Kuyt

[robinhood]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326605#msg326605 date=1185789183]No,I'm not using it as a compliment.

Intentionally or not,you're giving the impression that Kuyt will be crap because he lacks a good first touch and finishing.

I'm just saying that he started well, and (as Keni has rightfully pointed out) he began to falter somewhat.

With better attacking options, I think he can be very capable for us.[/quote]

When he started out, against West Ham, he hit a long and hopeful strike into the crowd. Immediately, he looked no better a striker of the ball than.. well.. Mascherano for example.

He has scored some powerful strikes from the six-yard box - and great.

I like the player.

All I said was I don't believe he's really a good enough finisher for our first team.

 

[rurikbird]

Here is a question for all of you. Who has the WORST first touch out of our 4 strikers?

Judging from last season, I think unfortunately it might be Kuyt. Obviously Torres is miles ahead of others in that department and Crouch definitely has better feel for the ball (with his feet, not his head). Last place is a toss-up between Voronin and Kuyt.

I didn't see much of Kuyt in the Dutch league so I can't judge for myself if people who say he exhibited better touch and technique in Holland are on to something or they just didn't notice his shortcomings because defenders allowed him more time on the ball. But I do know that sometimes strikers "stiffen up" when they are in an uncomfortable situation, such as when they go to a new league (just look at Sheva in Chelsea). So there is still a fair chance that Kuyt has significantly better first touch than he's showed last season.

I hope that's the case, because otherwise it means he can't be an effective in-the-box striker. They live and die by their first touch.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326611#msg326611 date=1185789373]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326605#msg326605 date=1185789183]No,I'm not using it as a compliment.

Intentionally or not,you're giving the impression that Kuyt will be crap because he lacks a good first touch and finishing.

I'm just saying that he started well, and (as Keni has rightfully pointed out) he began to falter somewhat.

With better attacking options, I think he can be very capable for us.[/quote]

When he started out, against West Ham, he hit a long and hopeful strike into the crowd. Immediately, he looked no better a striker of the ball than.. well.. Mascherano for example.

He has scored some powerful strikes from the six-yard box - and great.

I like the player.

All I said was I don't believe he's really a good enough finisher for our first team.
[/quote]

I think this season will show if he is or not. I reckon he can be.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326607#msg326607 date=1185789265]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326603#msg326603 date=1185789100]When do we EVER see any of our players running into the box to attack the ball?
[/quote]

Voronin showed a willingness to do that a few times thus far in pre-season...

Maybe he'll be able to contribute a bit more than you'd expect from a 4th choice striker. Fingers crossed anyways...
[/quote]

Hopefully, I think the main thing is that he doesn't look lightweight, he's looked willing to get stuck in from the off, and his finishing has been fairly composed.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326611#msg326611 date=1185789373]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326605#msg326605 date=1185789183]No,I'm not using it as a compliment.

Intentionally or not,you're giving the impression that Kuyt will be crap because he lacks a good first touch and finishing.

I'm just saying that he started well, and (as Keni has rightfully pointed out) he began to falter somewhat.

With better attacking options, I think he can be very capable for us.[/quote]

When he started out, against West Ham, he hit a long and hopeful strike into the crowd. Immediately, he looked no better a striker of the ball than.. well.. Mascherano for example.

He has scored some powerful strikes from the six-yard box - and great.

I like the player.

All I said was I don't believe he's really a good enough finisher for our first team.
[/quote]

Well,I'm sure we both hope you're wrong 🙂

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326617#msg326617 date=1185789619]Well,I'm sure we both hope you're wrong 🙂
[/quote]

Well, of course.

Maybe Torres and Kuyt will just hit fine goalscoring form and we'll win the league - that would be wonderful.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

For his 1st season playing in the EPL i thought he did well, and i expect a improvement on his goal tally for this coming season. Now that we have a player that compliments Kuyts style of play alongside him i really do feel excited that we finally have a strike force that can do the business over the course of the season.

I just hope that Rafa does not rest either of Torres or Kuyt to much in the early games, imo he needs to give these 2 a good chance to get used to each other as quickly as possible.

 

[Sunny]

I think someone has said this before. Kuyts main problem was him constantly dropping off the front line to come deep or wide. To become a out and out goal scorer you have to be in the box constantly. Perhaps with a better team around him he can be now afforded the time and space to get into the right postion.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326618#msg326618 date=1185789715]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326617#msg326617 date=1185789619]Well,I'm sure we both hope you're wrong 🙂
[/quote]

Well, of course.

Maybe Torres and Kuyt will just hit fine goalscoring form and we'll win the league - that would be wonderful.
[/quote]

It would,but there's no way robinhood would believe that. ;D

 

[Hansern]

Firstly I don't think we can use pre season mathces as an example of how the season will go. How we played against Portsmouth on friday means fuck all when we start the league in 2 weeks.

Secondly, Kuyt, he finished the season strongly after a dip here and there during the year. But at the end of the day, who can't be happy with 12 league goals and 14 in total in your first season. New country, new leauge, tactics, teammates, conditions, settle in period, bla bla bla. Some players use longer time then others.

To say his touch is poor is wrong, cause it itsn't and you can se that with the way he handles the ball, and I don't think his finishing is poor either. If he was just used as out an out striker I think his goaltally would have been much higher.

RVN was and is a luxury player, he does nothing besides lurking and waiting his chance. You don't see him tracking back slide tackling on his own half. And that understandable as he is one of the best in the world at it. But that is also the managers tactics.
Kuyt is a hard worker, but it's Benitez choice to make him drop so deep. When you have to sprint 50 meters every time you want to get into the box your concentraiton levels will drop, try it yourself.

I have no doubt he'll score more goals this season, and he could get 20 goals if he has the right luck, form and gets his confidence infront of goal going. Rafa should tell him to be more selfish though.

 

[manwithnoname]

Momo's game is not purely based on scoring goals son. He's a box to box midfielder. So lets keep it to that. He has improved a lot in passing the ball since he came here.

I don't really wish to get into a discussion about what a "box to box" midfielder actually is, but I would have thought that an element of creativity, ability to create goal-scoring chances, and the occasional goal would all be quite important.

None of which Brains has, so while I don't doubt that he can run from "box to box" all day, the fact that he can't do anything positive at all in or around the box that really counts would seem to be a bit of a draw-back.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=14248.msg326633#msg326633 date=1185790253]
who can't be happy with 12 league goals and 14 in total in your first season.

To say his touch is poor is wrong, cause it itsn't and you can se that with the way he handles the ball, and I don't think his finishing is poor either.

RVN was and is a luxury player,
[/quote]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

*sobs into keyboard*

 

[rurikbird]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=14248.msg326624#msg326624 date=1185789952]
I think someone has said this before. Kuyts main problem was him constantly dropping off the front line to come deep or wide. To become a out and out goal scorer you have to be in the box constantly. Perhaps with a better team around him he can be now afforded the time and space to get into the right postion.
[/quote]

As I said before, a striker with a bad first touch is useless in the box. And you are wrong about criticizing his positioning, it is by no means Kuyt's main problem, actually it's his biggest strength.

Look at our second goal against Barca, that pretty much sums up Kuyt's play last season. Great positioning and reading of the game to lose the defender, then a horrible first touch in a situation where a quality striker MUST score, but doesn't give up and and scraps out the chance for his teammates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akcqp7l97v4

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg326644#msg326644 date=1185790693]As I said before, a striker with a bad first touch is useless in the box. Positioning is not Kuyt's main problem, actually it's his biggest strength.

Look at our second goal against Barca, that pretty much sums up Kuyt's play last season. Great positioning and reading of the game to lose the defender, then a horrible first touch in a situation where a quality striker MUST score, but doesn't give up and and scraps out the chance for his teammates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akcqp7l97v4
[/quote]

*puts this man on his "good poster" list*

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=14248.msg326624#msg326624 date=1185789952]
I think someone has said this before. Kuyts main problem was him constantly dropping off the front line to come deep or wide. To become a out and out goal scorer you have to be in the box constantly. Perhaps with a better team around him he can be now afforded the time and space to get into the right postion.


[/quote]

I think that is a fair summary Sunny. What you won't get from Dirk is a lot of finesse, and to make the best of his attributes you have to have him in , or at least, around the box. What you will get is working hard and putting himself in where it hurts, I don't think Mark Hughes did his best work out wide or sitting deep.
I was expecting more from the lad last year, but I am never prepared to judge anyone on one season, unless they have absolutely Zero saving graces..

regards

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg326644#msg326644 date=1185790693]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=14248.msg326624#msg326624 date=1185789952]
I think someone has said this before. Kuyts main problem was him constantly dropping off the front line to come deep or wide. To become a out and out goal scorer you have to be in the box constantly. Perhaps with a better team around him he can be now afforded the time and space to get into the right postion.
[/quote]

As I said before, a striker with a bad first touch is useless in the box. And you are wrong about criticizing his positioning, it is by no means Kuyt's main problem, actually it's his biggest strength.

Look at our second goal against Barca, that pretty much sums up Kuyt's play last season. Great positioning and reading of the game to lose the defender, then a horrible first touch in a situation where a quality striker MUST score, but doesn't give up and and scraps out the chance for his teammates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akcqp7l97v4
[/quote]

I am not sure that should be interpreted as criticism of his positional sense, I interpreted it as the way we were playing , and he had to come deep or wide looking for the ball.

regards

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326646#msg326646 date=1185790760]
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg326644#msg326644 date=1185790693]As I said before, a striker with a bad first touch is useless in the box. Positioning is not Kuyt's main problem, actually it's his biggest strength.

Look at our second goal against Barca, that pretty much sums up Kuyt's play last season. Great positioning and reading of the game to lose the defender, then a horrible first touch in a situation where a quality striker MUST score, but doesn't give up and and scraps out the chance for his teammates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akcqp7l97v4
[/quote]

*puts this man on his "good poster" list*
[/quote]

*would rather be a 'thick deluded cunt' (TM robinhood)* ;D

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=14248.msg326624#msg326624 date=1185789952]
I think someone has said this before. Kuyts main problem was him constantly dropping off the front line to come deep or wide. To become a out and out goal scorer you have to be in the box constantly. Perhaps with a better team around him he can be now afforded the time and space to get into the right postion.


[/quote]

I think that's a pertinent point.

What's important to note in his exploits for Feyenoord is his starting position when he receives the ball. He was very often the highest up the pitch and always looked to get on the end of crosses and maintain forward momentum. That has not been the case here. For us, he's often going backwards when he receives the ball, as we are reluctant to commit men forward and have no overlapping wide men, therefore forcing him deep to collect the ball. This often means he's not where he should be we're looking for options in the final third.

Kuyt is a team player and as such will do whatever is asked of him, without complaint. Perhaps, it could be argued, to his detriment. If nothing else, the compilations from his time at Feyenoord show that he does not voluntarily avoid the penalty area and that, when afforded the luxury, he will happily play further up the pitch. Hopefully Rafa allows him and, more importantly, encourages him to do that this season.

 

[Hansern]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326641#msg326641 date=1185790636]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=14248.msg326633#msg326633 date=1185790253]
who can't be happy with 12 league goals and 14 in total in your first season.

To say his touch is poor is wrong, cause it itsn't and you can se that with the way he handles the ball, and I don't think his finishing is poor either.

RVN was and is a luxury player,
[/quote]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

*sobs into keyboard*
[/quote]

Great, cut my sentance in half, that way I really look like a cunt with the RVN comment. Read the whole thing.

 

[spider-Neil]

I have had a big shock this pre season
I though kuyt would be the furthest forward but he is still dropping deep and pulling wide to pick up th ball. what's the matter dirk don't trust your team mates to give you decent service?

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=14248.msg326658#msg326658 date=1185791522]
I have had a big shock this pre season
I though kuyt would be the furthest forward but he is still dropping deep and pulling wide to pick up th ball. what's the matter dirk don't trust your team mates to give you decent service?


[/quote]

I don't think he does it voluntarily.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=14248.msg326657#msg326657 date=1185791506]Great, cut my sentance in half, that way I really look like a cunt with the RVN comment. Read the whole thing.
[/quote]

No matter how much you attempt to justify those statements, I will continue to be astonished by them.

RVN - a luxury player?

The game is ABOUT goals. A world-class finisher is only a luxury in the best sense of the word.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=14248.msg326658#msg326658 date=1185791522]
I though kuyt would be the furthest forward but he is still dropping deep [/quote]

And yet I suggested this would happen.

 

[Hansern]

[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326661#msg326661 date=1185791726]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=14248.msg326657#msg326657 date=1185791506]Great, cut my sentance in half, that way I really look like a cunt with the RVN comment. Read the whole thing.
[/quote]

No matter how much you attempt to justify those statements, I will continue to be astonished by them.

RVN - a luxury player?

The game is ABOUT goals. A world-class finisher is only a luxury in the best sense of the word.
[/quote]


Jeeezzesss, I said he's one of the best stikers in the world, in his role. But if you compare his role against Kuyts he doesn't have to do all the hard work Kuyt does. His main focus is to score goals, Kuyt is the first defender, link man, he plays much deeper.

If Kuyt was given RVN freedom, he would have scored a lot more goals. Thats what I ment.

RVN is one of the best finishers in the game, thats obvious. I ment luxury in TEAM ROLE. TACTICS.

 

[keniget]

Why do people consider RVN such a luxury in terms of tactics?

It's not as though the ONLY time he touches the ball is to sidefoot it into the net. The man can actually play football ya'know.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=14248.msg326666#msg326666 date=1185792214]Jeeezzesss, I said he's one of the best stikers in the world, in his role. But if you compare his role against Kuyts he doesn't have to do all the hard work Kuyt does. His main focus is to score goals, Kuyt is the first defender, link man, he plays much deeper.

If Kuyt was given RVN freedom, he would have scored a lot more goals. Thats what I ment.

RVN is one of the best finishers in the game, thats obvious. I ment luxury in TEAM ROLE. TACTICS.
[/quote]

I just don't really buy all this sort of stuff.

So Kuyt can't finish because he's shackled by tactics? I doubt it. It's because he isn't a great finisher.

And any tactics that see goalscorers as a luxury are too "clever" for their own good.

 

[Hansern]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326670#msg326670 date=1185792358]
Why do people consider RVN such a luxury in terms of tactics?

It's not as though the ONLY time he touches the ball is to sidefoot it into the net. The man can actually play football ya'know.
[/quote]

RVN is a great footballer, but he spends most of his time in the box. And with every reason of course. I think he scored 1 goal outside the box in his entire Manure career. Kuyt is everywhere else but the box, but this is Rafas tactics of course.

Let's just hope that Torres or Kuyt will be play shoulder to shoulder with the defender, and be much higher up the pitch. Voronin also seems good at that, making smart runs and times the pretty good aswell.

 

[HC]

Voronin will score more league goals than Kuyt in relative terms to the amount of games played. I'm pretty sure that Voronin will get quite a lot of games too.

Rafa doesn't play Kuyt in a position which allows him to score enough goals in a season, If you had a player like Henry in that position, yeah sure ,he'd probably get alot nearer 20, but Kuyt never will in that position.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Hansern link=topic=14248.msg326676#msg326676 date=1185792803]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326670#msg326670 date=1185792358]
Why do people consider RVN such a luxury in terms of tactics?

It's not as though the ONLY time he touches the ball is to sidefoot it into the net. The man can actually play football ya'know.
[/quote]

RVN is a great footballer, but he spends most of his time in the box. And with every reason of course. I think he scored 1 goal outside the box in his entire Manure career. Kuyt is everywhere else but the box, but this is Rafas tactics of course.

Let's just hope that Torres or Kuyt will be play shoulder to shoulder with the defender, and be much higher up the pitch. Voronin also seems good at that, making smart runs and times the pretty good aswell.
[/quote]

I know what you're saying, but I don't think Rafa would necessarily be against have such a player.

Capello also employed a rather defensive system at Madrid and RVN was still able to thrive.

 

[Mors]

I think Torres/Crouch/Kuyt will all score 15 goals each next season. But not much more. Wouldn't expect any of them to do 20.


Mors