in an ideal world mash would have someone beside him with the ability to tackle and create, a gerrard, a xabi. pairing mash with lucas (or another midfielder who offers little going forwards) is a recipe for disaster.
Interesting 2 cents from Irish pundits
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[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
Makelele is always used as this example, what happened in the world of football before he appeared to the world FFS
Lets just look at our club, look at the CMs of our past and tell me they contributed nothing going forward.
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
Viera, Petit, Keane, Fletcher, Scholes, Essien ??????
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
Makelele is always used as this example, what happened in the world of football before he appeared to the world FFS
Lets just look at our club, look at the CMs of our past and tell me they contributed nothing going forward.
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
Viera, Petit, Keane, Fletcher, Scholes, Essien ??????
[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149395#msg1149395 date=1281089908]
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
Makelele is always used as this example, what happened in the world of football before he appeared to the world FFS
Lets just look at our club, look at the CMs of our past and tell me they contributed nothing goi
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
Viera, Petit, Keane, Fletcher, Scholes, Essien ??????
[/quote]
Football has changed signifcantly over the past 20 years...
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
Makelele is always used as this example, what happened in the world of football before he appeared to the world FFS
Lets just look at our club, look at the CMs of our past and tell me they contributed nothing goi
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
Viera, Petit, Keane, Fletcher, Scholes, Essien ??????
[/quote]
Football has changed signifcantly over the past 20 years...
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41305.msg1149298#msg1149298 date=1281079200]
Mascherano was the only player *in* Argentina's midfield, and he was up against 5 Germans
They're halfwitted cunts
[/quote]
This.
They are not watched because of their thrilling insight are they. They are as much wind up merchants as they are commentators, its not so much that they dont hold their punches more they go out of their way to fight dirty, with an intriguing mix of sour anti englishness, outright Manc-ness and a fair slice of devilment.
Much much more interesting than watching Alan Shearer.
Mascherano was the only player *in* Argentina's midfield, and he was up against 5 Germans
They're halfwitted cunts
[/quote]
This.
They are not watched because of their thrilling insight are they. They are as much wind up merchants as they are commentators, its not so much that they dont hold their punches more they go out of their way to fight dirty, with an intriguing mix of sour anti englishness, outright Manc-ness and a fair slice of devilment.
Much much more interesting than watching Alan Shearer.
OK, I know Fox is considered one of the dimmest posters on the site, and I can't agree with his assertion that Masher isn't a very good player, but taking things objectively, there are points I agree with.
I DO think that every team needs at least one "holding/ defensive midfielder". Most teams have one. Mascherano is a very good one. This is indisuptable.
But he IS certainly pretty limited. He never scores goals and his passing is erratic. There are arguments that as a holding player, Didi Hamann, for example, was the more cultured and a better reader of the game.
And there is no reason why the holding player needs to be such a one-trick pony. Certainly, if you were to offer me the choice of a prime Vieira, or Essien, I'd take them in a fucking heartbeat over Mascherano.
I DO think that every team needs at least one "holding/ defensive midfielder". Most teams have one. Mascherano is a very good one. This is indisuptable.
But he IS certainly pretty limited. He never scores goals and his passing is erratic. There are arguments that as a holding player, Didi Hamann, for example, was the more cultured and a better reader of the game.
And there is no reason why the holding player needs to be such a one-trick pony. Certainly, if you were to offer me the choice of a prime Vieira, or Essien, I'd take them in a fucking heartbeat over Mascherano.
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149400#msg1149400 date=1281090100]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149395#msg1149395 date=1281089908]
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
Makelele is always used as this example, what happened in the world of football before he appeared to the world FFS
Lets just look at our club, look at the CMs of our past and tell me they contributed nothing goi
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
Viera, Petit, Keane, Fletcher, Scholes, Essien ??????
[/quote]
Football has changed signifcantly over the past 20 years...
[/quote]
So when Keane was UTDs defensive minded CM in their treble winning team and scored goals and made assists it was because the other players in midfield and up top were not as creative and "flair" like as today's players.
Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, OGS/Sherringham, Yorke,Cole
come on !!!
[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149395#msg1149395 date=1281089908]
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
Makelele is always used as this example, what happened in the world of football before he appeared to the world FFS
Lets just look at our club, look at the CMs of our past and tell me they contributed nothing goi
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
Viera, Petit, Keane, Fletcher, Scholes, Essien ??????
[/quote]
Football has changed signifcantly over the past 20 years...
[/quote]
So when Keane was UTDs defensive minded CM in their treble winning team and scored goals and made assists it was because the other players in midfield and up top were not as creative and "flair" like as today's players.
Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, OGS/Sherringham, Yorke,Cole
come on !!!
[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149395#msg1149395 date=1281089908]
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
[/quote]
Busquets does for Barcelona. Mikel has done it for Chelsea.
Fox, Masher is an excellent player. One of the best in his role as a defensive midfielder. We had Alonso beside him two years ago, we finished second and scored the most goals in the league. They scored 4/5 goals between them. It doesn't matter who scores our goals. We don't expect Masher to be banging them in with the positions he takes up on the pitch. Perhaps the player beside him could help chip in. Alonso didn't but he gave us other qualities. Lucas didn't as he is a limited player. Perhaps Masher deserved to have a better partner last season. It would be nice if he could contribute more going forward obviously, but let's not claim he isn't a wonderful player in his own right.
[quote author=gareth_thomas link=topic=41305.msg1149384#msg1149384 date=1281088947]
Mascherano's passing is fucking nowhere near as bad as some on here claim...
Football teams need defensive midfielders to clean up after those exciting yet lazy creative types.. They have a time and a place where they should be used and DM's have been incredibly important for most of the top clubs over the last decade... Some managers simply know how and when to use them...
Playing against shite teams that have no interest in attacking is one of those times where having a dedicated Defensive midfielder is kinda pointless. At points last season only Mascherano was trying to create something - This doesnt highlight Mascherano as a shite player - This highlights that he is a born winner that hates to lose and the rest of our squad needed a kick in the head..
Makelele was incredibly important for Real Madrid when they dominated - He was then instrumental in Chelsea's growth..
[/quote]
For the young guys lets just look at the premier league days, apart from the always used Claude who else was a player with such a limited benefit to their team going forward and played for the champions?
[/quote]
Busquets does for Barcelona. Mikel has done it for Chelsea.
Fox, Masher is an excellent player. One of the best in his role as a defensive midfielder. We had Alonso beside him two years ago, we finished second and scored the most goals in the league. They scored 4/5 goals between them. It doesn't matter who scores our goals. We don't expect Masher to be banging them in with the positions he takes up on the pitch. Perhaps the player beside him could help chip in. Alonso didn't but he gave us other qualities. Lucas didn't as he is a limited player. Perhaps Masher deserved to have a better partner last season. It would be nice if he could contribute more going forward obviously, but let's not claim he isn't a wonderful player in his own right.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
That we should sell him cause he isn't giving us enough going forward? That was his point in a previous thread anyway.
Why not play Masher and Aqualani. One defending, one attacking.
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
That we should sell him cause he isn't giving us enough going forward? That was his point in a previous thread anyway.
Why not play Masher and Aqualani. One defending, one attacking.
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
And just because he wants to go, does not mean that when we sell him that we have to replace him with a 'like for like' player. Finding a decent DM will be an easier/cheaper job than finding a decent all-rounder box to box player though.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41305.msg1149427#msg1149427 date=1281092703]
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]
So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????
Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS
He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]
So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????
Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS
He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Keane, Carrick, Hargreaves and now Fletcher have all operated in what is essentially a defensive/ holding midfield role when needed
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Keane, Carrick, Hargreaves and now Fletcher have all operated in what is essentially a defensive/ holding midfield role when needed
[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149442#msg1149442 date=1281093585]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41305.msg1149427#msg1149427 date=1281092703]
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]
So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????
Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS
He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money
[/quote]
WOW WOW WOW. Fletcher??? THATS A FUCKING JOKE!!! SURELY???
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41305.msg1149427#msg1149427 date=1281092703]
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]
So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????
Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS
He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money
[/quote]
WOW WOW WOW. Fletcher??? THATS A FUCKING JOKE!!! SURELY???
No he isn't.
What? Didi IS A FUCKING DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER.
What's that got to do with Steve McMahon? And more interestingly, where is this player? I'd like us to sign him.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[quote author=Fox link=topic=41305.msg1149442#msg1149442 date=1281093585]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41305.msg1149427#msg1149427 date=1281092703]
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]
So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????
Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS
He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money
[/quote]
Yeah thats correct. We rate him that hih because he has to go all the way back to argentina to play his internationals. That is something which shouldnt be underrated.
If you think Fletcher is just as good as Mascherano, I will let you do so. However in my book, and in my world for that matter, they are miles apart in their game. Mascherano is a monster footballer, while Fletcher is just a mediocre arsehole who I wouldnt pay moeny to watch.
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41305.msg1149427#msg1149427 date=1281092703]
Mascherano is one of the best DM's in the world simple.
Is he a brilliant all round CM? No, but we don't need him to be. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a great passing range, again, we don't need him to.
What we need him to do is break down the opposition play and win the ball back for us, he needs to have bags of energy to keep this up for 90mins. Once he's got the ball play it to someone who can do something with it. That's what you need from a DM, and he does it better than anyone else. For a more all round CM maybe it takes more discipline to do that, for Mascherano perhaps its easier as that's what defines him as a player. I'd love for him to change his mind and want to stay. But if he wants to go, just because he's so good at what he does, it doesn't make him irreplaceable.
[/quote]
So why does the football world rate him as £30 million, cause he is an argie ????
Darren Fletcher is just as good FFS
He is good but not world class CM. We can replace him with a Steve Mcmahon/Didi type player for a lot less money
[/quote]
Yeah thats correct. We rate him that hih because he has to go all the way back to argentina to play his internationals. That is something which shouldnt be underrated.
If you think Fletcher is just as good as Mascherano, I will let you do so. However in my book, and in my world for that matter, they are miles apart in their game. Mascherano is a monster footballer, while Fletcher is just a mediocre arsehole who I wouldnt pay moeny to watch.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Oncey, Oncey, Oncey......Busquets was spains DM during the world cup as he is at Barca. And im not going to mention the scums ones coz ive just seen Brendans post below.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Oncey, Oncey, Oncey......Busquets was spains DM during the world cup as he is at Barca. And im not going to mention the scums ones coz ive just seen Brendans post below.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41305.msg1149447#msg1149447 date=1281093827]
No he isn't.
What? Didi IS A FUCKING DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER.
What's that got to do with Steve McMahon? And more interestingly, where is this player? I'd like us to sign him.
[/quote]
I think he is playing for Liverpool Legen.I think we have to sell Mascher to fund his transfer.
No he isn't.
What? Didi IS A FUCKING DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER.
What's that got to do with Steve McMahon? And more interestingly, where is this player? I'd like us to sign him.
[/quote]
I think he is playing for Liverpool Legen.I think we have to sell Mascher to fund his transfer.
Oncey and Fox. What a partnership.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41305.msg1149445#msg1149445 date=1281093718]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Keane, Carrick, Hargreaves and now Fletcher have all operated in what is essentially a defensive/ holding midfield role when needed
[/quote]yes I know. And none of those are DM's like Mascherano is a DM. Maybe Keane but like I said that was years ago.
They play two CM who can defend. That's all I'm saying.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Keane, Carrick, Hargreaves and now Fletcher have all operated in what is essentially a defensive/ holding midfield role when needed
[/quote]yes I know. And none of those are DM's like Mascherano is a DM. Maybe Keane but like I said that was years ago.
They play two CM who can defend. That's all I'm saying.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41305.msg1149448#msg1149448 date=1281093828]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[/quote]I know mate. But busquets and alonso are not DM's. They are as good going forward as holding.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[/quote]I know mate. But busquets and alonso are not DM's. They are as good going forward as holding.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41305.msg1149448#msg1149448 date=1281093828]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[/quote]
To be fair though. They can play quite a bit, as can Fletcher (though less so).
Mascher is very specialised in what he does. Whilst I think that teams need a more defensive minded centre midfield player, I don't think all teams necessarily need a Mascherano.
I think we'd be better served with an Essien type player next to Gerrard. Not as good defensively as Mascher, but adds a fair bit more going forward especially with passing.
In very simple terms I view..
Mascher like 10/10 defensively and a 3/10 offensively. Essien a 8/10 defensively, 7/10 offensively. Busquets (D:7/10, O:6.5/10). Xabi (D:7/10 O: 7.5/10)
United have won the league in recent seasons with players who i'd rate as:
Carrick (D:6/10, O:7/10)
Scholes (D:5/10, O: 8.5/10)
Anderson (D:5/10, O:7/10)
Fletcher (D:8/10, O:6/10)
I think the Makeleles' and Mascheranos' are an outdated breed of players. Not essential in the sense that you want healthy balance in the midfield with players offering something going both ways.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets is a DM and Alonso was also employed as a deep lying midfielder with defensive responsibilities.
[/quote]
To be fair though. They can play quite a bit, as can Fletcher (though less so).
Mascher is very specialised in what he does. Whilst I think that teams need a more defensive minded centre midfield player, I don't think all teams necessarily need a Mascherano.
I think we'd be better served with an Essien type player next to Gerrard. Not as good defensively as Mascher, but adds a fair bit more going forward especially with passing.
In very simple terms I view..
Mascher like 10/10 defensively and a 3/10 offensively. Essien a 8/10 defensively, 7/10 offensively. Busquets (D:7/10, O:6.5/10). Xabi (D:7/10 O: 7.5/10)
United have won the league in recent seasons with players who i'd rate as:
Carrick (D:6/10, O:7/10)
Scholes (D:5/10, O: 8.5/10)
Anderson (D:5/10, O:7/10)
Fletcher (D:8/10, O:6/10)
I think the Makeleles' and Mascheranos' are an outdated breed of players. Not essential in the sense that you want healthy balance in the midfield with players offering something going both ways.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41305.msg1149455#msg1149455 date=1281094175]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[/quote]
Was it not busquets that was substituted for fabregas in the final? Who was instrumental in Spain getting the winner. Before the substitution the game was a stalemate.
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149441#msg1149441 date=1281093559]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=41305.msg1149428#msg1149428 date=1281092767]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=41305.msg1149421#msg1149421 date=1281092288]
I agree with Fox.
[/quote]
I very much doubt you'd be saying that if he'd come out and declared his commitment to the club.
[/quote]Maybe I didn't understand his point? I'm not talking about mascherano (who I love and would love to stay) I'm talking about the preconceptions amongst the modern fan that all teams MUST play a DM.
United havnt played with one for years. Spain just won the world cup without one..
I would rather lose the six games against arsenal and man ute and Chelsea every year and thrash everyone else to take the title as wunited did for three years than be resolute and take our share of the points vs the big three and fail to break down hull and Stoke because we insist on pragmatic midfielders to the max.
Certainly Lucas is part of the problem but sonto is playing a Dm who offers nothing going forward against a team with 10 men behind the ball.
[/quote]
Busquets was the defensive midfielder for Spain in the world cup. He kept Cesc out of the team with Alonso and Xavi in front of them. I agree about our formation against the lesser teams. However, that doesn't mean we don't also need a player who's role is to provide cover as a defensive midfielder. If we played Aqua and Gerrard in there, Stevie would have to hold at times to provide a defensive shield thus eliminating his goal threat. It would be lovely to have a CM who is also quality going forward but I wouldn't sell off Masher to chase a player just because he is better on the ball. Parker is better on the ball and I bet he didn't even score 5 league goals last year. I'm not worried about Masher limitations going forward as long as the player beside him can provide this.
[/quote]
Was it not busquets that was substituted for fabregas in the final? Who was instrumental in Spain getting the winner. Before the substitution the game was a stalemate.
Fabregas came on for Alonso in the final.
Busquets is not the most visible of Spains players, but he does a very good job covering for people better at passing and moving. It would be very interesting to see where Cesc would fit in that Barca midfield, as clearly Iniesta and Xavi are rated above him.
S
Squiggles
Guest
The bottom line is Masher works well with creativity alongside him or in front of him. He didn't have this last season and it hurt us. And it's a shame he wants to leave, because he'd fit much better into a side containing Cole, Gerrard, Aquilani, etc. Last year we needed a more all-rounded player in the middle to compensate for Xabi's departure and Aquilani's injuries. This year I'm not so sure.
But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
But fuck it, after the disrespect he's shown Liverpool and Hodgson he can fuck off as far as I'm concerned, as can Lucas.
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