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Legacies - Rafa vs Ged

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Calm down lads!

Rafa is always going to be remembered for the miracle of Istanbul and his sole FA Cup victory. That gave us unforgettable joy. Who can forget that night? Nobody will remember that we lost a few cup finals. Getting to the finals counts for nothing. Only winners are remembered in the history books.

Whether you like Rafa or not is irrelevant. Respect the man for he has achieved for us. He took Ged's misfits and turned them into CL winners. That is the equivalent of Jesus turning water into wine. We have a much more talented first XI now but it counts for nothing simply because they failed to deliver a minimum of 4th. Rafa as coach must shoulder that responsibility and so must the players. Some of them simply didn't turn up this season and the team looked like it lacked the hunger. Politics and injuries should not be used as an excuse.

Rafa getting the boot will be fitting after a nightmare season. He must accept responsibility and be held accountable. We are in the results business and he failed to produce it. Sentimentality and nostalgia just doesn't cut it. We are in serious danger of fading away into mediocrity and staying there if we sell our crown jewels.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112132#msg1112132 date=1275561023]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1112126#msg1112126 date=1275560724]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112122#msg1112122 date=1275560478]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112105#msg1112105 date=1275559975]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112082#msg1112082 date=1275559555]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112075#msg1112075 date=1275559464]
Or just try to stop flip flopping all over the place.
[/quote]Yeah that makes sense.
[/quote]

You can't have it both ways Oncy.

You've been banging on about us having a very good 1st team and that Rafa is simply fucking it up. Now that it looks like he's gone you're spouting off about his legacy taking us years to recover from.


[/quote]Look I don't know why you're being so fucking wierd about it, as vlad has said in another thread noone lumps you in with the mentals, I dig you. So for the last time.
Our squad is better player for player than when Ged left without doubt. But what has to be taken into account is wether or not those players will still be here for a new manager. You suggest that being 7th and out of Europe won't be a factor. I think it will.
That's all.

[/quote]

What YOU need to do Mr 39000, is stop calling people who don't share your opinions, 'mental'. That's name calling and when you do that, you get name called back and then the thread degenerates. Stop it at once.
[/quote]Stop following me around you fucking wum.
I disagree with plenty of people, some of them are mental some aren't. I'll let you guess where I file you.
Now please for the last time fuck off.
[/quote]

Politeness won't work with me. Take your own advice. I 'follow around' who I choose to especially when they are insulting and gobby. Deal.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112147#msg1112147 date=1275561612]
If Houllier's squad was awful, yet he qualified for the Champions League with them, and Benitez's squad is amazing, yet he only took it to 7th place, who did a better job?
[/quote]


i'd say that houllier finished higher in the league, which is about all the reflection that question deserves.
 
There is no question Rafa achieved more with us than Houllier did in his time here. And that's not meant with any disrespect to Ged. Hopefully our next manager will achieve more again.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112147#msg1112147 date=1275561612]
If Houllier's squad was awful, yet he qualified for the Champions League with them, and Benitez's squad is amazing, yet he only took it to 7th place, who did a better job?
[/quote]

Did anybody say Rafa did a good job THIS fucking year? This year has been a nightmare and nobody can deny it. He will get fired because of that. But does it make him forever a bad manager? Does it mean he won the CL only because of ged's "wonderful" squad? Does it make CL champions less of a achievement?
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112147#msg1112147 date=1275561612]
If Houllier's squad was awful, yet he qualified for the Champions League with them, and Benitez's squad is amazing, yet he only took it to 7th place, who did a better job?
[/quote]

I'm not convinced Houllier's squad would make top four in today's league.
 
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=40459.msg1112160#msg1112160 date=1275562384]
Houllier left after being backed heavily in his final season i might add....
[/quote]

Benitez was backed the summer before last.

And he still spent 30M last year.
 
I would never say that benitez didn't have some excellent achievements but I will always argue with the feeble argument that the squad was awful and he was a miracle worker. Houllier did some decent stuff too.

As a short term legacy he left a squad with many international players and a cl place. Benitez almost leaves the same!

As a long term legacy it is impossible to judge as noone knows what a new manager or owner might do.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112177#msg1112177 date=1275563114]
I would never say that benitez didn't have some excellent achievements but I will always argue with the feeble argument that the squad was awful and he was a miracle worker. Houllier did some decent stuff too.

As a short term legacy he left a squad with many international players and a cl place. Benitez almost leaves the same!

As a long term legacy it is impossible to judge as noone knows what a new manager or owner might do.
[/quote]


but benitez won the CL with a squad ged could only take to 4th!!!!!!! therefore it must follow that rafa's better than houllier... or maybe not?

this kind of logic doesn't much work with football - or anything else, really.
 
Houiller's team after 5 seasons was better than Rafa's after 6.
Rafa fucked up big time last season, he should have been sacked at Christmas but we dont do that at LFC.
That cost us a CL spot and a catastrophical financial situation.
I always said giving him such a contract was a massive mistake from the silly Yanks.

I hope Vlad is right and we can find new owners very soon
Lets move on now and I back the Dalglish/Rush solution.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40459.msg1112193#msg1112193 date=1275563667]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112177#msg1112177 date=1275563114]
I would never say that benitez didn't have some excellent achievements but I will always argue with the feeble argument that the squad was awful and he was a miracle worker. Houllier did some decent stuff too.

As a short term legacy he left a squad with many international players and a cl place. Benitez almost leaves the same!

As a long term legacy it is impossible to judge as noone knows what a new manager or owner might do.
[/quote]


but benitez won the CL with a squad ged could only take to 4th!!!!!!! therefore it must follow that rafa's better than houllier... or maybe not?

this kind of logic doesn't much work with football - or anything else, really.
[/quote]

No it doesn't. Which is why I raised the original question, just to show that this kind of thing works both ways.

In either way it has little to do with the post of mine that you actually quoted there
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112209#msg1112209 date=1275564099]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40459.msg1112193#msg1112193 date=1275563667]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112177#msg1112177 date=1275563114]
I would never say that benitez didn't have some excellent achievements but I will always argue with the feeble argument that the squad was awful and he was a miracle worker. Houllier did some decent stuff too.

As a short term legacy he left a squad with many international players and a cl place. Benitez almost leaves the same!

As a long term legacy it is impossible to judge as noone knows what a new manager or owner might do.
[/quote]


but benitez won the CL with a squad ged could only take to 4th!!!!!!! therefore it must follow that rafa's better than houllier... or maybe not?

this kind of logic doesn't much work with football - or anything else, really.
[/quote]

No it doesn't. Which is why I raised the original question, just to show that this kind of thing works both ways.

In either way it has little to do with the post of mine that you actually quoted there
[/quote]


but i don't think anyone's arguing what you seem to be implying they were. what point were you actually trying to make with your original post?
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1112151#msg1112151 date=1275561878]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112132#msg1112132 date=1275561023]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1112126#msg1112126 date=1275560724]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112122#msg1112122 date=1275560478]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112105#msg1112105 date=1275559975]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112082#msg1112082 date=1275559555]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112075#msg1112075 date=1275559464]
Or just try to stop flip flopping all over the place.
[/quote]Yeah that makes sense.
[/quote]

You can't have it both ways Oncy.

You've been banging on about us having a very good 1st team and that Rafa is simply fucking it up. Now that it looks like he's gone you're spouting off about his legacy taking us years to recover from.


[/quote]Look I don't know why you're being so fucking wierd about it, as vlad has said in another thread noone lumps you in with the mentals, I dig you. So for the last time.
Our squad is better player for player than when Ged left without doubt. But what has to be taken into account is wether or not those players will still be here for a new manager. You suggest that being 7th and out of Europe won't be a factor. I think it will.
That's all.

[/quote]

What YOU need to do Mr 39000, is stop calling people who don't share your opinions, 'mental'. That's name calling and when you do that, you get name called back and then the thread degenerates. Stop it at once.
[/quote]Stop following me around you fucking wum.
I disagree with plenty of people, some of them are mental some aren't. I'll let you guess where I file you.
Now please for the last time fuck off.
[/quote]

Politeness won't work with me. Take your own advice. I 'follow around' who I choose to especially when they are insulting and gobby. Deal.
[/quote]Haha you're a fucking tragicunt.
Carry on then.
 
Everyone forgets these 'misfits' which rafa turned into world beaters also finished 5th that season

Our squad may be better now but if we look back we were more successful with ged.'But no one takes those cups seriously'. Which is why we beat arsenal and man united it finals? They obviously didn't take it seriously.

BEsides, after years of mediocrity who the Fuck are we to decide what trophies are beneath us? They're there to be won I'm thrilled with 05 champs but Fuck me, using 1 trophy to undermine 5 others is disgusting and unfairly biased.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=40459.msg1112293#msg1112293 date=1275567505]
Everyone forgets these 'misfits' which rafa turned into world beaters also finished 5th that season

Our squad may be better now but if we look back we were more successful with ged.'But no one takes those cups seriously'. Which is why we beat arsenal and man united it finals? They obviously didn't take it seriously.

BEsides, after years of mediocrity who the Fuck are we to decide what trophies are beneath us? They're there to be won I'm thrilled with 05 champs but Fuck me, using 1 trophy to undermine 5 others is disgusting and unfairly biased.
[/quote]

i don't think anyone's saying that ged's cups were worthless, but, frankly, i'd trade the 2 league cups & a uefa for the CL every time. i really think people have short memories about this: winning the european cup was almost inconceiveable in the summer of 2004. it was, and i don't think this is hyperbolic, a footballing miracle.

the next manager could win the uefa cup for the next 7 years running and i still wouldn't anticipate our star striker celebrating a goal at old trafford with 10 outstretched fingers. well, 8 fingers and 2 thumbs...you get the point.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1112126#msg1112126 date=1275560724]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112122#msg1112122 date=1275560478]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112105#msg1112105 date=1275559975]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112082#msg1112082 date=1275559555]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112075#msg1112075 date=1275559464]
Or just try to stop flip flopping all over the place.
[/quote]Yeah that makes sense.
[/quote]

You can't have it both ways Oncy.

You've been banging on about us having a very good 1st team and that Rafa is simply fucking it up. Now that it looks like he's gone you're spouting off about his legacy taking us years to recover from.


[/quote]Look I don't know why you're being so fucking wierd about it, as vlad has said in another thread noone lumps you in with the mentals, I dig you. So for the last time.
Our squad is better player for player than when Ged left without doubt. But what has to be taken into account is wether or not those players will still be here for a new manager. You suggest that being 7th and out of Europe won't be a factor. I think it will.
That's all.

[/quote]

What YOU need to do Mr 39000, is stop calling people who don't share your opinions, 'mental'. That's name calling and when you do that, you get name called back and then the thread degenerates. Stop it at once.
[/quote]

Except he expressly said he didn't lump you in with the mentals, didn't he?

Tell you what, why not tell him to get a woman, man or a life again. That'll stop the thread degenerating for sure
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1112393#msg1112393 date=1275573453]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1112126#msg1112126 date=1275560724]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112122#msg1112122 date=1275560478]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112105#msg1112105 date=1275559975]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112082#msg1112082 date=1275559555]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=40459.msg1112075#msg1112075 date=1275559464]
Or just try to stop flip flopping all over the place.
[/quote]Yeah that makes sense.
[/quote]

You can't have it both ways Oncy.

You've been banging on about us having a very good 1st team and that Rafa is simply fucking it up. Now that it looks like he's gone you're spouting off about his legacy taking us years to recover from.


[/quote]Look I don't know why you're being so fucking wierd about it, as vlad has said in another thread noone lumps you in with the mentals, I dig you. So for the last time.
Our squad is better player for player than when Ged left without doubt. But what has to be taken into account is wether or not those players will still be here for a new manager. You suggest that being 7th and out of Europe won't be a factor. I think it will.
That's all.

[/quote]

What YOU need to do Mr 39000, is stop calling people who don't share your opinions, 'mental'. That's name calling and when you do that, you get name called back and then the thread degenerates. Stop it at once.
[/quote]

Except he expressly said he didn't lump you in with the mentals, didn't he?

Tell you what, why not tell him to get a woman, man or a life again. That'll stop the thread degenerating for sure
[/quote]Na I wasn't talking to him Singe. He's just followed me in here where I was talking to rafa4pm who isn't a mental. This cunt clearly is a mental.
Just read his posts.
 
So I guess the original thing I was trying to get at was this:

Despite what he achieved and did for us, Ged is treated with very little respect by some people, probably largely down to him overstaying his welcome by a season or so - some people cannot see past those dark days and recognise the good things he achieved.

Will this be the same for Rafa, or will everyone acknowledge the good as well as the bad?
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1112401#msg1112401 date=1275573888]
So I guess the original thing I was trying to get at was this:

Despite what he achieved and did for us, Ged is treated with very little respect by some people, probably largely down to him overstaying his welcome by a season or so - some people cannot see past those dark days and recognise the good things he achieved.

Will this be the same for Rafa, or will everyone acknowledge the good as well as the bad?
[/quote]

This I wonder about.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1112396#msg1112396 date=1275573641]
Na I wasn't talking to him Singe. He's just followed me in here where I was talking to rafa4pm who isn't a mental. This cunt clearly is a mental.
Just read his posts.
[/quote]

Oh yeah, my bad. I thought it was all the same person, soz R4PM.

Did we ever get to the bottom of whether he was youknowwho?
 
I was not a rafa fan, but rafa made our squad stronger. My vote is for rafa, although in saying that.. Ged did have much less money to spend
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111734#msg1111734 date=1275526065]
Benitez will be remembered favourably, as a man who loved the club, the city and it's fans. His success in 2005 will be talked about for the next hundred years, and his tactical nous over the years made us the most feared team on the continent.

It's all gone to shit because he cannot build a squad, is too stubborn, is overly cautious by nature, has blind-spots in regards to certain players, and is too political.

I have no doubt he'll do brilliantly in Italy, however he's not the man for us any more. Despite this, I wish him well for the future and will always he first to thank him for bringing me my happiest day of supporting this great club.

YNWA


[/quote]
I think that's well said. Rafa did some things and acted in some ways that many of us found a little odd - and he was never one to feel he had to justify his actions. But he brought us the best trophy we've ever won in the lifetime of many young reds - a trophy I wasn't sure I'd ever see us win again. He brought us closer to the Premier League crown than we've ever been.
As with Ged there's a feeling of deep frustration on his departure that so much hope and expectation did not come to fruition, but there will remain (more than with Houllier I think) a deep affection once we've all moved on.
YNWA Rafa. Thanks for the wonderful memories.
 
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=40459.msg1112537#msg1112537 date=1275578313]
I was not a rafa fan, but rafa made our squad stronger. My vote is for rafa, although in saying that.. Ged did have much less money to spend
[/quote]

In real terms Ged spent far more according to the 'Transfer Price Index' which is quoted as between 95% and 99% accurate.

In actual terms, Houllier spent £130.9m on players. In today’s money, adjusted using TPI (i.e football inflation) that equates to £245m. But of course, it’s important to see how much was recouped; more on that in a moment.

In actual terms, Benítez has spent £223m. In today’s money (transfer prices have of course risen since he started buying players in 2004), adjusted using TPI (football inflation) that equates to £278m.

Houllier sold players for an actual amount of £60.3m. Using TPI inflation, that translates to £99.4m.

Benítez has sold players for a total of £159.3m. Using TPI inflation, that translates to £215.1m.

Therefore, Rafa Benítez net spend, when adjusted to inflation, equals £63,550,192, compared with Gérard Houllier’s far greater total of £146,061,083.

On average, using TPI to create an even playing field, Benítez has spent £10.5m net per season, while Houllier spent £24.4m; roughly two-and-a-half times as much. Houllier clearly had more supportive backers than Benítez.

Of course, these figures include money raised by selling players they inherited.

Both men lost around £12m (actual) on local stars who went to Real Madrid (McManaman in 1999, Owen in 2004) for less than their market worth due to contract issues, within one year of the new boss taking over. So that was an early blow to both managers.

However, only 29.5% of Houllier’s income was from selling his own players (such as Heskey, Barmby and Ziege); the rest came from selling his predecessor’s signings, or home-grown talents like Fowler, Thompson and Matteo.

By contrast, Benítez has raised £128.8m TPI (£109.9m actual) from selling his own players: 59.8% of the money he has raised through sales has been from offloading his own purchases – twice as much as with Houllier.

Now, of course, in some cases (such as Robbie Keane and Andrea Dossena), Benítez was selling his own mistakes for a loss. I don’t think there is a manager alive who hasn’t done this (Houllier did so with Ziege, for example), and the key is to get as much as possible, as quickly as possible.

However, a lot of money was raised from selling the likes of Alonso, Sissoko, Bellamy, Crouch, Carson, et al, for a profit; in some cases, after a few years of sterling service.

What’s interesting is that every single player Houllier signed has now left Liverpool FC. They did so for an actual combined price of just £52.6m, or £86.9m when adjusted with TPI.

Benítez has already raised far more than this from his sales, and that’s before (perish the thought) any potential sale of Torres, Reina, Agger, Johnson, Benayoun, Kuyt and Mascherano, who between them, at current value, could raise another £150m.

In fairness to Houllier, players like Hyypia and Hamann left the club on free transfers having served the Reds with distinction, to the point in time when they were too old to sell. None of us would complain if Torres left on a free, aged 33, after seven more years of goals.

Even so, the figures seem to support the view that Benítez has outperformed his predecessor.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Benítez has had to sell his own players to raise much of his own transfer funds. He has also raised more money through European progression, and yet despite this, the current squad costs only £143m, between £50m-£100m behind those of Spurs, City, Chelsea and United.

Benítez’s win percentage in the league is 55%, to Houllier’s 49%. But Houllier only had one year of Chelsea’s wealth to contend with; and the Stamford Bridge outfit spent another £100m the summer Benítez arrived.

Houllier had a great United side (1999) and Arsenal’s Invincibles to battle, but Benítez has had to face what Alex Ferguson believes to be a better United team, plus the might of Chelsea (and now City). And of course, when Benítez arrived, that Arsenal side were reigning champions.

Benítez has averaged 72.2 points per season, Houllier managed 65.7 (just 2.7 more points on average than in the ‘disastrous’ season we’ve just witnessed). Houllier qualified for the Champions League three times (once would be for the season after he left), Benítez five. Benítez’s best tally in a season was 86, Houllier’s was 80.

Houllier won four trophies, Benítez two. Benítez won one of the two that really matter, and made another Champions League final.

Houllier did a good job – especially up to 2002 – and Benítez has done a better job.

However, Rafa cannot regularly work miracles, and the more financially adrift the Reds find themselves, the harder it will be to simply tread water, let alone forge ahead.


Source: http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/05/houllier-vs-benitez-spend-analysis/
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111734#msg1111734 date=1275526065]
Benitez will be remembered favourably, as a man who loved the club, the city and it's fans. His success in 2005 will be talked about for the next hundred years, and his tactical nous over the years made us the most feared team on the continent.

It's all gone to shit because he cannot build a squad, is too stubborn, is overly cautious by nature, has blind-spots in regards to certain players, and is too political.

I have no doubt he'll do brilliantly in Italy, however he's not the man for us any more. Despite this, I wish him well for the future and will always he first to thank him for bringing me my happiest day of supporting this great club.

YNWA


[/quote]

A perfect summary.
 
So the Transfer Price Index, created by Paul Tomkins, is - according to Paul Tomkins - between 95-99% accurate.

Hmmmm . . .
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1112812#msg1112812 date=1275600760]
So the Transfer Price Index, created by Paul Tomkins, is - according to Paul Tomkins - between 95-99% accurate.

Hmmmm . . .
[/quote]

does that mean even he can't believe 1%-5% of his own bullshit?
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40459.msg1112147#msg1112147 date=1275561612]
If Houllier's squad was awful, yet he qualified for the Champions League with them, and Benitez's squad is amazing, yet he only took it to 7th place, who did a better job?
[/quote]

Touche ....
 
I've not read all of this and hope I am quiffing.

Neither won the league, both won an FA cup, yet only one of them won ol' big ears. End of story.
 
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