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Kuyt

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[quote author=Glock link=topic=14248.msg326546#msg326546 date=1185787073]

You are getting senile if you think he has not improve since he join us. The only thing now has to improve is his shooting. That's all.
[/quote]

I didn't say he hasn't improved. I said his passing hasn't. Which it hasn't. His passing last year was woeful. Let's wait and see this season how he plays shall we? But up to this season his passing and shooting have not been up to scratch. He has great energy and enthusiasm and the ability to break up the opponents midfield but as I've said he has to improve on the creative side of his game.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326549#msg326549 date=1185787153]
[quote author=Grungefuttock link=topic=14248.msg326548#msg326548 date=1185787114]We don't YET play that system but it's what Rafa's working towards.
[/quote]

What system?
[/quote]

Free-flowing, pulling defenders around, as you yourself said - the Valencia way, in fact, which made mugs of us when they came to Anfield, gave us a lesson in football and earned Rafa his next job, not to mention winning two La Liga titles out of three in Rafa's time, plus a European pot into the bargain.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326542#msg326542 date=1185786987]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg326537#msg326537 date=1185786811]I watched him for three years at Feyenoord. You obviously didn't. He was a very good striker of the ball in his time for them; you don't just lose that in a season. If I was judging him based on his time with us, I'd probably agree with you. However, I'm not, so I don't.
[/quote]

Well, I guess I'm not in a postion to argue with that, but I believe you're misguided, and it was just crap defending and things that made it easy for him to score.

Some players have compilation videos full of classy goals and finishes. Kuyt isn't one of those players. And it shows.
[/quote]

More nonsense from you. Crap defending, poor league, shit goalie blah blah fucking blah. He has scored 14 goals in his first season here playing in a slightly different position that he used to at Feyenoord. You should know that by now. Plus he had more responsibilities not only scoring goals last season. Maybe it will change this season as Rafael have enough players to do what he did last season. We will see a different player in Kuyt this season for sure.
 
Good thread Mark - I think we needed to have this discussion (again).

I think I'm more inclined to side with Robin on this one, although my views aren't as extreme.

Kuyt obviously ticks all the rght boxes when it comes to Rafa's two most important attributes in a player: the 'right' mentality and game intelligence. The problem is, he lacks the finesse and skill required to complement them. In the Dutch league, despite the presence of many technically gifted players, Kuyt was able to mask these flaws because you get so much space and the defending is some of the worst around. In the last game (or the one before that), Kuyt turned with the ball in the opponents half - the commentator said something along the lines of "nice turn by Kuyt", but in reality, he'd taken the ball about 1-2 metres back and it took him like 2 seconds before he was able to look up and forward again to pick out a pass. This, in the context of the Premiership, is not going to cut it.

I like Kuyt and would like to see him do well. I don't think there is anyone that feels differently, however unless we see a marked improvement both in terms of the technical ability and finishing this term, I think he should be move down the pecking order slightly to 3rd choice.
 
I think like most, I don't wanna be critical of Dirk, cos he has all the traits you want to in a player. But he isn't 'That' clinical striker that opposition defences will look at and fear.

He just isn't.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326552#msg326552 date=1185787257]
Morientes missed sitter after sitter for us though mate, and that's not down to the rough and tumble. He proved that he just wasn't a very good finisher in English football, probably partly due to less time on the ball. There's no reason why the same can't similarly be said of Kuyt, I really couldn't care what he did in Holland because it counts for nothing in England.
[/quote]

I think we actually agree - you said "less time on the ball", I said "rough and tumble".

I remember him missing should-be sitters, time and time again, and it always appeared to me that is was because he was put off by physical contact.

He always looked like he was protecting his body, not over-extending, and trying to avoid taking knocks.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326542#msg326542 date=1185786987]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg326537#msg326537 date=1185786811]I watched him for three years at Feyenoord. You obviously didn't. He was a very good striker of the ball in his time for them; you don't just lose that in a season. If I was judging him based on his time with us, I'd probably agree with you. However, I'm not, so I don't.
[/quote]

Well, I guess I'm not in a postion to argue with that, but I believe you're misguided, and it was just crap defending and things that made it easy for him to score.

Some players have compilation videos full of classy goals and finishes. Kuyt isn't one of those players. And it shows.
[/quote]

The same crap defending and things which allowed RVN and Kezman to excel?

Really,this discussion is based on supposition and opinion.

Why is there a need to talk about compilation videos for Kuyt?

HOw many more goals than Morientes (whom you do regard as a good finisher) did Kuyt score in his first season ?

The fact is,he can score goals.Both in Holland and here.

I would admit that he needs to work on his touch and finishing,which is nowhere near good enough.BUT he is a goal-scorer.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326562#msg326562 date=1185787504]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326552#msg326552 date=1185787257]
Morientes missed sitter after sitter for us though mate, and that's not down to the rough and tumble. He proved that he just wasn't a very good finisher in English football, probably partly due to less time on the ball. There's no reason why the same can't similarly be said of Kuyt, I really couldn't care what he did in Holland because it counts for nothing in England.
[/quote]

I think we actually agree - you said "less time on the ball", I said "rough and tumble".

I remember him missing should-be sitters, time and time again, and it always appeared to me that is was because he was put off by physical contact.

He always looked like he was protecting his body, not over-extending, and trying to avoid taking knocks.
[/quote]

Yeah there's some truth in all that. I'm quite pleased with Kuyt's record last season, but I don't think it masks the fact that he's not that great a finisher infront of goal. He might hit the ball cleanly enough, but what's the point if there's little accuracy?
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326565#msg326565 date=1185787583]I would admit that he needs to work on his touch and finishing,which is nowhere near good enough.
[/quote]

I'm confused. That's my argument.
 
[quote author=Grungefuttock link=topic=14248.msg326557#msg326557 date=1185787364]Free-flowing, pulling defenders around, as you yourself said - the Valencia way, in fact, which made mugs of us when they came to Anfield, gave us a lesson in football and earned Rafa his next job, not to mention winning two La Liga titles out of three in Rafa's time, plus a European pot into the bargain.
[/quote]

Is that an accurate description of his Valencia side?

Arsenal, Utd, Barca - these teams all currently play free-flowing football.

We play a rigid, possession game, where the strikers are almost always the players to be taking the chances, and these chances are never in acres of space, because our build-up play is neither clever nor decisive enough to set up the pacy counter-attacks that you see at these other clubs. Consequently, I believe we need a top quality finisher just to put some more of the chances we do create away.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326567#msg326567 date=1185787679]
Did you just use Kezman as an example Avvy?
[/quote]

I did.

I agree that whatever performance he rendered in Holland cannot be used as gospel, because if we did, we;d have to explain why RVN was incredible and Kezman was shit.

My point is that in his first season in ENGLAND, Kuyt was not poor,and he did score goals.

But we're now suggesting that he is not the goal-scorer we need.

There's too much opinion and supposition here based on his shit performances in pre-season.

And I think he can forge a good partnership with our newer attacking options.

I just don't see why we're even talking about moving him down the pecking order just yet.
 
if rafa sold kuyt and crouch I wouldn't bat an eyelid sad but true.

I'll also add 13M would prise anelka from bolton and I'd rather him than all but torres of our strikers.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326574#msg326574 date=1185787980]
we;d have to explain why RVN was incredible and Kezman was shit.[/quote]

You can see by the goals that RVN has scored that he's a very very special finisher.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326568#msg326568 date=1185787716]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326565#msg326565 date=1185787583]I would admit that he needs to work on his touch and finishing,which is nowhere near good enough.
[/quote]

I'm confused. That's my argument.
[/quote]

It is, but you're using that as a reason to criticise.

He does not have a great first touch, and his finishing is not as good as it should be.But I think he has a great footballing brain,and the addition of pace in our attack through Torres, Voronin (crazy,i know) and Babel will see Kuyt turn into a quality striker who will get more than his fair share of goals.
 
I cant really make a final judgement till after this season, but I was not really impressed with him this year, as mentioned above his first touch and finishing leave a lot to be desired. Although he is a hard worker which we appreciate, i defy anyone on here who'd would'nt rather have a player who is a lazy shite but scores 20 a season via poaching than a work horse who scores 12.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326574#msg326574 date=1185787980]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326567#msg326567 date=1185787679]
Did you just use Kezman as an example Avvy?
[/quote]

I did.

I agree that whatever performance he rendered in Holland cannot be used as gospel, because if we did, we;d have to explain why RVN was incredible and Kezman was shit.

My point is that in his first season in ENGLAND, Kuyt was not poor,and he did score goals.

But we're now suggesting that he is not the goal-scorer we need.

There's too much opinion and supposition here based on his shit performances in pre-season.

And I think he can forge a good partnership with our newer attacking options.

I just don't see why we're even talking about moving him down the pecking order just yet.
[/quote]

Umm, who is basing their opinion solely on pre-season games?

Kuyt scored a few goals last season, yeah. He started off brightly, sure. He was also PAINFULLY average for large portions of the season.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326582#msg326582 date=1185788224]It is, but you're using that as a reason to criticise.[/quote]

And what? You're using it as a complement?
 
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=14248.msg326583#msg326583 date=1185788231]
I cant really make a final judgement till after this season, but I was not really impressed with him this year, as mentioned above his first touch and finishing leave a lot to be desired. Although he is a hard worker which we appreciate, i defy anyone on here who'd would'nt rather have a player who is a lazy shite but scores 20 a season via poaching than a work horse who scores 12.
[/quote]

Quite right, Peatch.

The thing is, why do we need so much workmanship? We don't lack possession, or even chances.

What we lack is talented play in the final third.

It does my nut.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326542#msg326542 date=1185786987]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg326537#msg326537 date=1185786811]I watched him for three years at Feyenoord. You obviously didn't. He was a very good striker of the ball in his time for them; you don't just lose that in a season. If I was judging him based on his time with us, I'd probably agree with you. However, I'm not, so I don't.
[/quote]

Well, I guess I'm not in a postion to argue with that, but I believe you're misguided, and it was just crap defending and things that made it easy for him to score.

Some players have compilation videos full of classy goals and finishes. Kuyt isn't one of those players. And it shows.
[/quote]

Firstly, time and space differ from league to league but basic technique is a constant. I believe his wayward shooting last season had a lot more to do with what was going on in his head than it did with his striking ability.

And secondly, video compilations prove the best part of fuck all but hey, I'll humour you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPmMldGJ530

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBoe9o28UP8

There's nothing wrong with his finishing in there....

Of course the defending was relatively shite in Holland. Of course he'll have less opportunities over here. That said, neither of these two points should negate his fundamental ability to strike a ball.

He needs to show the composure here that he had in Holland. Whether the stage is too big for him to do that remains to be seen. He's had his bedding in season now so I'll admit he needs to start performing, and quickly, but I certainly haven't given up on him yet.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326585#msg326585 date=1185788245]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326574#msg326574 date=1185787980]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326567#msg326567 date=1185787679]
Did you just use Kezman as an example Avvy?
[/quote]

I did.

I agree that whatever performance he rendered in Holland cannot be used as gospel, because if we did, we;d have to explain why RVN was incredible and Kezman was shit.

My point is that in his first season in ENGLAND, Kuyt was not poor,and he did score goals.

But we're now suggesting that he is not the goal-scorer we need.

There's too much opinion and supposition here based on his shit performances in pre-season.

And I think he can forge a good partnership with our newer attacking options.

I just don't see why we're even talking about moving him down the pecking order just yet.
[/quote]

Umm, who is basing their opinion solely on pre-season games?

Kuyt scored a few goals last season, yeah. He started off brightly, sure. He was also PAINFULLY average for large portions of the season.
[/quote]

Granted.

I do feel however, that a lot of that was also due to tactics and the team selections.

Whilst he may not have a good first touch, I still think he can be a very capable striker for us.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326588#msg326588 date=1185788387]
[quote author=Peatcheo link=topic=14248.msg326583#msg326583 date=1185788231]
I cant really make a final judgement till after this season, but I was not really impressed with him this year, as mentioned above his first touch and finishing leave a lot to be desired. Although he is a hard worker which we appreciate, i defy anyone on here who'd would'nt rather have a player who is a lazy shite but scores 20 a season via poaching than a work horse who scores 12.
[/quote]

Quite right, Peatch.

The thing is, why do we need so much workmanship? We don't lack possession, or even chances.

What we lack is talented play in the final third.

It does my nut.
[/quote]

A couple of times when we broke forward on Friday there was not one single player in the box, so who ever broke on the flanks (usually Pennant or Kuyt) would turn back again, and the momentum would be lost. It's ridiculous how little we commit men forward.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg326595#msg326595 date=1185788735]
And secondly, video compilations prove the best part of fuck all but hey[/quote]

It's a fashionable thing to say, and in some respects it's absolutely true.

But crap finishers won't have videos that make them look like great finishers, just because if you haven't got it in your locker, then you can't do it.

I'll watch those later, because I'm in work and my access is restricted.

Thanks.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326596#msg326596 date=1185788812]
Granted.

I do feel however, that a lot of that was also due to tactics and the team selections.

Whilst he may not have a good first touch, I still think he can be a very capable striker for us.
[/quote]

What do you mean by "very capable"?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326598#msg326598 date=1185788848]
A couple of times when we broke forward on Friday there was not one single player in the box, so who ever broke on the flanks (usually Pennant or Kuyt) would turn back again, and the momentum would be lost. It's ridiculous how little we commit men forward.
[/quote]

Well, they couldn't just be waiting in the box, they'd be offside.

I think it varies, quite often we've got loads of players forward, and we just can't score for shit.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326602#msg326602 date=1185788983]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326598#msg326598 date=1185788848]
A couple of times when we broke forward on Friday there was not one single player in the box, so who ever broke on the flanks (usually Pennant or Kuyt) would turn back again, and the momentum would be lost. It's ridiculous how little we commit men forward.
[/quote]

Well, they couldn't just be waiting in the box, they'd be offside.

I think it varies, quite often we've got loads of players forward, and we just can't score for shit.
[/quote]

I mean when there were bodies back in their defense, Kuyt/Pennant/whoever would be in a good position to put a ball into the box, but noone was there. When do we EVER see any of our players running into the box to attack the ball?
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg326587#msg326587 date=1185788285]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326582#msg326582 date=1185788224]It is, but you're using that as a reason to criticise.[/quote]

And what? You're using it as a complement?
[/quote]

No,I'm not using it as a compliment.

Intentionally or not,you're giving the impression that Kuyt will be crap because he lacks a good first touch and finishing.

I'm just saying that he started well, and (as Keni has rightfully pointed out) he began to falter somewhat.

With better attacking options, I think he can be very capable for us.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326603#msg326603 date=1185789100]
I mean when there were bodies back in their defense, Kuyt/Pennant/whoever would be in a good position to put a ball into the box, but noone was there. When do we EVER see any of our players running into the box to attack the ball?
[/quote]

Torres was on the shoulder of the defender against Portsmouth, in the second half. He had about four chances from the sorts of situations you are describing. And two of them were real counter-attack situations.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326603#msg326603 date=1185789100]When do we EVER see any of our players running into the box to attack the ball?
[/quote]

Voronin showed a willingness to do that a few times thus far in pre-season...

Maybe he'll be able to contribute a bit more than you'd expect from a 4th choice striker. Fingers crossed anyways...
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=14248.msg326601#msg326601 date=1185788939]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=14248.msg326596#msg326596 date=1185788812]
Granted.

I do feel however, that a lot of that was also due to tactics and the team selections.

Whilst he may not have a good first touch, I still think he can be a very capable striker for us.
[/quote]

What do you mean by "very capable"?
[/quote]

18 goals.
 
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