread, here to save your brain going warm looking for it, and oozing out of your ears I will paste it for you.
I suppose he is a Houllier apologist too.
Sad as it may seem, I have looked at your previous posts and I have to say you are a very poor addition to the site, it might make you seem a little less thick if you had your shift key fixed.
I forgot it was half term this week shouldn't you be revising?
regards
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113128#msg1113128 date=1275650555]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113070#msg1113070 date=1275644802]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[/quote]
Listen here you cheeky little cunt , it seems I made a mistake, but the only mistake I made was replying to your retarded initial post, with some logic and sound opinion, to give it some credibility.
Funnily enough , coincidentally, Alan Hansen has just said the same as me about the comparative squads, and that has been posted in another thread, here to save your brain going warm looking for it, and oozing out of your ears I will paste it for you.
Sad as it may seem, I have looked at your previous posts and I have to say you are a very poor addition to the site, it might make you seem a little less thick if you had your shift key fixed.
I forgot it was half term this week shouldn't you be revising?
regards
[/quote]
all insults, zero substance
I guess I know who failed an agrument
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113070#msg1113070 date=1275644802]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[/quote]
Listen here you cheeky little cunt , it seems I made a mistake, but the only mistake I made was replying to your retarded initial post, with some logic and sound opinion, to give it some credibility.
Funnily enough , coincidentally, Alan Hansen has just said the same as me about the comparative squads, and that has been posted in another thread, here to save your brain going warm looking for it, and oozing out of your ears I will paste it for you.
I suppose he is a Houllier apologist too.
Sad as it may seem, I have looked at your previous posts and I have to say you are a very poor addition to the site, it might make you seem a little less thick if you had your shift key fixed.
I forgot it was half term this week shouldn't you be revising?
regards
[/quote]
all insults, zero substance
I guess I know who failed an agrument
Ged 'apologists'?
What is there to apologise for? He bought some great players, left a reasonable(ish) squad but ultimately wasn't quite up to winning the league.
Much like Rafa really.
Didi as a player was not blessed with the athleticism of Mascher, but more than made up for it in wiliness - he had a very cool head, knew the right decisions to make, popped up with the odd (spectacular) goal every now and then and kept the team ticking over.
Mascher, for all his talent, is (in footballing terms) a bit thick at times. He needlessly gets involved in shit he doesn't need to, and whilst it's nice to see the lad show some passion, when it results in a red card it's another head-in-the-hands moment. I think Mascher is sort of more of an individual on the pitch - he's like a dog with a bone, his job is to get the ball off the other guy and that's what he's gonna do - and he's excellent at it. I think Didi kind of saw the bigger picture if you know what I mean, when things needed calming down he'd calm it, that sort of thing, he's more of a team player. Dunno if that makes any sense written out, but it does inside my head.
Vlad vs Yossi, Vlad (our one) actually called it a draw, so it's not Smicer over Yossi, it's evens. That said, I'd put Yossi over Vlad (though in my more sentimental moments, if I saw him kiss the badge after that second goal again, I might pick Vlad).
Sami over Agger. Absolutely. Sami is a true legend, one of the best defenders of the last ten years and a stalwart of a defensive backbone that was renowned for being particularly miserly. Agger, whilst showing some nice skills on the ball coming out and having some great goals to his name (although Sami does too) is nowhere near the defender that Sami was - even when he's 100% fit, which he hardly ever is. As much as I like Danny, he's not fit to lace Sami's boots.
Heskey over Kuyt. Difficult one to call in some respects. Both can be as frustrating as each other, but for different reasons. Heskey is undoubtedly the more talented and blessed of the two - as is evidenced by the fact that on his day he could be completely unplayable - he had pace, strength, an eye for goal, good touch - everything. When he had his confidence high he delivered, such as that season when he was banging them in left right and centre (2000/01?) - he was awesome.
However, when he was bad, he was really really bad. How such a big fucker could get knocked off the ball so easily was mystifying, and the slump of the shoulders in the first 5 minutes told you everything you needed to know about what kind of day he was gonna have. The epitome of a confidence player.
Dirk on the other hand has never suffered from a lack of mental fortitude - he'd run through brick walls all day for us. Where his inconsistency lies is in his ability. Some days he can display a reasonable touch, a nice cross and a thunderous shot - and coupled with his work ethic it makes him - if not quite 'unplayable' - then certainly a damn nuisance. That's the good bits. The bad is when he has his 3 month slump, every second touch is a tackle, poor decision making, poor passing, poor shooting, just poor everything really. This alongside the fact that he's not blessed with any spectacular physical attributes other than stamina - he's not quick, he's not skilful, he's not great in the air, he's not great at holding the ball up . . . he's just Dirk - an honest grafter.
So who's better? Hard to call really, I think both have a goal-to-games ratio of about just under 1 in 4, though it must be said in Dirk's favour he's been shunted out to right wing for much of that. Emile is the more talented, but Dirk is mentally stronger. Between them, I'd probably plump for Dirk, but it's closer than your "fucking Heskey over Kuyt" suggests
What is there to apologise for? He bought some great players, left a reasonable(ish) squad but ultimately wasn't quite up to winning the league.
Much like Rafa really.
Didi as a player was not blessed with the athleticism of Mascher, but more than made up for it in wiliness - he had a very cool head, knew the right decisions to make, popped up with the odd (spectacular) goal every now and then and kept the team ticking over.
Mascher, for all his talent, is (in footballing terms) a bit thick at times. He needlessly gets involved in shit he doesn't need to, and whilst it's nice to see the lad show some passion, when it results in a red card it's another head-in-the-hands moment. I think Mascher is sort of more of an individual on the pitch - he's like a dog with a bone, his job is to get the ball off the other guy and that's what he's gonna do - and he's excellent at it. I think Didi kind of saw the bigger picture if you know what I mean, when things needed calming down he'd calm it, that sort of thing, he's more of a team player. Dunno if that makes any sense written out, but it does inside my head.
Vlad vs Yossi, Vlad (our one) actually called it a draw, so it's not Smicer over Yossi, it's evens. That said, I'd put Yossi over Vlad (though in my more sentimental moments, if I saw him kiss the badge after that second goal again, I might pick Vlad).
Sami over Agger. Absolutely. Sami is a true legend, one of the best defenders of the last ten years and a stalwart of a defensive backbone that was renowned for being particularly miserly. Agger, whilst showing some nice skills on the ball coming out and having some great goals to his name (although Sami does too) is nowhere near the defender that Sami was - even when he's 100% fit, which he hardly ever is. As much as I like Danny, he's not fit to lace Sami's boots.
Heskey over Kuyt. Difficult one to call in some respects. Both can be as frustrating as each other, but for different reasons. Heskey is undoubtedly the more talented and blessed of the two - as is evidenced by the fact that on his day he could be completely unplayable - he had pace, strength, an eye for goal, good touch - everything. When he had his confidence high he delivered, such as that season when he was banging them in left right and centre (2000/01?) - he was awesome.
However, when he was bad, he was really really bad. How such a big fucker could get knocked off the ball so easily was mystifying, and the slump of the shoulders in the first 5 minutes told you everything you needed to know about what kind of day he was gonna have. The epitome of a confidence player.
Dirk on the other hand has never suffered from a lack of mental fortitude - he'd run through brick walls all day for us. Where his inconsistency lies is in his ability. Some days he can display a reasonable touch, a nice cross and a thunderous shot - and coupled with his work ethic it makes him - if not quite 'unplayable' - then certainly a damn nuisance. That's the good bits. The bad is when he has his 3 month slump, every second touch is a tackle, poor decision making, poor passing, poor shooting, just poor everything really. This alongside the fact that he's not blessed with any spectacular physical attributes other than stamina - he's not quick, he's not skilful, he's not great in the air, he's not great at holding the ball up . . . he's just Dirk - an honest grafter.
So who's better? Hard to call really, I think both have a goal-to-games ratio of about just under 1 in 4, though it must be said in Dirk's favour he's been shunted out to right wing for much of that. Emile is the more talented, but Dirk is mentally stronger. Between them, I'd probably plump for Dirk, but it's closer than your "fucking Heskey over Kuyt" suggests
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113132#msg1113132 date=1275650834]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113128#msg1113128 date=1275650555]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113070#msg1113070 date=1275644802]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[/quote]
Listen here you cheeky little cunt , it seems I made a mistake, but the only mistake I made was replying to your retarded initial post, with some logic and sound opinion, to give it some credibility.
Funnily enough , coincidentally, Alan Hansen has just said the same as me about the comparative squads, and that has been posted in another thread, here to save your brain going warm looking for it, and oozing out of your ears I will paste it for you.
Sad as it may seem, I have looked at your previous posts and I have to say you are a very poor addition to the site, it might make you seem a little less thick if you had your shift key fixed.
I forgot it was half term this week shouldn't you be revising?
regards
[/quote]
all insults, zero substance
I guess I know who failed an agrument
[/quote]
A fair share of insults, yes indeed, but nothing unwarranted I promise you. I suppose the substance, the bit you chose to ignore, was where one of our greatest ever players, and most respected TV pundits agreed with what I said, and so conversely said what you think is a load of shite.
regards
PS I hope you noticed I did not take the piss out of you re agrument, I am considerate like that
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113128#msg1113128 date=1275650555]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113070#msg1113070 date=1275644802]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
so u take 31 year old didi over 26 year old mascher
31 year old extremely injury prone Å micer over yossi
31 year old sami over agger
and fucking heskey over kuyt
and please u ged apologists tell me which of any ged players above did a damn thing worth a note after rafa sold them. all of them were either playing for second/third tier team in europe or retired. the fact that rafa won the CL with them were nothing short of a miracle. at least we sold torres/reina/masher/agger/johnson, it will worth over 100 millions. what did ged's squad got us? did any of those players flourish at the top team in europe
yeah that's what u mean by "inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms".....what a fucking joke
[/quote]
Listen here you cheeky little cunt , it seems I made a mistake, but the only mistake I made was replying to your retarded initial post, with some logic and sound opinion, to give it some credibility.
Funnily enough , coincidentally, Alan Hansen has just said the same as me about the comparative squads, and that has been posted in another thread, here to save your brain going warm looking for it, and oozing out of your ears I will paste it for you.
I suppose he is a Houllier apologist too.
Sad as it may seem, I have looked at your previous posts and I have to say you are a very poor addition to the site, it might make you seem a little less thick if you had your shift key fixed.
I forgot it was half term this week shouldn't you be revising?
regards
[/quote]
all insults, zero substance
I guess I know who failed an agrument
[/quote]
A fair share of insults, yes indeed, but nothing unwarranted I promise you. I suppose the substance, the bit you chose to ignore, was where one of our greatest ever players, and most respected TV pundits agreed with what I said, and so conversely said what you think is a load of shite.
regards
PS I hope you noticed I did not take the piss out of you re agrument, I am considerate like that
Single , thank you for showing our new friend how discussion works, and pointing the thick twat did not even read my reply before he engaged keyboard (badly), as regards the Yossi v Vladi bit
I agree with you re Heskey v Kuyt to an extent, but was looking at them at the top of their potential.
I did say we could substitute Cisse, in that particular area, I was not a great fan of his either, but feel even he was a better option than the very limited Dirk.
regards
I agree with you re Heskey v Kuyt to an extent, but was looking at them at the top of their potential.
I did say we could substitute Cisse, in that particular area, I was not a great fan of his either, but feel even he was a better option than the very limited Dirk.
regards
Well, brainless he undoubtedly was, but he did score goals, and from the wing as well.
Again, a hugely frustrating player. I dunno who I'd rather, probably Dirk again tbh. Certainly Dirk in a Rafa team - he's probably the best defensive right-winger in the business
Again, a hugely frustrating player. I dunno who I'd rather, probably Dirk again tbh. Certainly Dirk in a Rafa team - he's probably the best defensive right-winger in the business
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1113163#msg1113163 date=1275652326]
Well, brainless he undoubtedly was, but he did score goals, and from the wing as well.
Again, a hugely frustrating player. I dunno who I'd rather, probably Dirk again tbh. Certainly Dirk in a Rafa team - he's probably the only defensive right-winger in the business
[/quote]
Well, brainless he undoubtedly was, but he did score goals, and from the wing as well.
Again, a hugely frustrating player. I dunno who I'd rather, probably Dirk again tbh. Certainly Dirk in a Rafa team - he's probably the only defensive right-winger in the business
[/quote]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1113133#msg1113133 date=1275650873]
Ged 'apologists'?
What is there to apologise for? He bought some great players, left a reasonable(ish) squad but ultimately wasn't quite up to winning the league.
Much like Rafa really.
Didi as a player was not blessed with the athleticism of Mascher, but more than made up for it in wiliness - he had a very cool head, knew the right decisions to make, popped up with the odd (spectacular) goal every now and then and kept the team ticking over.
Mascher, for all his talent, is (in footballing terms) a bit thick at times. He needlessly gets involved in shit he doesn't need to, and whilst it's nice to see the lad show some passion, when it results in a red card it's another head-in-the-hands moment. I think Mascher is sort of more of an individual on the pitch - he's like a dog with a bone, his job is to get the ball off the other guy and that's what he's gonna do - and he's excellent at it. I think Didi kind of saw the bigger picture if you know what I mean, when things needed calming down he'd calm it, that sort of thing, he's more of a team player. Dunno if that makes any sense written out, but it does inside my head.
Vlad vs Yossi, Vlad (our one) actually called it a draw, so it's not Smicer over Yossi, it's evens. That said, I'd put Yossi over Vlad (though in my more sentimental moments, if I saw him kiss the badge after that second goal again, I might pick Vlad).
Sami over Agger. Absolutely. Sami is a true legend, one of the best defenders of the last ten years and a stalwart of a defensive backbone that was renowned for being particularly miserly. Agger, whilst showing some nice skills on the ball coming out and having some great goals to his name (although Sami does too) is nowhere near the defender that Sami was - even when he's 100% fit, which he hardly ever is. As much as I like Danny, he's not fit to lace Sami's boots.
Heskey over Kuyt. Difficult one to call in some respects. Both can be as frustrating as each other, but for different reasons. Heskey is undoubtedly the more talented and blessed of the two - as is evidenced by the fact that on his day he could be completely unplayable - he had pace, strength, an eye for goal, good touch - everything. When he had his confidence high he delivered, such as that season when he was banging them in left right and centre (2000/01?) - he was awesome.
However, when he was bad, he was really really bad. How such a big fucker could get knocked off the ball so easily was mystifying, and the slump of the shoulders in the first 5 minutes told you everything you needed to know about what kind of day he was gonna have. The epitome of a confidence player.
Dirk on the other hand has never suffered from a lack of mental fortitude - he'd run through brick walls all day for us. Where his inconsistency lies is in his ability. Some days he can display a reasonable touch, a nice cross and a thunderous shot - and coupled with his work ethic it makes him - if not quite 'unplayable' - then certainly a damn nuisance. That's the good bits. The bad is when he has his 3 month slump, every second touch is a tackle, poor decision making, poor passing, poor shooting, just poor everything really. This alongside the fact that he's not blessed with any spectacular physical attributes other than stamina - he's not quick, he's not skilful, he's not great in the air, he's not great at holding the ball up . . . he's just Dirk - an honest grafter.
So who's better? Hard to call really, I think both have a goal-to-games ratio of about just under 1 in 4, though it must be said in Dirk's favour he's been shunted out to right wing for much of that. Emile is the more talented, but Dirk is mentally stronger. Between them, I'd probably plump for Dirk, but it's closer than your "fucking Heskey over Kuyt" suggests
[/quote]
With all due respect, I guess u got it all wrong. You are comparing players overall. We were comparing who left the better squad. The fact that Sami was a legend should not make u to take him over agger at the age of over 31. Same as didi. They had minimal transfer value and went into the declining part of their career. Rafa did buy a lot of garbage but he hit the jackpot at torres as well as some very good buy. We can rebuild immediately if we sell them all. No rational manager would take ged's squad over rafa's, much less "healthier squad in a much healthier position in real term" That's the key of the argument.
Ged 'apologists'?
What is there to apologise for? He bought some great players, left a reasonable(ish) squad but ultimately wasn't quite up to winning the league.
Much like Rafa really.
Didi as a player was not blessed with the athleticism of Mascher, but more than made up for it in wiliness - he had a very cool head, knew the right decisions to make, popped up with the odd (spectacular) goal every now and then and kept the team ticking over.
Mascher, for all his talent, is (in footballing terms) a bit thick at times. He needlessly gets involved in shit he doesn't need to, and whilst it's nice to see the lad show some passion, when it results in a red card it's another head-in-the-hands moment. I think Mascher is sort of more of an individual on the pitch - he's like a dog with a bone, his job is to get the ball off the other guy and that's what he's gonna do - and he's excellent at it. I think Didi kind of saw the bigger picture if you know what I mean, when things needed calming down he'd calm it, that sort of thing, he's more of a team player. Dunno if that makes any sense written out, but it does inside my head.
Vlad vs Yossi, Vlad (our one) actually called it a draw, so it's not Smicer over Yossi, it's evens. That said, I'd put Yossi over Vlad (though in my more sentimental moments, if I saw him kiss the badge after that second goal again, I might pick Vlad).
Sami over Agger. Absolutely. Sami is a true legend, one of the best defenders of the last ten years and a stalwart of a defensive backbone that was renowned for being particularly miserly. Agger, whilst showing some nice skills on the ball coming out and having some great goals to his name (although Sami does too) is nowhere near the defender that Sami was - even when he's 100% fit, which he hardly ever is. As much as I like Danny, he's not fit to lace Sami's boots.
Heskey over Kuyt. Difficult one to call in some respects. Both can be as frustrating as each other, but for different reasons. Heskey is undoubtedly the more talented and blessed of the two - as is evidenced by the fact that on his day he could be completely unplayable - he had pace, strength, an eye for goal, good touch - everything. When he had his confidence high he delivered, such as that season when he was banging them in left right and centre (2000/01?) - he was awesome.
However, when he was bad, he was really really bad. How such a big fucker could get knocked off the ball so easily was mystifying, and the slump of the shoulders in the first 5 minutes told you everything you needed to know about what kind of day he was gonna have. The epitome of a confidence player.
Dirk on the other hand has never suffered from a lack of mental fortitude - he'd run through brick walls all day for us. Where his inconsistency lies is in his ability. Some days he can display a reasonable touch, a nice cross and a thunderous shot - and coupled with his work ethic it makes him - if not quite 'unplayable' - then certainly a damn nuisance. That's the good bits. The bad is when he has his 3 month slump, every second touch is a tackle, poor decision making, poor passing, poor shooting, just poor everything really. This alongside the fact that he's not blessed with any spectacular physical attributes other than stamina - he's not quick, he's not skilful, he's not great in the air, he's not great at holding the ball up . . . he's just Dirk - an honest grafter.
So who's better? Hard to call really, I think both have a goal-to-games ratio of about just under 1 in 4, though it must be said in Dirk's favour he's been shunted out to right wing for much of that. Emile is the more talented, but Dirk is mentally stronger. Between them, I'd probably plump for Dirk, but it's closer than your "fucking Heskey over Kuyt" suggests
[/quote]
With all due respect, I guess u got it all wrong. You are comparing players overall. We were comparing who left the better squad. The fact that Sami was a legend should not make u to take him over agger at the age of over 31. Same as didi. They had minimal transfer value and went into the declining part of their career. Rafa did buy a lot of garbage but he hit the jackpot at torres as well as some very good buy. We can rebuild immediately if we sell them all. No rational manager would take ged's squad over rafa's, much less "healthier squad in a much healthier position in real term" That's the key of the argument.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113143#msg1113143 date=1275651387]
A fair share of insults, yes indeed, but nothing unwarranted I promise you. I suppose the substance, the bit you chose to ignore, was where one of our greatest ever players, and most respected TV pundits agreed with what I said, and so conversely said what you think is a load of shite.
regards
PS I hope you noticed I did not take the piss out of you re agrument, I am considerate like that
[/quote]
yeah i apologise for the fact that I didnt take a former footballer opinion as gospel. and he also predicted we would win the title this year...... oh wait......
A fair share of insults, yes indeed, but nothing unwarranted I promise you. I suppose the substance, the bit you chose to ignore, was where one of our greatest ever players, and most respected TV pundits agreed with what I said, and so conversely said what you think is a load of shite.
regards
PS I hope you noticed I did not take the piss out of you re agrument, I am considerate like that
[/quote]
yeah i apologise for the fact that I didnt take a former footballer opinion as gospel. and he also predicted we would win the title this year...... oh wait......
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113169#msg1113169 date=1275652767]
With all due respect, I guess u got it all wrong. You are comparing players overall. We were comparing who left the better squad. The fact that Sami was a legend should not make u to take him over agger at the age of over 31. Same as didi. They had minimal transfer value and went into the declining part of their career. Rafa did buy a lot of garbage but he hit the jackpot at torres as well as some very good buy. We can rebuild immediately if we sell them all. No rational manager would take ged's squad over rafa's, much less "healthier squad in a much healthier position in real term" That's the key of the argument.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why you keeping banging this drum, considering how Sami actually played the whole season save those ill-fated experiments with Pellegrino. And when you consider that Agger only ONCE managed more appearances in subsequent seasons than Sami, you'd have to be a madman to not retain a player like Sami, inherited squad or not.
In fact the last manager not to retain Sami... oh.
With all due respect, I guess u got it all wrong. You are comparing players overall. We were comparing who left the better squad. The fact that Sami was a legend should not make u to take him over agger at the age of over 31. Same as didi. They had minimal transfer value and went into the declining part of their career. Rafa did buy a lot of garbage but he hit the jackpot at torres as well as some very good buy. We can rebuild immediately if we sell them all. No rational manager would take ged's squad over rafa's, much less "healthier squad in a much healthier position in real term" That's the key of the argument.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why you keeping banging this drum, considering how Sami actually played the whole season save those ill-fated experiments with Pellegrino. And when you consider that Agger only ONCE managed more appearances in subsequent seasons than Sami, you'd have to be a madman to not retain a player like Sami, inherited squad or not.
In fact the last manager not to retain Sami... oh.
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited. The one rafa took over was aging for the most part, this is a relatively mixed side with five or six good to excellent mid 20's ish players. The squad is arguably worse, but the team is easily better. Reina, Kuyt, carra, skrtel, agger, johnson, masher, torres, gerrard and yossi is a lot better than what rafa took on.. the only issue is over how many of them stay.
Heskey and Owen both went straight away, as did Henchoz anyway.
Heskey and Owen both went straight away, as did Henchoz anyway.
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
I've agreed with most of your assessments of late Vlad, but I think this one is quite obviously clouded with bias.
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge
what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]
but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest
reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.
Ged wins 4-2,
You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.
Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.
As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.
regards
[/quote]
I've agreed with most of your assessments of late Vlad, but I think this one is quite obviously clouded with bias.
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113169#msg1113169 date=1275652767]
So who's better? Hard to call really, I think both have a goal-to-games ratio of about just under 1 in 4, though it must be said in Dirk's favour he's been shunted out to right wing for much of that. Emile is the more talented, but Dirk is mentally stronger. Between them, I'd probably plump for Dirk, but it's closer than your "fucking Heskey over Kuyt" suggests
[/quote]
Heskey was unplayable for 18 months, then absolute shite thereafter, Kuyt has been a better option, he gives us more and has shown he can score in the big games.
Regards Vlad vs Yossi, is there really an argument to be had? Just compare their goals and assists records, Yossi is miles ahead.
*I'm not dressing Yossi or Kuyt up as World beaters, but I'd take both over Ged's buys for their overall contribution.
So who's better? Hard to call really, I think both have a goal-to-games ratio of about just under 1 in 4, though it must be said in Dirk's favour he's been shunted out to right wing for much of that. Emile is the more talented, but Dirk is mentally stronger. Between them, I'd probably plump for Dirk, but it's closer than your "fucking Heskey over Kuyt" suggests
[/quote]
Heskey was unplayable for 18 months, then absolute shite thereafter, Kuyt has been a better option, he gives us more and has shown he can score in the big games.
Regards Vlad vs Yossi, is there really an argument to be had? Just compare their goals and assists records, Yossi is miles ahead.
*I'm not dressing Yossi or Kuyt up as World beaters, but I'd take both over Ged's buys for their overall contribution.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113178#msg1113178 date=1275653438]
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited.
[/quote]
You kidding mate?
Back then we had players like Diao, Diouf, Biscan, Cheyrou and Mellor to provide squad depth. Guys we could rely on.
Who do we have now? Lucas?
HA!
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited.
[/quote]
You kidding mate?
Back then we had players like Diao, Diouf, Biscan, Cheyrou and Mellor to provide squad depth. Guys we could rely on.
Who do we have now? Lucas?
HA!
[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1113184#msg1113184 date=1275653748]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113178#msg1113178 date=1275653438]
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited.
[/quote]
You kidding mate?
Back then we had players like Diao, Diouf, Biscan, Cheyrou and Mellor to provide squad depth. Players we could rely on.
Who do we have now? Lucas?
HA!
[/quote]
lol. My sentiments. Or am I stating the bleeding obvious?
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113178#msg1113178 date=1275653438]
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited.
[/quote]
You kidding mate?
Back then we had players like Diao, Diouf, Biscan, Cheyrou and Mellor to provide squad depth. Players we could rely on.
Who do we have now? Lucas?
HA!
[/quote]
lol. My sentiments. Or am I stating the bleeding obvious?
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40459.msg1113178#msg1113178 date=1275653438]
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited. The one rafa took over was aging for the most part, this is a relatively mixed side with five or six good to excellent mid 20's ish players. The squad is arguably worse, but the team is easily better. Reina, Kuyt, carra, skrtel, agger, johnson, masher, torres, gerrard and yossi is a lot better than what rafa took on.. the only issue is over how many of them stay.
Heskey and Owen both went straight away, as did Henchoz anyway.
[/quote]
Bang on Mark.
I don't think we have a worse team now than the one rafa inherrited. The one rafa took over was aging for the most part, this is a relatively mixed side with five or six good to excellent mid 20's ish players. The squad is arguably worse, but the team is easily better. Reina, Kuyt, carra, skrtel, agger, johnson, masher, torres, gerrard and yossi is a lot better than what rafa took on.. the only issue is over how many of them stay.
Heskey and Owen both went straight away, as did Henchoz anyway.
[/quote]
Bang on Mark.
- Status
