Last night..

[mark1975]

...actually scared the fuck out of me for the first time (well certainly more than I have been so far), we've been bad this season but not as bad as we were last night. The organisation was terrible. The defence were poor but they got zero protection and were more or less playing as a back three thanks to johnson's "I play were the fuck I like" attitude (and terrible positioning). When Agger came on it didn't make any difference, and that's no reflection on him or the rest, the setup is just fucking atrocious.

The midfield don't drop to the edge of the box at all to protect, which just exposes our weaknesses at the back. Lucas did all the running in midfield last night, for how poor he is the lad was trying to cover holes everywhere and isn't good enough to do so, but then again he shouldn't be left to do it all singlehandedly either.

Closing down within the team is non-existent and it's gradually filtered out over a period of time, which suggests it's down to the manager not having the influence over the players, with the players gradually showing the lack of team spirit and backing of the manager. If they're not playing to instructions, what are they playing to? Who are they playing for? Certainly not Roy anyway.

It will please me to see a new manager come in and hopefully get the best from a good group of players, but the true colours of some has also left a sour taste and it'll take a longtime for the likes of Torres and Maxi to rectify that. Maxi should never play an away game again. They play for the club, I don't give a fuck how downbeat they are about the manager. We all want him gone but we want the best for the club aswell, and points (and success) are and always will be the most important thing, regardless of off the field battles.

First G&H and now this shite. We need to find our identity again. A new manager, a new year, a new dawn. I hope a few players have a good look in the mirror aswell though and they grow a conscience overnight, otherwise they don't deserve to move forward with us.

 

[Insignificance]

Blackburn came to some really huge chances. And as poor the defending was one a few of the goals, I totally agree with you that it is the teamunit defending that is gone away completely after Rafa left. We are unable to press efficient, and we are exposed in many areas.

Regarding Johnson. Well, in a good Liverpool team he will be offering a lot. In a Liverpool team going to park the bus in tricky awaygames against Blackburn, Fulham, Stoke etc he is not much to rely on. But what do we really want? We have all been crying cause i.e. Carra doesnt offer anything from the right back, and when someone do we dont need that? I am baffled about Roy approach really. He just dont know what we are, who we are.

 

[mark1975]

I just don't rate him as a defender at all.

First half yesterday, Soto was exposed, second half, Skrtel was exposed. Carragher was exposed for the whole of last season and made to look half the player he is because GJ completely unbalanced the defence.

Our defence has been poor and nowhere near the standards it once set since his arrival.

As for us. Well it reminded me of watching Peter Reid's Leeds team, the season they went down. I remember being astounded that a team with good players could play so badly and look like a relegation side. He's got to go today.

 

[Sunny]

Well said. I've felt that way for ages Mark. Not all down to the manager but he does have to take a huge swathe of blame as we've discussed. Some players seem to lack the basic passion for the game, pride in the red shirt and even some self respect. They should be ashamed of themselves. But they won't be as they swan home in their Aston Martins to their model girlfriends and millionaire mansions. Seriously, how the fuck does someone as untalented as Paul Konchesky become a millionaire without winning the lottery ? It baffles me. They've got it too easy and it's time they started getting some shite for the way the play. Lack of talent there's not much we can do about just yet - we have the players we have. What I can never excuse - and this is what has riled me more than almost anything over the last two years - is the complete lack of spirit, fight and passion. I can accept defeat - I cannot accept uas constantly playing like we've already been defeated.

 

[spider-Neil]

roy simply has no clue how to make his team play as a unit.

he has no clue how to reduce the gaping holes all over the pitch.

he is utterly shit scared push players up the pitch to reduce those gaps and would rather remain static and ridgid waiting for the ball to come to the team when we don't have it rather than go after the ball in numbers.

he is utterly, utterly, clueless and it's a shame that a manager I thought was tactically excellent (but was prone to overthinking the opposition) had to make way for him.

 

[Sunny]

P.S. Our defence is shite at the moment. There was not one player in that back line who's even half decent defensively. Soto tries but is limited. Skrtel is a liability. Johnson is just taking the piss now. And Konchesky is just fucking hopeless and so far out of his depth.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43441.msg1244584#msg1244584 date=1294301446]
roy simply has no clue how to make his team play as a unit.

he has no clue how to reduce the gaping holes all over the pitch.

he is utterly shit scared push players up the pitch to reduce those gaps and would rather remain static and ridgid waiting for the ball to come to the team when we don't have it rather than go after the ball in numbers.

he is utterly, utterly, clueless and it's a shame that a manager I thought was tactically excellent (but was prone to overthinking the opposition) had to make way for him.
[/quote]

You and your tactical bollocks.

Come back to us when you're the Division 1a Champ of the SCM Xpert Eleven League. We might listen to you then.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43441.msg1244585#msg1244585 date=1294301486]
P.S. Our defence is shite at the moment. There was not one player in that back line who's even half decent defensively. Soto tries but is limited. Skrtel is a liability. Johnson is just taking the piss now. And Konchesky is just fucking hopeless and so far out of his depth.
[/quote]

skrtel was always a liability, he has always lacked positional sense but as his protection got worse he became more and more exposed.

the greek was bought as cover, so he is what he is.

cuntcheskey can't pick himself so if roy wants to persist in picking him over aurelio he (roy) can go fuck himself)

johnson is taking the piss but I place some of the blame on a manager for not finding a way to cover his runs. where else is the width going to come from?

 

[Y1]

Wow, from a team that needed 2 or 3 world class players to come in, now e need 8 or 9 world class players to compete for 4th. How far have we fallen in a season!?

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=43441.msg1244590#msg1244590 date=1294302081]
Wow, from a team that needed 2 or 3 world class players to come in, now e need 8 or 9 world class players to compete for 4th. How far have we fallen in a season!?
[/quote]

Isnt it obvious? Just listen to the pundits. We have allways been piss poor, its just Benitez who managed to hide that fact.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43441.msg1244587#msg1244587 date=1294301788]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43441.msg1244584#msg1244584 date=1294301446]
roy simply has no clue how to make his team play as a unit.

he has no clue how to reduce the gaping holes all over the pitch.

he is utterly shit scared push players up the pitch to reduce those gaps and would rather remain static and ridgid waiting for the ball to come to the team when we don't have it rather than go after the ball in numbers.

he is utterly, utterly, clueless and it's a shame that a manager I thought was tactically excellent (but was prone to overthinking the opposition) had to make way for him.
[/quote]

You and your tactical bollocks.

Come back to us when you're the Division 1a Champ of the SCM Xpert Eleven League. We might listen to you then.
[/quote]

Half the problems are the ones he's telling us to do. We pushed up the pitch and we were exposed time and time again. The defence aren't quick enough to push any higher onto the midfield, and hardly any team does it away from home in the Premiership anyway, because it's fucking suicide.

Last night Johnson looked like he was given licence to push up as much as he wanted, and it showed. The midfield pushed up and exposed the back four, and it showed.

It's all bollocks. We lost last night, tactically, because we weren't compact enough and we didn't protect the back four AT ALL.

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=43441.msg1244591#msg1244591 date=1294302149]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=43441.msg1244590#msg1244590 date=1294302081]
Wow, from a team that needed 2 or 3 world class players to come in, now e need 8 or 9 world class players to compete for 4th. How far have we fallen in a season!?
[/quote]

Isnt it obvious? Just listen to the pundits. We have allways been piss poor, its just Benitez who managed to hide that fact.
[/quote]

Ah the great pundits who say that Roy is our man! Great. Simply great.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=43441.msg1244592#msg1244592 date=1294302172]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=43441.msg1244587#msg1244587 date=1294301788]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43441.msg1244584#msg1244584 date=1294301446]
roy simply has no clue how to make his team play as a unit.

he has no clue how to reduce the gaping holes all over the pitch.

he is utterly shit scared push players up the pitch to reduce those gaps and would rather remain static and ridgid waiting for the ball to come to the team when we don't have it rather than go after the ball in numbers.

he is utterly, utterly, clueless and it's a shame that a manager I thought was tactically excellent (but was prone to overthinking the opposition) had to make way for him.
[/quote]

You and your tactical bollocks.

Come back to us when you're the Division 1a Champ of the SCM Xpert Eleven League. We might listen to you then.
[/quote]

Half the problems are the ones he's telling us to do. We pushed up the pitch and we were exposed time and time again. The defence aren't quick enough to push any higher onto the midfield, and hardly any team does it away from home in the Premiership anyway, because it's fucking suicide.

Last night Johnson looked like he was given licence to push up as much as he wanted, and it showed. The midfield pushed up and exposed the back four, and it showed.

It's all bollocks. We lost last night, tactically, because we weren't compact enough and we didn't protect the back four AT ALL.
[/quote]

it isn't just a case of holding a high line, as you said it's about remaining compact, it's about defending and attacking as a unit, the TEAM dropping back to defend the TEAM getting forwards to attack. how is it possible for the defence to be exposed AND the attackers to be isolated? how is that fucking even POSSIBLE?!!

35 years this fucker has been in the business 35 fucking years!!
hasn't he watch the great teams of the past? doesn't he watch any modern great teams?
I really wish I could watch his tactics and see what he is trying to do, but you can't see his tactics because they are a mess.

 

[mark1975]

You can't remain compact any higher up the pitch away from home, and certainly not with two shite fullbacks and a central defender who can't run.

N'Gog and Torres weren't isolated, they might not get the support they always need, but they saw enough of the ball. Torres didn't want to know, he also missed a sitter (again). N'Gog constantly pulled wide, which we often see Torres do too, because our wide play is non-existent.

The defence were constantly exposed down our right and though the middle because GJ was nowhere, Lucas was left alone in the centre of the pitch, and no one closed down.

 

[KopPoNok]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=43441.msg1244578#msg1244578 date=1294301135]
Regarding Johnson. Well, in a good Liverpool team he will be offering a lot. In a Liverpool team going to park the bus in tricky awaygames against Blackburn, Fulham, Stoke etc he is not much to rely on. But what do we really want? We have all been crying cause i.e. Carra doesnt offer anything from the right back, and when someone do we dont need that? I am baffled about Roy approach really. He just dont know what we are, who we are.
[/quote]

He could have played Kelly in RB and GlenJo in RM though.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=43441.msg1244598#msg1244598 date=1294302822]
You can't remain compact any higher up the pitch away from home, [/quote]

what do you mean by that? yes you can.
you need competent central midfielders that provide the bridge between the defense and attack and fill gaps left by fullbacks especially if those fullbacks are the only source of width.

you need central defenders that can read the game and position themselves to reduce the risk of getting caught on the break.

you need strikers that put pressure on the opposition defenders early and often.

you need the entire team to work hard and in numbers to hunt for the ball when you lose it.

it is ABSOLUTELY possible to press and remain compact away from home.
the trouble is there are gaps between players that should tight together.
gaps between the two CB
gaps between the two CM
gaps between the two CF

easy pickings for pulling the team all over the place and exposing them.

 

[jexykrodic]

If you think it's bad now remind yourselves that we have Man Utd and Everton to play in the next 10 days and I cannot see us getting a result against either. I am not even sure we can get points against Blackpool.

I don't think we can 'work' our way out of the current situation with more hard work on the training ground as is being suggested by the current manager and many pundits; I think the situation has transcended technicalities and is a confidence issue.

There is a need for inspirational leadership from the Manager and a clear direction from the owners as I don't think it's good enough to say 'we're taking our time'; it's a full blown crisis now. Change is necessary before the damage is permanent as I think this season is already lost.

Make a change to inject some impetus now and sound out permanent Managerial potential over the remainder of the season. Some respite from this constant drift is due.

I think it's the right sentiment to be 'scared' we are out of control as a club.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43441.msg1244602#msg1244602 date=1294303454]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=43441.msg1244598#msg1244598 date=1294302822]
You can't remain compact any higher up the pitch away from home, [/quote]

what do you mean by that? yes you can.
you need competent central midfielders that provide the bridge between the defense and attack and fill gaps left by fullbacks especially if those fullbacks are the only source of width.

you need central defenders that can read the game and position themselves to reduce the risk of getting caught on the break.

you need strikers that put pressure on the opposition defenders early and often.

you need the entire team to work hard and in numbers to hunt for the ball when you lose it.

it is ABSOLUTELY possible to press and remain compact away from home.
the trouble is there are gaps between players that should tight together.
gaps between the two CB
gaps between the two CM
gaps between the two CF

easy pickings for pulling the team all over the place and exposing them.
[/quote]

Neil, if we had Roberto Carlos at left back, and Rio Ferdinand in the middle, then brilliant. We don't.

I know your ideals, I also know where you're coming from, but we need the players to be able to do that. You just said as much yourself in the first few sentences, it's no use throwing a criticism at us when we don't have the players to do it, questioning why we didn't is pointless, everyone knows why we can't do certain things, because the players aren't good enough!

We were set up under Rafa and Ged to defend tightly and have two banks of four, deep, when without the ball. Now Hodgson has tried to come in and do away with that completely, he's more or less thrown away our pressing game and that's why there are holes everywhere. Partly because the players are caught between what they're used to, and partly because Hodgson's tactics are amateurish and proven to be shite at the highest level. Last night no one closed down, and more significantly, no one closed down on the edge of the box, so the opposition were given free reign to run at us, any defence would be exposed like that, pushing higher up the pitch would have just given Blackburn more space to run into and expose.

You said the same things after Wigan away, where they constantly played the ball in behind us and ran into space. It doesn't work without the players and it doesn't work if you're not putting in the effort to win the first ball higher up the pitch, so pushing up achieves what? It just means that when the opposition play through our forwards and midfield, they then only have to play into space and stretch the back four to create an opening. We've seen it ALL season.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=43441.msg1244610#msg1244610 date=1294304019]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=43441.msg1244602#msg1244602 date=1294303454]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=43441.msg1244598#msg1244598 date=1294302822]
You can't remain compact any higher up the pitch away from home, [/quote]

what do you mean by that? yes you can.
you need competent central midfielders that provide the bridge between the defense and attack and fill gaps left by fullbacks especially if those fullbacks are the only source of width.

you need central defenders that can read the game and position themselves to reduce the risk of getting caught on the break.

you need strikers that put pressure on the opposition defenders early and often.

you need the entire team to work hard and in numbers to hunt for the ball when you lose it.

it is ABSOLUTELY possible to press and remain compact away from home.
the trouble is there are gaps between players that should tight together.
gaps between the two CB
gaps between the two CM
gaps between the two CF

easy pickings for pulling the team all over the place and exposing them.
[/quote]

Neil, if we had Roberto Carlos at left back, and Rio Ferdinand in the middle, then brilliant. We don't.

I know your ideals, I also know where you're coming from, but we need the players to be able to do that. You just said as much yourself in the first few sentences, it's not use throw a criticism at us when we don't have the players to do it, questioning why we didn't is pointless, everyone knows why we can't do certain things, because the players aren't good enough!

We were set up under Rafa and Ged to defend tightly and have two banks of four, deep, when without the ball. Now Hodgson has tried to come in and do away with that completely, he's more or less thrown away our pressing game and that's why there are holes everywhere. Partly because the players are caught between what they're used to, and partly because Hodgson's tactics are amateurish and proven to be shite at the highest level. Last night no one closed down, and more significantly, no one closed down on the edge of the box, so the opposition were given free reign to run at us, any defence would be exposed like that, pushing higher up the pitch would have just given Blackburn more space to run into and expose.

You said the same things after Wigan away, where they constantly played the ball in behind us and ran into space. It doesn't work without the players and it doesn't work if you're not putting in the effort to win the first ball higher up the pitch, so pushing up achieves what? It just means that when the opposition play through our forwards and midfield, they then only have to play into space and stretch the back four to create an opening. We've seen it ALL season.
[/quote]

I think we can be organised better NOW, without any new players. if you don't believe this why bother replace hodgson at all?

obviously we need better than skrtel in defense
better than lucas in midfield
better than n'gog in attack

but I still think right now they can be organised in such a way as to not look utterly shambolic.
I have to believe that if there is an interim manager he will at least see the flaws that should be patently obvious to anyone who has watched more than 5 minutes of football. if that isn't the case and it's all down to poor players then we may as well stick with roy until the summer because I can't see much money being spent in jan.

 

[mark1975]

You're missing the point completely.

What has being organised got to do with pushing higher up? Fuck all.

I just explained how we were organised under Rafa, without the ball we'd protect better, under Ged we'd have two banks of four, that's why defensively over most of the last decade we've been one of the best teams around. Organisation has nothing to do with pressing higher, nor does being compact have anything to do with pushing up the pitch, unless you're penning the opposition in with the players that can do that (ie one's that can maintain possession well). We should defend as a team and in numbers.

You can be compact while holding a higher line, but that's getting ahead of ourselves and it requires the right personnel, if you think we can do that with what we've got, you're having a laugh.

We need to get back to defending as a unit and in numbers, and we don't have the players anyway to carry out your 'vision' for how we should play.

 

[mark1975]

And for how poor Skrtel has been, it's missing the point again, the two fullbacks are constantly exposing the centre backs, so it doesn't matter who is in there. We've been carved open time and time again over the last 18 months and Carra, Skrtel, Soto and Agger have all been made to look poor at some point because they no longer have players like Abeloa, Riise/Aurelio and Mascherano around them. That was the fulcrum of our defensive play, alongside Reina, a cohesive group of six players with understanding and solidity, losing that has had a significant impact on all of our centre backs. And that's without mentioning big Sami!

 

[ILD]

Carragher can't come back quick enough. At least he can tell the other three where to stand. Skrtel is lost on his own and Johnson and Kuntchesky show poor positional sense.

I don't like N'gog and Torres together either. I would prefer to see Kuyt up there with him, or Cole/Gerrard off Torres in the formation that served us well two years ago.

 

[the_khl]

What I seriously don't get is Roy's moulding with the team all the time.

We played horrendously against Wolves.

Then he made some changes in personal and perhaps in tactics too (although I'd reckon they'd be pretty much the same, at home against teams we are expected to beat) and we enjoyed a rather good game against Bolton and won.

Then he changes back to the same personel that more or less all had crap games against Wolves and then we played even worse last night against Blackburn and lost in abysmal style.

 

[StevieM]

Roy only knows one way to play, one way to set up his team.

He's created numerous questions where he needed have, playing 4-4-2 when we blatantly don't have the players fir it is one.

There's a very good reason benitez didn't regularly play Gerrard in the centre of midfield. He doesn't have the discipline needed. It's no surprise that he's been at his best when he's given free reign to operate in areas that hurt other teams, particularly if you're asking lucas to plug the gaps.

Normally roy has the 'wide' players sit so fucking deep they're about as attack orientated as a sleeping turtle. Not to mention they go narrow every time.

Ah fuck it... Can't be doing with this anymore. The old duffer must go.

We've all know thus for weeks.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=43441.msg1244628#msg1244628 date=1294304803]
You're missing the point completely.

What has being organised got to do with pushing higher up? Fuck all.

I just explained how we were organised under Rafa, without the ball we'd protect better, under Ged we'd have two banks of four, that's why defensively over most of the last decade we've been one of the best teams around. Organisation has nothing to do with pressing higher, nor does being compact have anything to do with pushing up the pitch, unless you're penning the opposition in with the players that can do that (ie one's that can maintain possession well). We should defend as a team and in numbers.

You can be compact while holding a higher line, but that's getting ahead of ourselves and it requires the right personnel, if you think we can do that with what we've got, you're having a laugh.

We need to get back to defending as a unit and in numbers, and we don't have the players anyway to carry out your 'vision' for how we should play.
[/quote]

the reason I keep bringing up pushing up the pitch is torres, the person most likely to get a goal is completely isolated when he needs people in and around him. I agree that you don't need to hold a high line to remain compact, that's true but I'm talking about putting consistant pressure on the opposition so we can WIN GAMES.

as for the tactics gh utilised we were solid and organised and on the break we were excellent especially with the lethel owen but tactics were flawed at home as teams defended deep against us and expected us to break them down. I think it's interesting that using the tactic of drawing teams unto us and then hitting them on the counter attack saw owen saw more away goals than home goals (pretty sure this correct) whilst torres has scored far more home goals than away goals using the tactics rafa used and is now looking the shadow of the player he was under roy whose tactics are neither here nor there.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=43441.msg1244680#msg1244680 date=1294307337]

We played horrendously against Wolves.

[/quote]

I had the immense pleasure of watching that game on my New Year break in The Cotswolds. In 3-D.

To say that the idyll of the beautiful lakeside brasserie/ bar was somewhat shattered by my brother and I (the other two Bitter brothers didn't bother watching it) shouting "CUNT!" a lot is an understatement.

 

[Squiggles]

Fulham v Liverpool - Away Fans 04/04/09

18 months is a long time in football.

 

[RolandG]

Every new day with Roy at the helm is a long day.