Interesting 2 cents from Irish pundits

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41305.msg1149584#msg1149584 date=1281104585]
I agree with Oncy and Fox and Brendan (to an extent). The term 'defensive midfielder' is confusing the issue. The problem isn't with having a midfielder who stays behind the ball all the time or takes up a central position in front of the centre halves when we lose the ball. The issue is whether that midfielder brings enough to the game when we have the ball ourselves. That's where I think Mascherano is limited and inferior to Didi, for example.
[/quote]

I was as big a Didi fan as I am a Masher fan now, but I'm not sure Didi brought that much more to the team attacking-wise. He maybe could have done, but that's a rather different matter. The Kaiser admittedly scored one or two screamers in his time, but it was literally only one or two and we deployed him quite a bit more conservatively than was the case when he played for Germany.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41305.msg1149584#msg1149584 date=1281104585]
The issue is whether that midfielder brings enough to the game when we have the ball ourselves.
[/quote]

^^^

 

[gareth_thomas]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41305.msg1149612#msg1149612 date=1281106350]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=41305.msg1149584#msg1149584 date=1281104585]
The issue is whether that midfielder brings enough to the game when we have the ball ourselves.
[/quote]

^^^
[/quote]

you actually need the ball first...

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149442#msg1149442 date=1281093585]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41305.msg1149427#msg1149427 date=1281092703]
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.

Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.

What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]

So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????

Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS

He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money


[/quote]

The world rates him as a top class DM, which he is. No one is moronic enough to suggest Mascherano is a complete all round CM.

 

[Khalido]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=41305.msg1149549#msg1149549 date=1281101722]
[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149533#msg1149533 date=1281100088]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=41305.msg1149523#msg1149523 date=1281098799]
[quote author=Khalido link=topic=41305.msg1149512#msg1149512 date=1281097207]
Arguably, Arsenals finest ever midfield duo were Viera & Petit.......both DM's?, neither of them scored many goals and their passing wasn't what you'd call Alonso-esque.
[/quote]

Viera had a lot of attacking involvement. He was far more often in the opposition box than any of our CMs bar Gerrard have been during the whole of Houlliers and Rafas reigns.
[/quote]

Viera & Petit...both defensive midfielders playing in the same wonderfully successful team. They were better passers than Mascherano, but apart from that both predominately defensive, Petit was orignally a centre half/left back and both Viera & Petits goal output was about 1 in 10.
[/quote]

First of all, I strongly disagree that they were both DMs. Vieira is a box to box CM in it's truest sense. Secondly, when was this? 1998? That's 12 years ago, how far back do you want to go? The game has moved on from then. Back then, most top teams played a 4-4-2.. nowadays everyone going for one upfront.. it's a different (tactical) game.

Regardless, I think there's probably just a difference in everyone's definitions of DM.

Some only define it as a player who sits in front of a defensive and anchors the midfielder in the Makelele type role. But then Pirlo does the same for Milan, so does he count as a DM? It's hard to say.

Some also extend the definiton of a DM player as someone who is primarily defensive minded and plays in the centre of midfield like a Petit/Carrick/Alonso. But then would you put them in the same player bracket as a Mascherano (ie they're all DMs?).

I think the thing here is to scrap definitions of positions and saying things such as "so and so played 0/1/2/3 DMs" and simply look at what each player brings to the table as a whole. You need a balance. Arsenal had it back then with Petit and Vieira who offered enough attacking prowess with their defensive steel to balance out the rest of their team.

Alternatively, United won 2 titles with Scholes and Carrick, neither one particularly great defensively, but good enough. They were also the right balance for the team they had around them.

With us, it's clear that Mascher offers very little going forward and you'd need a very specialist player with him to balance out his offensive deficiences. We had it when Alonso was here. We don't now.

And as he seems intent on leaving, I wouldn't be too perturbed if we didn't sign a player a specialised as him, but rather buy 2 players, good going both ways, who balanced out our current lack of creativity in midfield (and obviously the rest of the team).
[/quote]

If a player operates in the "Holding role" they will fall into 2 catagories:

Deep lying playmaker (primary asset long range passing spreading the play/point of attack):
Alonso
Pirlo
Xabi
Carrick

Defensive mid (primary assets - tackling/intercepting/tracking runners from midfield/short passsing)
Hamann
Mascherano
Makele

Viera & Petit's main attributes were more akin to the defensive mid catagory. Anyway, my point is, regardless of whether you have 1 or even 2 defensive mids, its down to the quality of the wingers/strikers that count. We have not had anybody to the level of Pires/Overmars/Giggs/Robben/Malouda since John Barnes.

 

[zlatan18]

People saying Mascherano is shit are fucking deluded. He was one of our better performers last season and if he looked bad at all it was because he was doing his job aswell as lucas's job in a shit rafa benitez team.

 

[keniget]

I've quiffed the last couple pages so this might've already been said, but Masher is a much better footballer than people give him credit for.

 

[ILD]

You have quiffed but you're right.

 

[Judge Jules]

Absolutely. Some of the garbage spouted about Masher on here at times is just unreal.