Interesting 2 cents from Irish pundits

[ILD]

[quote author=Cerberus link=topic=41305.msg1149469#msg1149469 date=1281095045]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149455#msg1149455 date=1281094175]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.

[/quote]

I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]

Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[/quote]


Was it not busquets that was substituted for fabregas in the final? Who was instrumental in Spain getting the winner. Before the substitution the game was a stalemate.
[/quote]

So Busquets was holding them back was he? Cesc could have came on for anyone and still made that impact. Alonso and Villa also came off in that game if i'm not mistaken. Look, I would love two players capable of attacking in the middle but I would at least want one of them to defend. Masher is probably best in the world as DM. I wouldn't get rid just to buy another player who can attack better. If we played Gerrard and Aqua in there, we would have two players who are quality on the ball. However, the onus would be on Gerrard to act as the defensive minded one out of the pair. This would eliminate his goal threat.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=41305.msg1149478#msg1149478 date=1281095591]
Fabregas came on for Alonso in the final.
[/quote]

Thanks Slug, couldn't be bothered researching it.

 

[Cerberus]

I wasn't sure. Regardless, a "defensive" minded midfielder was replaced and the game was opened up. I also felt Busquets was peripheral in most of Spain's games in the world cup.
I do believe we need someone who has bite in the tackle and will track back and back up the defence. A player in the mould of Viera or Keane would be ace, they just don't come along very often.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41305.msg1149466#msg1149466 date=1281094876]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41305.msg1149448#msg1149448 date=1281093828]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.

[/quote]

I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]

Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[/quote]

To be fair though. They can play quite a bit, as can Fletcher (though less so).

Mascher is very specialised in what he does. Whilst I think that teams need a more defensive minded centre midfield player, I don't think all teams necessarily need a Mascherano.

I think we'd be better served with an Essien type player next to Gerrard. Not as good defensively as Mascher, but adds a fair bit more going forward especially with passing.

In very simple terms I view..
Mascher like 10/10 defensively and a 3/10 offensively. Essien a 8/10 defensively, 7/10 offensively. Busquets (D:7/10, O:6.5/10). Xabi (D:7/10 O: 7.5/10)

United have won the league in recent seasons with players who i'd rate as:

Carrick (D:6/10, O:7/10)
Scholes (D:5/10, O: 8.5/10)
Anderson (D:5/10, O:7/10)
Fletcher (D:8/10, O:6/10)

I think the Makeleles' and Mascheranos' are an outdated breed of players. Not essential in the sense that you want healthy balance in the midfield with players offering something going both ways.
[/quote]I think that kind of sums up my feelings. If mascherano where to stay then terrific, but I hope we would play aquilani or gerrard in there and not Lucas. But in broad terms I'd rather have two players who are very good at attacking AND defending than two who are brilliant at one thing only.
That's precisely why I would prefer a cambiasso or de Rossi to an out and out spoiler.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him. He didn't have this last season and it hurt us. And it's a shame he wants to leave, because he'd fit much better into a side containing Cole, Gerrard, Aquilani, etc. Last year we needed a more all-rounded player in the middle to compensate for Xabi's departure and Aquilani's injuries. This year I'm not so sure.

But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
[/quote]

Exactly, Lucas isn't exactly a perfect foil for him. At times Masher even took the onus upon himself to springboard attacks. This is not where his qualities lie.
People are glamouring for a more rounded midfielder to replace Masher. I would like to see this list? We need a player who can protect the back four and help in the final third. Essien is that 'dream' player. Poulsen seems to be more suited to our paltry budget. Perhaps Defour but can he tackle and protect like Masher?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149493#msg1149493 date=1281096454]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him. He didn't have this last season and it hurt us. And it's a shame he wants to leave, because he'd fit much better into a side containing Cole, Gerrard, Aquilani, etc. Last year we needed a more all-rounded player in the middle to compensate for Xabi's departure and Aquilani's injuries. This year I'm not so sure.

But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
[/quote]

Exactly, Lucas isn't exactly a perfect foil for him. At times Masher even took the onus upon himself to springboard attacks. This is not where his qualities lie.
People are glamouring for a more rounded midfielder to replace Masher. I would like to see this list? We need a player who can protect the back four and help in the final third. Essien is that 'dream' player. Poulsen seems to be more suited to our paltry budget. Perhaps Defour but can he tackle and protect like Masher?
[/quote]nobody is clamouring for any such thing David. With the exception of Fox and two dimwit pundits every other person in the world would prefer us to keep Mascherano.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Cerberus link=topic=41305.msg1149491#msg1149491 date=1281096371]
I wasn't sure. Regardless, a "defensive" minded midfielder was replaced and the game was opened up. I also felt Busquets was peripheral in most of Spain's games in the world cup.
I do believe we need someone who has bite in the tackle and will track back and back up the defence. A player in the mould of Viera or Keane would be ace, they just don't come along very often.
[/quote]

The game also opened as it was extra time and players we're tired. Both teams pushed for the win. Cesc obviously made a difference, he is a great player, but he could just have easily replaced Capedevilla and made a similiar impression. It wasn't just because they removed a defensive minded player that the game opened up.

We do need someone who has bite in the tackle (Masher), will track back (Masher) and back up the defence (Masher) but many want this player also to be comfortable in attacking thirds. It is hard to find this player and even harder with the budget we have to adhere to.

I would be happy for Masher + Player X beside him. Player X can be a new signing, Gerrad or Aqualani. Just not Lucas.

 

[Cerberus]

[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149485#msg1149485 date=1281096112]
[quote author=Cerberus link=topic=41305.msg1149469#msg1149469 date=1281095045]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149455#msg1149455 date=1281094175]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.

[/quote]

I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]

Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[/quote]


Was it not busquets that was substituted for fabregas in the final? Who was instrumental in Spain getting the winner. Before the substitution the game was a stalemate.
[/quote]

So Busquets was holding them back was he? Cesc could have came on for anyone and still made that impact. Alonso and Villa also came off in that game if i'm not mistaken. Look, I would love two players capable of attacking in the middle but I would at least want one of them to defend. Masher is probably best in the world as DM. I wouldn't get rid just to buy another player who can attack better. If we played Gerrard and Aqua in there, we would have two players who are quality on the ball. However, the onus would be on Gerrard to act as the defensive minded one out of the pair. This would eliminate his goal threat.


[/quote]

In my opinion, yes he was.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him.[/quote]

the bottom line is with mash and lucas in the middle of the park there was zero creativity last season, can you blame lucas 100% for that, he was in a partnership after all? when mash saw the lack of chances being created, did he shrug his shoulders and say 'not my problem, I'm doing MY job' ? lucas is what he is, a mediocre player but he was partnered with someone who was happy to take no responisible to create chances either even though technically 'creativity' doesn't come under the job description of a defensive midfielder.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149498#msg1149498 date=1281096674]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149493#msg1149493 date=1281096454]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him. He didn't have this last season and it hurt us. And it's a shame he wants to leave, because he'd fit much better into a side containing Cole, Gerrard, Aquilani, etc. Last year we needed a more all-rounded player in the middle to compensate for Xabi's departure and Aquilani's injuries. This year I'm not so sure.

But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
[/quote]

Exactly, Lucas isn't exactly a perfect foil for him. At times Masher even took the onus upon himself to springboard attacks. This is not where his qualities lie.
People are glamouring for a more rounded midfielder to replace Masher. I would like to see this list? We need a player who can protect the back four and help in the final third. Essien is that 'dream' player. Poulsen seems to be more suited to our paltry budget. Perhaps Defour but can he tackle and protect like Masher?
[/quote]nobody is clamouring for any such thing David. With the exception of Fox and two dimwit pundits every other person in the world would prefer us to keep Mascherano.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I thought there was more on the 'Masher Out' bandwagon.

I think we can all agree that Masher + 1 in the midfield in adequate.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41305.msg1149503#msg1149503 date=1281096893]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him.[/quote]

the bottom line is with mash and lucas in the middle of the park there was zero creativity last season, can you blame lucas 100% for that, he was in a partnership after all? when mash saw the lack of chances being created, did he shrug his shoulders and say 'not my problem, I'm doing MY job' ? lucas is what he is, a mediocre player but he was partnered with someone who was happy to take no responisible to create chances either even though technically 'creativity' doesn't come under the job description of a defensive midfielder.
[/quote]

What?

Masher does one aspect of the game brilliantly. Lucas does nothing brilliantly. In fact he does nothing good.

So it's obvious which player you build your midfield around.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Cerberus link=topic=41305.msg1149501#msg1149501 date=1281096841]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149485#msg1149485 date=1281096112]
[quote author=Cerberus link=topic=41305.msg1149469#msg1149469 date=1281095045]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149455#msg1149455 date=1281094175]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.

[/quote]

I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]

Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[/quote]


Was it not busquets that was substituted for fabregas in the final? Who was instrumental in Spain getting the winner. Before the substitution the game was a stalemate.
[/quote]

So Busquets was holding them back was he? Cesc could have came on for anyone and still made that impact. Alonso and Villa also came off in that game if i'm not mistaken. Look, I would love two players capable of attacking in the middle but I would at least want one of them to defend. Masher is probably best in the world as DM. I wouldn't get rid just to buy another player who can attack better. If we played Gerrard and Aqua in there, we would have two players who are quality on the ball. However, the onus would be on Gerrard to act as the defensive minded one out of the pair. This would eliminate his goal threat.


[/quote]

In my opinion, yes he was.
[/quote]

Did the game change just because Busquets came off? Maybe it had something to do with the game being in extra time and player's becoming tired. Cesc came on for Alonso anyway. At times I felt they didn't need Busquets during the world cup but that would only have forced Alonso to take up a more defensive role. Either way they would have deployed a DM. On a side note Senna played there as a DM in the Euro's.

 

[Khalido]

Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41305.msg1149503#msg1149503 date=1281096893]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him.[/quote]

the bottom line is with mash and lucas in the middle of the park there was zero creativity last season, can you blame lucas 100% for that, he was in a partnership after all? when mash saw the lack of chances being created, did he shrug his shoulders and say 'not my problem, I'm doing MY job' ? lucas is what he is, a mediocre player but he was partnered with someone who was happy to take no responisible to create chances either even though technically 'creativity' doesn't come under the job description of a defensive midfielder.
[/quote]

At times due to frustration, Masher took it upon himself to try set up attacks. Lucas stood beside him and made rare bursts into the box. It wasn't until the last few games of the season that we saw Lucas advance to the final third. Aqualani had more goals and assits in 9 games than Lucas has in over 30.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149512#msg1149512 date=1281097207]
Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.
[/quote]

They also had a strong back four and excellent attacking talent. That was a fine team.

 

[Fox]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149498#msg1149498 date=1281096674]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149493#msg1149493 date=1281096454]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him. He didn't have this last season and it hurt us. And it's a shame he wants to leave, because he'd fit much better into a side containing Cole, Gerrard, Aquilani, etc. Last year we needed a more all-rounded player in the middle to compensate for Xabi's departure and Aquilani's injuries. This year I'm not so sure.

But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
[/quote]

Exactly, Lucas isn't exactly a perfect foil for him. At times Masher even took the onus upon himself to springboard attacks. This is not where his qualities lie.
People are glamouring for a more rounded midfielder to replace Masher. I would like to see this list? We need a player who can protect the back four and help in the final third. Essien is that 'dream' player. Poulsen seems to be more suited to our paltry budget. Perhaps Defour but can he tackle and protect like Masher?
[/quote]nobody is clamouring for any such thing David. With the exception of Fox and two dimwit pundits every other person in the world would prefer us to keep Mascherano.
[/quote]

To be fair oncey I stated it would be good to sell Masher to get the money as we were skint a month ago. Now if we suddenly have a big pot of gold then keep him if he wants to stay but maybe Roy can teach him how to play forward as well. Maybe with a more attacking manager week in week out he could offer more, Rafa was the worst coach possible to get him to go forward more.

If Masher offers only DM cover for centre backs then I don't want him. I want my team to have creativity not limited to a few players, all 6 midfield and strikers should be capable of scoring, creating and passing forward.

Busquests is twice the passer Masher is.

 

[Fox]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149498#msg1149498 date=1281096674]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149493#msg1149493 date=1281096454]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41305.msg1149484#msg1149484 date=1281096102]
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him. He didn't have this last season and it hurt us. And it's a shame he wants to leave, because he'd fit much better into a side containing Cole, Gerrard, Aquilani, etc. Last year we needed a more all-rounded player in the middle to compensate for Xabi's departure and Aquilani's injuries. This year I'm not so sure.

But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
[/quote]

Exactly, Lucas isn't exactly a perfect foil for him. At times Masher even took the onus upon himself to springboard attacks. This is not where his qualities lie.
People are glamouring for a more rounded midfielder to replace Masher. I would like to see this list? We need a player who can protect the back four and help in the final third. Essien is that 'dream' player. Poulsen seems to be more suited to our paltry budget. Perhaps Defour but can he tackle and protect like Masher?
[/quote]nobody is clamouring for any such thing David. With the exception of Fox and two dimwit pundits every other person in the world would prefer us to keep Mascherano.
[/quote]

To be fair oncey I stated it would be good to sell Masher to get the money as we were skint a month ago. Now if we suddenly have a big pot of gold then keep him if he wants to stay but maybe Roy can teach him how to play forward as well. Maybe with a more attacking manager week in week out he could offer more, Rafa was the worst coach possible to get him to go forward more.

If Masher offers only DM cover for centre backs then I don't want him. I want my team to have creativity not limited to a few players, all 6 midfield and strikers should be capable of scoring, creating and passing forward even if one of them is slightly more defensive minded

Busquests is twice the passer Masher is.

 

[Cerberus]

[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149512#msg1149512 date=1281097207]
Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.
[/quote]

Very few players have alonso-esque passing. Neither of them sat in front of of the back four in the anchor position either.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149512#msg1149512 date=1281097207]
Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.
[/quote]

Viera had a lot of attacking involvement. He was far more often in the opposition box than any of our CMs bar Gerrard have been during the whole of Houlliers and Rafas reigns.

 

[H]

Oxymoron.

 

[Khalido]

[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=41305.msg1149523#msg1149523 date=1281098799]
[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149512#msg1149512 date=1281097207]
Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.
[/quote]

Viera had a lot of attacking involvement. He was far more often in the opposition box than any of our CMs bar Gerrard have been during the whole of Houlliers and Rafas reigns.
[/quote]

Viera & Petit...both defensive midfielders playing in the same wonderfully successful team. They were better passers than Mascherano, but apart from that both predominately defensive, Petit was orignally a centre half/left back and both Viera & Petits goal output was about 1 in 10.

 

[doctor_mac]

Petit sure was aptly named though. Tiny he was.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149520#msg1149520 date=1281098314]


Busquests is twice the passer Masher is. [/quote]


Mash is twice the defender. It works both way. Sadly Barca have a plethora of attacking talent which mean Busquets doesn't need to join in up top. We have added Cole and Jova to the mix, perhaps we just need to remove Lucas and use a player who can hurt teams in the attacking third.

Anyway I'm done with this Fox. I like Busquets anyway. Just think that all teams play with a defensive midfield player and we be should be no different. Yes it would be lovely to find a player who could defend and attack equally. Gerrard can, Essien can. That's about it. I think Masher and Lucas as a partnership is our problem not the fact Masher plays the odd wayward pass or doesn't score goals.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=41305.msg1149534#msg1149534 date=1281100269]
Petit sure was aptly named though. Tiny he was.
[/quote]

6CM

where everyone has the memory of an elephant...

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149533#msg1149533 date=1281100088]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=41305.msg1149523#msg1149523 date=1281098799]
[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149512#msg1149512 date=1281097207]
Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.
[/quote]

Viera had a lot of attacking involvement. He was far more often in the opposition box than any of our CMs bar Gerrard have been during the whole of Houlliers and Rafas reigns.
[/quote]

Viera & Petit...both defensive midfielders playing in the same wonderfully successful team. They were better passers than Mascherano, but apart from that both predominately defensive, Petit was orignally a centre half/left back and both Viera & Petits goal output was about 1 in 10.
[/quote]

First of all, I strongly disagree that they were both DMs. Vieira is a box to box CM in it's truest sense. Secondly, when was this? 1998? That's 12 years ago, how far back do you want to go? The game has moved on from then. Back then, most top teams played a 4-4-2.. nowadays everyone going for one upfront.. it's a different (tactical) game.

Regardless, I think there's probably just a difference in everyone's definitions of DM.

Some only define it as a player who sits in front of a defensive and anchors the midfielder in the Makelele type role. But then Pirlo does the same for Milan, so does he count as a DM? It's hard to say.

Some also extend the definiton of a DM player as someone who is primarily defensive minded and plays in the centre of midfield like a Petit/Carrick/Alonso. But then would you put them in the same player bracket as a Mascherano (ie they're all DMs?).

I think the thing here is to scrap definitions of positions and saying things such as "so and so played 0/1/2/3 DMs" and simply look at what each player brings to the table as a whole. You need a balance. Arsenal had it back then with Petit and Vieira who offered enough attacking prowess with their defensive steel to balance out the rest of their team.

Alternatively, United won 2 titles with Scholes and Carrick, neither one particularly great defensively, but good enough. They were also the right balance for the team they had around them.

With us, it's clear that Mascher offers very little going forward and you'd need a very specialist player with him to balance out his offensive deficiences. We had it when Alonso was here. We don't now.

And as he seems intent on leaving, I wouldn't be too perturbed if we didn't sign a player a specialised as him, but rather buy 2 players, good going both ways, who balanced out our current lack of creativity in midfield (and obviously the rest of the team).

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41305.msg1149548#msg1149548 date=1281101717]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=41305.msg1149534#msg1149534 date=1281100269]
Petit sure was aptly named though. Tiny he was.
[/quote]

6CM

where everyone has the memory of an elephant...
[/quote]

Yeah, he was only 6"1.

Christ, I totally forgot Chelsea bought him after Barca.

Plus:
In July 1998 Petit won £17,000 worth of francs on a fruit machine in a Monte Carlo hotel.[9]

Petit's squad number at all his clubs was 17.

 

[gene hughes]

I agree with Oncy and Fox and Brendan (to an extent). The term 'defensive midfielder' is confusing the issue. The problem isn't with having a midfielder who stays behind the ball all the time or takes up a central position in front of the centre halves when we lose the ball. The issue is whether that midfielder brings enough to the game when we have the ball ourselves. That's where I think Mascherano is limited and inferior to Didi, for example.

 

[gareth_thomas]

wow - this is an eye opening thread...

Firstly - Fox clearly dislikes Mascherano and as such is completely blinkered... some of the comments are fucking laughable.

Second ---- someone stated that Mascherano didnt feel that it was his place to try and provide some creativity?!?!? fucking hell he was always making runs because Lucas is completely incapable... Id understand people questioning Mascherano's attacking ability -- But to question his determination and will to win???? BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[manwithnoname]

So, summing up:

1) Mascherano is a top quality defensive midfielder

2) Lucas is shit

 

[gareth_thomas]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41305.msg1149604#msg1149604 date=1281105597]
So, summing up:

1) Mascherano is a top quality defensive midfielder

2) Lucas is shit
[/quote]

pretty much - My g/f who knows fuck all about Football but could sum that up after watching 5 games